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nkelsch wrote:
GW has always said 2/3rds of their customers never play the game and only buy the models for collecting or display.

This is one of those stats I'd love to hear them justify, given the huge amounts of market research they do...

It also seems quite misleading - after all, someone buying the odd model every now and then to paint up because they like the sculpt, or plan on entering Golden Demon, is in no way going to measure up in terms of sales with someone putting together an army.

 Dysartes wrote:
This is one of those stats I'd love to hear them justify, given the huge amounts of market research they do...

It makes sense. Don't forget that the 2/3 includes the kids buying a single box of space marines before abandoning the hobby a week later, not just people who are regular customers but choose not to play the game.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
This is one of those stats I'd love to hear them justify, given the huge amounts of market research they do...

It makes sense. Don't forget that the 2/3 includes the kids buying a single box of space marines before abandoning the hobby a week later, not just people who are regular customers but choose not to play the game.

Good point, maybe they can say that as long as they don't try to say 2/3rds of sales are to people who never play. It's kinda bull in that people who buy 1 box and never actually enter the hobby shouldn't count, but technically they ARE customers.

You have to wonder why they don't get into the hobby properly if that is the case though, are GW doing a worse job of expanding the hobby than even the most jaded of us think, or is the business model of selling to 12 year olds just that bad?

 jonolikespie wrote:
You have to wonder why they don't get into the hobby properly if that is the case though, are GW doing a worse job of expanding the hobby than even the most jaded of us think, or is the business model of selling to 12 year olds just that bad?

People drop out of every hobby without getting very far. It's just inevitable, there will always be people who make the initial purchase but decide (for various reasons) that they aren't interested in it after all. It's just a bit more obvious in something like GW games, where there's a lot of up-front investment before you can start playing. If you buy a battleforce, assemble half of it, and throw it in the trash when you realize you aren't having any fun you're never going to play a game and you get to count in the 2/3.

 Dysartes wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
GW has always said 2/3rds of their customers never play the game and only buy the models for collecting or display.

This is one of those stats I'd love to hear them justify, given the huge amounts of market research they do...

It also seems quite misleading - after all, someone buying the odd model every now and then to paint up because they like the sculpt, or plan on entering Golden Demon, is in no way going to measure up in terms of sales with someone putting together an army.

There are people at the store I play at that I've never seen play, but are always hanging around converting models that wind up in the store's display case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Empchild wrote:
Question BTW is the Kent store run by Jared Ramm?

Yeah, Jared still 'runs' the store, as he's the only employee left after the Kent store went down to a one man operation about a month ago.

 Dysartes wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
GW has always said 2/3rds of their customers never play the game and only buy the models for collecting or display.

This is one of those stats I'd love to hear them justify, given the huge amounts of market research they do...

It also seems quite misleading - after all, someone buying the odd model every now and then to paint up because they like the sculpt, or plan on entering Golden Demon, is in no way going to measure up in terms of sales with someone putting together an army.

There are people at the store I play at that I've never seen play, but are always hanging around converting models that wind up in the store's display case.

Yeah, I have to agree... I know these people exist, it is not far-fetched. Also, Wargaming is not at all a 'jump into the pool' hobby. It takes a good 6 months of prep work for many to even begin to dip their toe in and begin gaming. I know many people who buy models, build armies based upon what models they like and 'COULD' play if they wanted but don't, either due to time restrictions, or that they enjoy making models more than playing. Some of the new titans and larger kits seems to be an attempt to break into the modeler market like Gundam people who like to build large display tanks and robots and shelf display them.

While I am not sure 2/3rds of their customers never play the game, I do believe there is a sizeable group who never play a single GW game but do buy and collect large number of GW models. If GW could build a total business model of those people and dump the gamer, I believe they would in a heartbeat.

Mikhaila - "At this time, nearly every hobby game retailer in the US is working on increasing their Organized Play, and trying to get more space for it. OP is the driving force behind many successful games. You only have to look at MTG to see a hugely successful example. For two decades i followed GW's lead in running events, leagues, classes, and having a good number of gaming tables available with good scenery. It worked. Sales increased dramatically.

