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So, Khorne doesn't explicitly sanction psykers (though he doesn't explicitly bar them either - that's only a World Eater thing), which means that if you're going to run a sorcerer in a CSM army devoted to khorne, you'd have to use book powers. Of course, they can only draw from three different fields and one of them (pyromancy) is both bad and not terribly fluffy for anything, which leaves just the options of biomancy or telepathy. Which of these two would be more fluffy for a khorne army?

Biomancy:

Cons: Khrone is all about being the best you can be. Buffing your strength or speed, or worse, weakening your opponent, isn't a test of how good you are, it's a test of how powerful your magic is. It's blatant cheating, and doesn't really test who is the best warrior. It's the same reason ancient Terran baseball games didn't allow steroids. I mean, this really is the stereotypical example of the weak winning by trickery, not by skill at arms.

Pros: That all sounds like a bunch of bitching and whining by someone who isn't strong enough to use the power of the warp. Complaining about what is "fair" and what isn't is the purview of the weak and pitiful. I used MY abilities to win the fight. If you don't have those abilities, then tough - you're just making excuses for your weakness of psychic power. Plus, if you REALLY wanted it to be a "fair" fight, then you'd do all your fighting naked and without weapons. Don't tell me that augmenting my strength with iron arm is a crutch when you're running around with a powerfist, or that I'm somehow "cheating" when I use endurance to make myself more durable when you're wearing power armor.

Telepathy:

Cons: This is just magic, pure and simple. Instead of fighting, man to man, you're casting spells on them from afar and beating them without even really fighting them. Yeah, you look like a real strong guy using puppet master to have your opponents hurt themselves so that you don't have to. You look really brave by making yourself invisible. There is no game without risk of loss. You're not competing, you're just pointlessly slaughtering - something that Khorne himself more than frowns on.

Pros: This is actually the perfect showcase of using the warp in a way favorable to a warp entity. I mean, if you cast hallucination, there's a chance that the squad goes into a blind rage and hacks themselves apart in a bloody melee. How is that not Khorne? Plus, most of the rest of the abilities are there to make sure that a proper competition happens in the first place, either getting our own warriors stuck in, or weeding out the riffraff. Khorne demands worthy sacrifices won against the best by the best. Nothing does this better than telepathy powers.

Fixed

Telepathy-
Pros- you are now Darth Vader all shall fear you. Using (puppet master) force choke to obliterate all.
Cons- none you are sith in the 40k era.

Funny how you talk about how pyromancy would be unfluffy when the entire idea isn't even close to how it works in the background. Khorne hates psykers and anything to do with psychic powers.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Funny how you talk about how pyromancy would be unfluffy when the entire idea isn't even close to how it works in the background. Khorne hates psykers and anything to do with psychic powers.

I'm not sure he does. Fantasy Khorne hates magic, but I don't think it's quite the same between systems

Yah hating magic isn't just World Eater thing. Khorne just hates all pyskers.

However, you could use biomancy, and instead of spells you could jsut count them as blessings from khorne, like the increased strength and stuff.

 motyak wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Funny how you talk about how pyromancy would be unfluffy when the entire idea isn't even close to how it works in the background. Khorne hates psykers and anything to do with psychic powers.

I'm not sure he does. Fantasy Khorne hates magic, but I don't think it's quite the same between systems

In Black Crusade it states that any psyker pledging itself to Khorne is utterly destroyed. Plus Khorne never has psykers or anyone using psychic powers in any fluff I've ever read.

So, I spent a great deal of time last night reading various "should khorne have psykers at all?" threads in many places on the internet, and it seems that the same few things come up every time, and that the answer in the end always ends up as "yes".

Khorne-based warriors use magic weapons, they use sorcerers/navigators to move their ships through the warp, and several canon fluff books refer to psykers who worship khorne (whether "blood magic" or explicit, warp-fuelled psychic powers, or khorne himself doing supernatural things like causing it to rain blood). Just because the World Eaters in specific killed off their librarians when they turned heresy doesn't mean that you can't be a psyker who worships khorne.

The reason that there isn't a LOT of it, though, is because it's hard to follow the spirit of khorne with psychic powers. Khorne isn't about divination, obviously. That said, if Khorne excepts sacrifices butchered by autocannons and bolt weapons, then he accepts those butchered by psychic shriek.

The question isn't "can khorne have psykers?", but "which psykers bother khorne the least?"

Biomancy and Pyromancy seem to be the most acceptable. Telepathy seems too sneaky for Khornish tastes.

I will also say biomancy. Buffing yourself up is perfectly acceptable.

Telepathy will help a Khorne army get into CC the most, so I'd go there. I run a ML 3, unmarked Telepath in my Khorne list... invisibility is nice.

 Lobukia wrote:
Telepathy will help a Khorne army get into CC the most, so I'd go there. I run a ML 3, unmarked Telepath in my Khorne list... invisibility is nice.

Which of these two would be more fluffy for a khorne army?

