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 loki old fart wrote:

The op told him where he bought the codex etc from quote "The particular reason why the manager got stroppy was because I bought my eldar codex and wraithguard at a FLGS recently and I do mean recently.

He brings me aside and asks where I bought my codex. I tell him the truth.

After telling him the truth he goes into a speech about whether what I did was ethical. "

That part of the statement comes after the manager "looks up his account" and apparently this magically gifts him with the knowledge that the OP didn't buy it at any GW store. Which, obviously, it can't.

 Ravenous D wrote:

When you first buy something at a GW you give your name, from that point on every single thing you buy in your country is recorded. All you need to do to look it up is type in the name and you have his entire ordering history. I worked at GW, its not hard, we did it all the time to help parents buy gifts for their kids on stuff they wanted.

I'm aware that they have some measure of tracking in place. We had much the same at the store I worked at, in fact. And if the customer was very familiar and well known, I'd have a pretty good idea of what he'd bought without it, or if he was in the system I could look it up and know what a less-familiar customer had ordered.

If he was in the system. If he gave me his name.

That's the problem I have with this post. Either the OP is editing the exchange, lying outright, or incredibly gullible. There's no way the manager could have known, with any certainty, that he hadn't bought the book at a GW store. He might have known that the OP hadn't bought it at his store, and gotten snippy over that, but it seems unlikely.

Like I said before, to me at least it reeks of fabrication. Or at the very least, embellishment.

If the OP hasn't played at the store in months, why was he worrying about buying at his FLGS and playing at GW a month ago? If he hasn't been in the store in months, how likely is it that the manager even remembers his name, if he wasn't a regular customer before hand? If he was a regular customer, how likely is the manager to have read him the riot act over one codex? If he has "since" found a FLGS, which FLGS was he buying his minis at before?

It's entirely possible that the scenario unfolded exactly as the OP described. But there are a lot of inconsistencies in his account, and I've no inclination to take it at face value.

While "pay where you play" is pretty much basic etiquette for FLGS as far as I'm concerned (probably a relic of my longtime employment with one), it gets a bit fuzzier with GW stores, I'll admit. In theory, GW gets the money wherever you buy it (though less money at FLGS/online than they would from GW stores/site), but the manager has a point. If you play at the GW store, you have to recognize that if you're buying all your minis somewhere else, that store might not be there in the future. Whether or not GW makes the sale is irrelevant if the store isn't doing sufficient sales to stay open.

Hell, I've done the whole "pull someone aside and explain the situation" bit before. And we did discount our GW product, which functionally nobody else in the region did, but people would still go online for that extra 10% or so off, and pointing out to them that showing up every week to play someplace where you don't spend any money could result in the closure of the place you're doing your gaming doesn't exactly make one a monster, assuming the interaction is handled politely.

What made it especially galling was that a couple of the people who got that speech were refugees, after a fashion, from a gaming store that had opened across the street from us and attempted to put us out of business. They failed, and the reason they failed was because while they had absolutely massive amounts of gaming space, their clientele had absolutely no loyalty to them. They'd show up, game, and leave. They bought all of their stuff online (or, entertainingly, from us. Including their staff. Who were horrible.), advertised the fact, and when they pulled the same routine in my store, well, they were encouraged not to come back.

I never told anyone to buy something or get out, of course, but just about everything short of that, and I did tell a few people to either shut up about buying their gaming supplies online, or not return to the store.

 Raesvelg wrote:
ncluding their staff. Who were horrible.

"Hey boss, imma go for lunch!"

*comes back with 3 GW boxes*

"Hey, where did you get those?"

"Uhm..I...found...those."

 Raesvelg wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

The op told him where he bought the codex etc from quote "The particular reason why the manager got stroppy was because I bought my eldar codex and wraithguard at a FLGS recently and I do mean recently.

He brings me aside and asks where I bought my codex. I tell him the truth.

After telling him the truth he goes into a speech about whether what I did was ethical. "

That part of the statement comes after the manager "looks up his account" and apparently this magically gifts him with the knowledge that the OP didn't buy it at any GW store. Which, obviously, it can't.

 Ravenous D wrote:

When you first buy something at a GW you give your name, from that point on every single thing you buy in your country is recorded. All you need to do to look it up is type in the name and you have his entire ordering history. I worked at GW, its not hard, we did it all the time to help parents buy gifts for their kids on stuff they wanted.

I'm aware that they have some measure of tracking in place. We had much the same at the store I worked at, in fact. And if the customer was very familiar and well known, I'd have a pretty good idea of what he'd bought without it, or if he was in the system I could look it up and know what a less-familiar customer had ordered.

If he was in the system. If he gave me his name.

That's the problem I have with this post. Either the OP is editing the exchange, lying outright, or incredibly gullible. There's no way the manager could have known, with any certainty, that he hadn't bought the book at a GW store. He might have known that the OP hadn't bought it at his store, and gotten snippy over that, but it seems unlikely.

Like I said before, to me at least it reeks of fabrication. Or at the very least, embellishment.