Having gaming space in a store attracts more gamers, for longer hours. This is a major form of advertising for the store. And the more hours a gamer is in the store, the more they buy. Organized Play programs are a huge thing now in the success of many hobby/game stores."

Warhammer isn't a game, it's a hobby that happens to have a game attached to it. You can't have a painting contest with Magic the Gathering cards, and while there are some collectors, the large majority are players.

Warhammer has numerous collectors who never play. Ever. We have no clue what the percentage might be, as they don't go to a store and hang around for 8 hours, three times a week. They walk in, make a purchase, leave and don't come back until they want a new model.

It's nice to have a store to go to that has tables to play, although there are numerous advantages to playing at home as well.

Golf is a hobby. Bowling is a hobby. There are numerous places you can buy equipment, that don't supply the venue to play. You have to go elsewhere to use the equipment you just bought. The large advantage with Warhammer, is that even if there isn't a game store with 20 tables nearby, there is always your house, or somebody elses house.

anchorbine wrote:
Mikhaila - "At this time, nearly every hobby game retailer in the US is working on increasing their Organized Play, and trying to get more space for it. OP is the driving force behind many successful games. You only have to look at MTG to see a hugely successful example. For two decades i followed GW's lead in running events, leagues, classes, and having a good number of gaming tables available with good scenery. It worked. Sales increased dramatically.

Having gaming space in a store attracts more gamers, for longer hours. This is a major form of advertising for the store. And the more hours a gamer is in the store, the more they buy. Organized Play programs are a huge thing now in the success of many hobby/game stores."

Warhammer isn't a game, it's a hobby that happens to have a game attached to it. You can't have a painting contest with Magic the Gathering cards, and while there are some collectors, the large majority are players.

Warhammer has numerous collectors who never play. Ever. We have no clue what the percentage might be, as they don't go to a store and hang around for 8 hours, three times a week. They walk in, make a purchase, leave and don't come back until they want a new model.

It's nice to have a store to go to that has tables to play, although there are numerous advantages to playing at home as well.

Golf is a hobby. Bowling is a hobby. There are numerous places you can buy equipment, that don't supply the venue to play. You have to go elsewhere to use the equipment you just bought. The large advantage with Warhammer, is that even if there isn't a game store with 20 tables nearby, there is always your house, or somebody elses house.

This reeks of apologist propaganda.

Warhammer is most certainly a GAME. Miniature wargaming is the hobby it falls under. "Warhammer" is not a hobby in itself, despite what GW wants people to think. Warhammer would be a hobby if no other 28mm miniatures games existed. But they do. GW is not the only name in wargaming.

And you cannot compare wargaming to golf and bowling. Both of those games require vast amounts of space, and massive overhead. Table space is not even close to comparable. Even then, both of those venues sell product.

If GW doesn't want to be in the LGS market and do what is required for an LGS to be successful, then they should just close all of their stores and leave the retailing to those with the inclination for it.

Depressing news, that was a great place to play. Won my first tournament there last year as well.

I'm curious to see how big of a remodel takes place, as the Bunker has had a couple of shapes over the past few years. But still in the end, it's definitely keeping me away. Still doing my playing at the Supermall.

From what I can tell, it's going to have a whopping 3 game tables. I'm wondering how many of those will be 4x4s.

 Aerethan wrote:



This reeks of apologist propaganda.

Warhammer is most certainly a GAME. Miniature wargaming is the hobby it falls under. "Warhammer" is not a hobby in itself, despite what GW wants people to think. Warhammer would be a hobby if no other 28mm miniatures games existed. But they do. GW is not the only name in wargaming.

And you cannot compare wargaming to golf and bowling. Both of those games require vast amounts of space, and massive overhead. Table space is not even close to comparable. Even then, both of those venues sell product.

If GW doesn't want to be in the LGS market and do what is required for an LGS to be successful, then they should just close all of their stores and leave the retailing to those with the inclination for it.

I guess I could call out that your post reeks of "typical GW gaming board hate" but I won't, as you are certainly entitled to voice your opinion, as am I.