Telepathy is a Slaanesh Path for their Daemon Psykers, so it's as far from fluffy for Khorne as it gets.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Funny how you talk about how pyromancy would be unfluffy when the entire idea isn't even close to how it works in the background. Khorne hates psykers and anything to do with psychic powers.

Not quite, Gore mages show up in Dan Abnett's books, Kyras joined Khorne. If you can get enough blood and skulls, Khorne doesn't care how you get it, just as long as you get it. Biomancy is definitely a Khornate thing as it lets you become a better warrior of Khorne. Khorne is a god of wrath first and foremost, and a psyker can just be angry and hateful as any other person.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, I spent a great deal of time last night reading various "should khorne have psykers at all?" threads in many places on the internet, and it seems that the same few things come up every time, and that the answer in the end always ends up as "yes".

So confirmation bias then. Because it comes down to players (like you) wishing that Khorne had psychic powers and trying to fluff it so that they could use sorcerers. If you want sorcerers that bad, there's 3 other gods (and undivided) that you can turn to rather than try and hamfist it in.

Black Crusade wrote:
"Many of these Heretics have made the deliberate decision
to dedicate their lives to Slaneesh, Nurgle, or Tzeentch, though
some choose to avoid dedicating themselves to a particular
power. Khorne, however, specifically obliterates any psyker
who would beseech him for power."

Khorne-based warriors use magic weapons, they use sorcerers/navigators to move their ships through the warp, and several canon fluff books refer to psykers who worship khorne (whether "blood magic" or explicit, warp-fuelled psychic powers, or khorne himself doing supernatural things like causing it to rain blood). Just because the World Eaters in specific killed off their librarians when they turned heresy doesn't mean that you can't be a psyker who worships khorne.

Chaos ships don't need navigators, see Eye of Terror.
Also just because they use enchanted/ensorcelled weapons doesn't mean they're sorcerers.
Khorne is a Chaos god, he can do whatever he wants. It doesn't make him use psychic powers. He uses the warp.

The reason that there isn't a LOT of it, though, is because it's hard to follow the spirit of khorne with psychic powers. Khorne isn't about divination, obviously. That said, if Khorne excepts sacrifices butchered by autocannons and bolt weapons, then he accepts those butchered by psychic shriek.

That's a false comparison. Khorne is fine with range combat (re: Teeth of Khorne, giving weaponry to Chaos warriors and all that jazz) but not with psychic powers.

The question isn't "can khorne have psykers?", but "which psykers bother khorne the least?"

The only psykers that don't bother Khorne are ones that are already dead.


Also Kyras is really not a good example since he probably hasn't been smited by Khorne yet.

Plus in Blood Pact, they use blood magic. It doesn't really just talk about Khorne. I'm sure that Gore Mages subsist without Khorne. Khorne has never explicitly marked psykers nor will he ever.

Kyras and the Malefactor are dead, Diomedes blew off their mutual heads via the litany of fury to the face. Clearly Khorne liked Kyras enough to merge him with one of his most powerful bloodthirsters and grant him daemonhood.

Of course as far as Khornate Daemons go, the Malefactor is unusually cunning, having numerous examples of long term planning and seeming unnaturally calm for a bloodthirster. No screaming in fury, no going right up and cleaving people in half right away, but orchestrating events for much greater bloodshed than could be garnered by a simple rampage.

Which I like, Khorne is not specifically a god of screaming bezerkers, and tranquil fury is anger as valid as anything else. Someone who's actually tactical and strategic is something Khorne needs more of.

And the Blood Pact is specifically devoted to Khorne, they mastered the art of war to honor their god. They're not undivided, they're not tzeentchilist, nurglite, or slaaneshi, they are purely Khornate.

And also Khorne needs witchery to get his daemons anywhere.

wait a minute..... surely pyromancy is the most fluffy, I mean, burning the crap out of your enemies? sure you'll probably boil most of the blood off, but at least you can give khorne some slightly charred skulls.

GA

 Kain wrote:
Kyras and the Malefactor are dead, Diomedes blew off their mutual heads via the litany of fury to the face. Clearly Khorne liked Kyras enough to merge him with one of his most powerful bloodthirsters and grant him daemonhood.

Of course as far as Khornate Daemons go, the Malefactor is unusually cunning, having numerous examples of long term planning and seeming unnaturally calm for a bloodthirster. No screaming in fury, no going right up and cleaving people in half right away, but orchestrating events for much greater bloodshed than could be garnered by a simple rampage.

Which I like, Khorne is not specifically a god of screaming bezerkers, and tranquil fury is anger as valid as anything else. Someone who's actually tactical and strategic is something Khorne needs more of.

And the Blood Pact is specifically devoted to Khorne, they mastered the art of war to honor their god. They're not undivided, they're not tzeentchilist, nurglite, or slaaneshi, they are purely Khornate.

And also Khorne needs witchery to get his daemons anywhere.

Actually the old Mechanics for Khorne Daemon Summoning involved getting up and beating face, you had an easier time summoning if you had units in combat killing things in melee, generally Khorne uses rituals to call its daemons along with good ole blood sacrifice.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Chaos ships don't need navigators, see Eye of Terror.