They are doing exactly what is required to be a successful brick and mortar retailer, they are closing down their non-performing, oversized bottom line eating stores. I get that everybody is passionate about their hobby and feels GW "owes" them gaming space, but they don't. I could list dozens of formerly successful retailers of various products that are no longer in business. Bigger, better and shinier means nothing if the bottom line is bleeding. GW evaluated their game plan and decided that devoting retail space to gaming didn't give them the returns on the square footage they were paying for. I own and operate my own business. I understand all of the various expenses that come with running said business. Do you own and operate your own business? How many stores have you managed where you had access to the P & L's?

GameKeeper ran a successful hobby game type store for years, until Wizards of the Coast bought them out. Wizards broadened the store base, opened shinier and bigger stores, and then failed miserably, closing all of their stores. Hasbro bought Wizards. Magic thrives, with zero branded stores. GW is taking necessary steps to maintain some sort of brick and mortar presence. It may not be the presence you want, but it's a model that they think will ensure some level of profitability moving forward.

You can call it "apologist propaganda", I call it "business reality".

 Moopy wrote:
From what I can tell, it's going to have a whopping 3 game tables. I'm wondering how many of those will be 4x4s.

Are they getting rid of the original back room area as well? Before the big expansion, they had the front room of about 2-3 4x4s, and then a back room with about 8 standard tables. If they roll back to that, it will be alright and not overly crushing. Still sucky, but at least not AS sucky.

The Supermall has usually 4 regular tables for standard gaming, 1 4x4 for demos and 1 kinda in between table.

anchorbine wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:



This reeks of apologist propaganda.

Warhammer is most certainly a GAME. Miniature wargaming is the hobby it falls under. "Warhammer" is not a hobby in itself, despite what GW wants people to think. Warhammer would be a hobby if no other 28mm miniatures games existed. But they do. GW is not the only name in wargaming.

And you cannot compare wargaming to golf and bowling. Both of those games require vast amounts of space, and massive overhead. Table space is not even close to comparable. Even then, both of those venues sell product.

If GW doesn't want to be in the LGS market and do what is required for an LGS to be successful, then they should just close all of their stores and leave the retailing to those with the inclination for it.

I guess I could call out that your post reeks of "typical GW gaming board hate" but I won't, as you are certainly entitled to voice your opinion, as am I.

They are doing exactly what is required to be a successful brick and mortar retailer, they are closing down their non-performing, oversized bottom line eating stores. I get that everybody is passionate about their hobby and feels GW "owes" them gaming space, but they don't. I could list dozens of formerly successful retailers of various products that are no longer in business. Bigger, better and shinier means nothing if the bottom line is bleeding. GW evaluated their game plan and decided that devoting retail space to gaming didn't give them the returns on the square footage they were paying for. I own and operate my own business. I understand all of the various expenses that come with running said business. Do you own and operate your own business? How many stores have you managed where you had access to the P & L's?

GameKeeper ran a successful hobby game type store for years, until Wizards of the Coast bought them out. Wizards broadened the store base, opened shinier and bigger stores, and then failed miserably, closing all of their stores. Hasbro bought Wizards. Magic thrives, with zero branded stores. GW is taking necessary steps to maintain some sort of brick and mortar presence. It may not be the presence you want, but it's a model that they think will ensure some level of profitability moving forward.

You can call it "apologist propaganda", I call it "business reality".

GW's very store system is what is is failing them. Name a single independent LGS that sells ONLY GW product. There isn't a single one out there. They understand that a single game system alone cannot account for 100% of their revenue. For many, MTG is their bread and butter and allows them to keep the lights on, then the other product lines allow actual profit.

But why should MTG players buy at an LGS? As you said, it's a game that can be played at home just like Warhammer. And afterall, Target and Wal Mart sell packs for the same price if not less than LGS's. They buy there because that is a hub for local players to meet up for games. They spend their free time there, buying up soda and chips, getting random packs to pass the time or whatever. Keeping those players in the store exposes them to the OTHER products that they may end up buying.

Wargaming is a community hobby. It's not a single player game. Sure there are those who don't play, and they are by far the exception, not the rule. Community hobbyists need places to meet up and hang out, and spend their money.

GW's stores offer very little in the way of community support on the whole. Some stores are better, mine being included. But where GW fails in a market, others flourish because they understand the LGS retail market better than GW does.

The LA Bunker closed. In it's stead, a new LGS is popping up not far from where the GW store was to take it's place, and it will sell plenty of other products, and likely do well because GW left a massive void.

GW's retail strategy is inherently flawed.

 curran12 wrote:

 Moopy wrote:
From what I can tell, it's going to have a whopping 3 game tables. I'm wondering how many of those will be 4x4s.

Are they getting rid of the original back room area as well? Before the big expansion, they had the front room of about 2-3 4x4s, and then a back room with about 8 standard tables. If they roll back to that, it will be alright and not overly crushing. Still sucky, but at least not AS sucky.

Excellent question as I don't really know. I remember their stock room was in the back and so were the bathrooms and I REALLY don't think they're going to cut off access to the restrooms or change the position of them. I'm hoping they go back to their original rectangular space, but it sound smaller than that. : /

anchorbine wrote:
Mikhaila - "At this time, nearly every hobby game retailer in the US is working on increasing their Organized Play, and trying to get more space for it. OP is the driving force behind many successful games. You only have to look at MTG to see a hugely successful example. For two decades i followed GW's lead in running events, leagues, classes, and having a good number of gaming tables available with good scenery. It worked. Sales increased dramatically.

Having gaming space in a store attracts more gamers, for longer hours. This is a major form of advertising for the store. And the more hours a gamer is in the store, the more they buy. Organized Play programs are a huge thing now in the success of many hobby/game stores."

Warhammer isn't a game, it's a hobby that happens to have a game attached to it. You can't have a painting contest with Magic the Gathering cards, and while there are some collectors, the large majority are players.

Warhammer has numerous collectors who never play. Ever. We have no clue what the percentage might be, as they don't go to a store and hang around for 8 hours, three times a week. They walk in, make a purchase, leave and don't come back until they want a new model.

It's nice to have a store to go to that has tables to play, although there are numerous advantages to playing at home as well.

Golf is a hobby. Bowling is a hobby. There are numerous places you can buy equipment, that don't supply the venue to play. You have to go elsewhere to use the equipment you just bought. The large advantage with Warhammer, is that even if there isn't a game store with 20 tables nearby, there is always your house, or somebody elses house.

Warhammer is a game associated with the wargaming hobby. It is not any different then any of the other hundreds of games out there ready to get your money. Your play on words is noted, but unneeded.

The difference is in the collective mentality of nongaming CEO/ bean counters and company in trying to squeeze blood from a stone and then P/O ing the consumer base by questionable business practices.This is the same company that pulled out finecrap and directly shoved it to us for no other reason then they could, then when it blew up in their faces they silently changed alternative.

GW started out a wargaming gaming company and then regressed to a useless business conglomerate with such a questionable overhead.. The fact that they have decided almost yearly to give themselves a raise on the backs of fans and satellite stores speaks volumes to the mentality of entitlement.

Combine that with a "yearly price hike/ gouge", and it only stands to reason why they are opening and closing stores, gaming centers, hobby stores, or whatever they want to call them.

Gaming stores are no big deal. It takes a solid product, a good audience with cash to spend, and a desire to play a game. The other stuff is window dressing with a solid bunch of parasites gouging the heck out of the store owner.

The issue can go directly to discussion of the whopping one or two distributors that have developed the monopoly on game stores, the other is the pricing, then the third is the overinflated value of the products being sold. Wiz-kids, FF, GW, PP- I'm looking at you for that reason alone why a POS prepainted or soft plastic game piece with the same quality as a .25 cent gumball machine crackerjack ring.

You'll quickly snatch it up though to the tune of 15-20 bucks.

 Moopy wrote:

Excellent question as I don't really know. I remember their stock room was in the back and so were the bathrooms and I REALLY don't think they're going to cut off access to the restrooms or change the position of them. I'm hoping they go back to their original rectangular space, but it sound smaller than that. : /

From a sheer physical standpoint, the space is very awkwardly shaped. The original layout was a long, rather narrow rectangle all the way to the back of the building. I would be surprised if they lose that back area since it isn't something that can easily be put to use for any neighboring business.

 curran12 wrote:

 Moopy wrote:
From what I can tell, it's going to have a whopping 3 game tables. I'm wondering how many of those will be 4x4s.