Eye of Terror has Daemon navigators. A daemonette to be precise. They say that Daemon navigators simply move through the warp without much concentration.

Keep in mind that same book has Khorne and Tzeentch working together. Imperial Navigators just wandering around back water planets, Space Marines fighting in void without helmets, the Rose Cluster...

It's not the best book to use as a reference... Being the first Black Library novel and all.

 DeffDred wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Chaos ships don't need navigators, see Eye of Terror.

Eye of Terror has Daemon navigators. A daemonette to be precise. They say that Daemon navigators simply move through the warp without much concentration.

Keep in mind that same book has Khorne and Tzeentch working together. Imperial Navigators just wandering around back water planets, Space Marines fighting in void without helmets, the Rose Cluster...

It's not the best book to use as a reference... Being the first Black Library novel and all.

I thought the first Black Library novel was First and Only?

[quote=Vladsimpaler

Khorne Only really put's up with psychic power, or, more accurately to him, warp-power, to enhance weaponry and armor. He personally, might bless you with a warp mutation, but it's only going to be one that improves on what you allready excel at. He might double your muscle mass if you tear enough head's off with your bare hand's for instance. Or else, he might grant you a pair of gauntlet's called the " 'ead squeezer's of Khorne" Which double your crushing potential.

Khorne has no issue whatsoever with using magic or warp energy to craft weapons, in fact, in the daemon book, it specifically talks of him being as good as, if not better than tzeentch, at this one specific aspect of magic, the imbuing of power into weapons and armor.

The bit where khorne disaproves, is the bit where your power's don't require you to get into the thick of it. Throwing fire, for instance. Khorne despises shooting in his own ranks for the same reason, and this is shown in his only shooting unit in the daemon's codex (Aside technically for the soulgrinder) Which is ignore cover. The fluff for that, the skull cannon, basically states that it's only use, is to blast coward's out of cover so that they can stand and face a real fight. I believe this is the only use khorne might have for a psyker, to root out cowards, but not kill with their psychic power, merely locate hiding enemies, and force them to fight "As a warrior"

The reason why Khorne sorcerer's are so rare, is that most psyker's, particularly those in service of the dark god's, can't resist to use their powers. A Khorne sorcerer would have to purposefully limit themselves to not killing with their powers, something a deranged psyker would find hard to do. They would have to only use it as a means to an end, to bring coward's into true fight's, and not to use it as a weapon in itself.

 Happygrunt wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Chaos ships don't need navigators, see Eye of Terror.

Eye of Terror has Daemon navigators. A daemonette to be precise. They say that Daemon navigators simply move through the warp without much concentration.

Keep in mind that same book has Khorne and Tzeentch working together. Imperial Navigators just wandering around back water planets, Space Marines fighting in void without helmets, the Rose Cluster...

It's not the best book to use as a reference... Being the first Black Library novel and all.

I thought the first Black Library novel was First and Only?

Looks like you're correct. However there is only 1 month between their release dates.

Edit: I'd like to add:

"World Eater/ Legion of Khorne - Heavy Weapon/ Support Trooper Characterized by plain skull helmets [mainly to accommodate{Jes Goodwin's typo} weapon]"
-Jes Goodwin 1991 (The Gothic and The Eldritch)

 DeffDred wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Chaos ships don't need navigators, see Eye of Terror.

Eye of Terror has Daemon navigators. A daemonette to be precise. They say that Daemon navigators simply move through the warp without much concentration.

Keep in mind that same book has Khorne and Tzeentch working together. Imperial Navigators just wandering around back water planets, Space Marines fighting in void without helmets, the Rose Cluster...

It's not the best book to use as a reference... Being the first Black Library novel and all.

I thought the first Black Library novel was First and Only?

Looks like you're correct. However there is only 1 month between their release dates.

Thought so. I remembered there was some joke that the title of the book was reflective of how many books the company thought they would publish.

They had published other book before Black Library but mainly everything was collections form Inferno Magazine.

 DeffDred wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Chaos ships don't need navigators, see Eye of Terror.

Eye of Terror has Daemon navigators. A daemonette to be precise. They say that Daemon navigators simply move through the warp without much concentration.

There's more precedence for Khorne working together with Tzeentch (grudgingly) both in background and in game than there are Khornate Psykers
Also there have been several times where Marines fight in space without helmets.

 Ailaros wrote:

Actually, it's called research.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?356196-Would-you-use-a-sorcerer-in-a-Khorne-themed-army

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/441911.page

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/why-no-psykers-of-khorne.257975/

... actually, I'm going to stop there. If you google "khorne sorcerer", you'll get a LOT of topics. Everything you've said has already been addressed elsewhere. Wheres that aren't in a thread of which power to use, rather than of if powers should be used at all.

That's funny because reading through these same threads, what I understand is "Khorne hates psykers" and the conclusion I draw is that Khorne would never employ sorcerers except in instances of fluff hiccups.