Are they getting rid of the original back room area as well? Before the big expansion, they had the front room of about 2-3 4x4s, and then a back room with about 8 standard tables. If they roll back to that, it will be alright and not overly crushing. Still sucky, but at least not AS sucky.

The Supermall has usually 4 regular tables for standard gaming, 1 4x4 for demos and 1 kinda in between table.

I would hope so. They might be able to even have some tournaments once in a while if they had the back area. From the sound of the message though, it sounds like it will only be the front room, which is disappointing.

That was the only store I played 40k at. I had played there since 4th edition. Guess I will try and see if there is a good 40k community at Games and Gizmos then.

 curran12 wrote:

 Moopy wrote:

Excellent question as I don't really know. I remember their stock room was in the back and so were the bathrooms and I REALLY don't think they're going to cut off access to the restrooms or change the position of them. I'm hoping they go back to their original rectangular space, but it sound smaller than that. : /

From a sheer physical standpoint, the space is very awkwardly shaped. The original layout was a long, rather narrow rectangle all the way to the back of the building. I would be surprised if they lose that back area since it isn't something that can easily be put to use for any neighboring business.

I spoke with one of the guys that works there and was told that they're putting up a wall where the arch is. Everything past that will be converted to storage until the lease is up.

The Supermall is still pretty solid for gaming, at least when I go there. What I'd really like is something to really invigorate the Fantasy/40k at Card Kingdom, as I've had terrible luck finding games there on a regular basis.

 undertow wrote:

 curran12 wrote:

 Moopy wrote:

Excellent question as I don't really know. I remember their stock room was in the back and so were the bathrooms and I REALLY don't think they're going to cut off access to the restrooms or change the position of them. I'm hoping they go back to their original rectangular space, but it sound smaller than that. : /

From a sheer physical standpoint, the space is very awkwardly shaped. The original layout was a long, rather narrow rectangle all the way to the back of the building. I would be surprised if they lose that back area since it isn't something that can easily be put to use for any neighboring business.

I spoke with one of the guys that works there and was told that they're putting up a wall where the arch is. Everything past that will be converted to storage until the lease is up.

Ug. So, smaller tables.

 undertow wrote:

I spoke with one of the guys that works there and was told that they're putting up a wall where the arch is. Everything past that will be converted to storage until the lease is up.

And it looks like I'm done with the Bunker.

Good times, but no longer for me.

Pretty much. I'd go there to get some Black Library books and the occasional direct release if I don't want to pay shipping. Pretty much all other purchases are going to Games & Gizmoes or WarStore.

How is Games and Gizmos for pickup games anyway?

When I worked there we had 4 shelves in the back and a small table that was namely for us to eat lunch at (and a microwave). 99.9% of the inventory is loaded directly to the shelves as there was seldom ever "stock" in the stock room.

 brassangel wrote:
They are minimizing their store presence everywhere, and not because they are struggling financially. GW as a whole, that is. The stores just don't bring people in like they used to, and several of their Sales and Marketing higher-ups have stated they want to move more of the gaming itself into the FLGS. Their own store fronts will be introductory, educational, and nothing more. This allows them to devote more resources to the online and eContent, as well as pumping the releases out every other month for each system. The tournament organizers, FLGS campaigns, and gaming clubs will drive the hobby.

Ummmm....from where I am sitting GW is doing plenty to alienate the LGSs as well. Offering more and more products direct purchase only, suddenly limiting print runs of books and not delivering ordered product to stores with customers that want them, generally doing everything they can to push people away from any place with a discount or that would keep GW from getting 100% of the sales profits from products. Meanwhile they are chopping down their stores to one person stores where the hours are so pointless they may as well close the store entirely. A few years ago my local GW store moved from a local mall, with typcial 10am-9pm hours Monday through Saturday and 12pm-6pm on Sunday with about 8 fullsized tables to a barely half wide store in a strip mall with the store barely open 5 hours each day, maybe 8 hours on Saturday. The mall location was also easily accessible from a lot of highways making it easier to get to for someone like me who was coming a distance to go, while the new location is buried in an urban/suburban crossover zone with so much traffic it is insane. It started taking me twice as long to get there *and* half the times I tried to go to the new location the store was closed, first because I didn't expect the store to be closed at 1:30pm on an afternoon, and other times because the single employee was sick and couldn't open the store. I stopped bothering because the trip was so irritating and made more so but not knowing if the store would even be open when I got there.

Riiiight. Has nothing to do with the fact that people don't support the stores either; they go to the shop their buddy owns, or shop at a no-service online discount retailer. GW is still growing and making money, but the Bunkers themselves are just a sieve.

Growing? Really? GW is doing the opposite of growing. They are seeing growing profits, yes, but only because they keep raising prices on consistently falling sales volumes. Eventually they won't be able to make the prices high enough to cover the decreased sales and still have any sales volume at all. That is not growth. That is a death spiral that they really need to fix.

Skriker

 curran12 wrote:
How is Games and Gizmos for pickup games anyway?

There's (currently) not a lot of people hanging around looking for games, but if you go with a friend you'll have a great time. Now that the Bunker's dying, the amount of 40kers might go up. Call a head because on their D&D night and MTG night, they're packed to the rim and you won't find play space.

anchorbine wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:



This reeks of apologist propaganda.

Warhammer is most certainly a GAME. Miniature wargaming is the hobby it falls under. "Warhammer" is not a hobby in itself, despite what GW wants people to think. Warhammer would be a hobby if no other 28mm miniatures games existed. But they do. GW is not the only name in wargaming.

And you cannot compare wargaming to golf and bowling. Both of those games require vast amounts of space, and massive overhead. Table space is not even close to comparable. Even then, both of those venues sell product.

If GW doesn't want to be in the LGS market and do what is required for an LGS to be successful, then they should just close all of their stores and leave the retailing to those with the inclination for it.

I guess I could call out that your post reeks of "typical GW gaming board hate" but I won't, as you are certainly entitled to voice your opinion, as am I.

They are doing exactly what is required to be a successful brick and mortar retailer, they are closing down their non-performing, oversized bottom line eating stores. I get that everybody is passionate about their hobby and feels GW "owes" them gaming space, but they don't. I could list dozens of formerly successful retailers of various products that are no longer in business. Bigger, better and shinier means nothing if the bottom line is bleeding. GW evaluated their game plan and decided that devoting retail space to gaming didn't give them the returns on the square footage they were paying for. I own and operate my own business. I understand all of the various expenses that come with running said business. Do you own and operate your own business? How many stores have you managed where you had access to the P & L's?

GameKeeper ran a successful hobby game type store for years, until Wizards of the Coast bought them out. Wizards broadened the store base, opened shinier and bigger stores, and then failed miserably, closing all of their stores. Hasbro bought Wizards. Magic thrives, with zero branded stores. GW is taking necessary steps to maintain some sort of brick and mortar presence. It may not be the presence you want, but it's a model that they think will ensure some level of profitability moving forward.

You can call it "apologist propaganda", I call it "business reality".

Wizards sunk their bottom line not with square feet, but in what malls those square feet were placed (a+ Malls vs Shopping centers), and how their shelf space was used (LANs vs actual product).

Gamers don't mind going out of the way to game. Get in a centralized location, but a little off the beaten path, and get good signage. The lower rental will allow for table space. Table space builds a community; which brings more custom to your shop.

The one man store i went to regularly is supposed to close at the end of July. I now will have to make an extra 30min drive to the Chicago bunker as the next closest place. But then again many people i now have been talking about starting a game club.

mr.man_lightning wrote:
The one man store i went to regularly is supposed to close at the end of July. I now will have to make an extra 30min drive to the Chicago bunker as the next closest place. But then again many people i now have been talking about starting a game club.

I give it 6 months before the Chicago Bunker is closed as well, seeing as that was about how long between the 2 West coast ones closing.

 Aerethan wrote:

mr.man_lightning wrote:
The one man store i went to regularly is supposed to close at the end of July. I now will have to make an extra 30min drive to the Chicago bunker as the next closest place. But then again many people i now have been talking about starting a game club.

I give it 6 months before the Chicago Bunker is closed as well, seeing as that was about how long between the 2 West coast ones closing.

Doubt it because that has been their highest grossing store in the U.S for more years then I can count.