If the OP hasn't played at the store in months, why was he worrying about buying at his FLGS and playing at GW a month ago? If he hasn't been in the store in months, how likely is it that the manager even remembers his name, if he wasn't a regular customer before hand? If he was a regular customer, how likely is the manager to have read him the riot act over one codex? If he has "since" found a FLGS, which FLGS was he buying his minis at before?

I was worried because that particular manager knew me for years. And in the past has told me to buy something,play a game or get out, twice.

It's entirely possible that the scenario unfolded exactly as the OP described. But there are a lot of inconsistencies in his account, and I've no inclination to take it at face value.

While "pay where you play" is pretty much basic etiquette for FLGS as far as I'm concerned (probably a relic of my longtime employment with one), it gets a bit fuzzier with GW stores, I'll admit. In theory, GW gets the money wherever you buy it (though less money at FLGS/online than they would from GW stores/site), but the manager has a point. If you play at the GW store, you have to recognize that if you're buying all your minis somewhere else, that store might not be there in the future. Whether or not GW makes the sale is irrelevant if the store isn't doing sufficient sales to stay open.

Hell, I've done the whole "pull someone aside and explain the situation" bit before. And we did discount our GW product, which functionally nobody else in the region did, but people would still go online for that extra 10% or so off, and pointing out to them that showing up every week to play someplace where you don't spend any money could result in the closure of the place you're doing your gaming doesn't exactly make one a monster, assuming the interaction is handled politely.

What made it especially galling was that a couple of the people who got that speech were refugees, after a fashion, from a gaming store that had opened across the street from us and attempted to put us out of business. They failed, and the reason they failed was because while they had absolutely massive amounts of gaming space, their clientele had absolutely no loyalty to them. They'd show up, game, and leave. They bought all of their stuff online (or, entertainingly, from us. Including their staff. Who were horrible.), advertised the fact, and when they pulled the same routine in my store, well, they were encouraged not to come back.

I never told anyone to buy something or get out, of course, but just about everything short of that, and I did tell a few people to either shut up about buying their gaming supplies online, or not return to the store.

this is why I dont play in store

While I think the OP was using a bit of hyperbole, I can realistically see this happening in a GW store. The manager has sales quotas and from a retail sales background myself it certainly irks me when customers flaunt the fact that they purchased their products from somewhere else. If I were the OP I would have reported the manager to GW customer service as the response (if real) was over the top. If anyone is interested I actually just did a write up about the trend towards direct sales GW is adopting and their current attitude towards sales over community. Check out the link below

Start a new thread on it Kimchi, was a decent read, specifically the fact that GW feels its pull and ability to sell will remove indi retailers in the long run.
Seems counter to what many feel in terms of GW and its products being in decline.
What are your views on its purely online retail policy/strategy?

 Ratius wrote:
Start a new thread on it Kimchi, was a decent read, specifically the fact that GW feels its pull and ability to sell will remove indi retailers in the long run.
Seems counter to what many feel in terms of GW and its products being in decline.
What are your views on its purely online retail policy/strategy?

GW should franchise it's own stores out. and positively encourage independent stores as much as possible.

Why Loki? Unbiased question - I dont know much about the topic.

 Ratius wrote:
Why Loki? Unbiased question - I dont know much about the topic.

I just think GW's heading in the wrong direction.

Independent stores seem better at selling their stuff than they are

@ Kimchi I hope your wrong. http://kimchigames.blogspot.com

 Bloodmagic wrote:
Once again I am going into bat for GW.



I have never had a bad experiance at a GW store.
I have never been asked to leave the store, or for that matter have I ever witnessed anyone being asked to leave.
I do not understand where these tales of aggression towards customers from GW staff come from.
I have only ever had a good time at a GW outlet.

The problem here is, somebody has a bad time at a store (does not matter if its GW or not) and they will tar the whole company with that one brush. They will log onto the internet forums and bad mouth the company, trying to do as much damage as they can. If people would put the same amount of effort into praising and recognising when good work is done, I am sure we would all live in a happier place.

Stop looking for the negatives all the time, maybe try entering the store on a positive and not already with a pre concieved notion that your experiance will be a negative one.

PS: My local store is GW Castle Hill, Sydney. The managers name is Troy. Its a small store but I always feel welcome there, I am always greeted with a smile and a 'how's your day?". They are prepared to talk to me if I purchase something or not. For that reason I will usually purchase a product or some paints.

If someone has a good experience, they will tell their friend.

If someone has a bad one, they will tell ten.

SOME of the tales are true. The names change, but they are a little too close to say they are wrong, and they usually tend to be about an overzealous sales monkey, or a closet hitler manager.

Either way, in real life the chones overshadow the good ones. If GW was smart, they'd do something about it.

They don't see it as an issue from the ivory tower, so they have no issue.

 loki old fart wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Start a new thread on it Kimchi, was a decent read, specifically the fact that GW feels its pull and ability to sell will remove indi retailers in the long run.
Seems counter to what many feel in terms of GW and its products being in decline.
What are your views on its purely online retail policy/strategy?

GW should franchise it's own stores out. and positively encourage independent stores as much as possible.

As a former franchise owner, I would have serious reservations about GW attempting to do this. While there are obvious advantages to that model, the biggest problem for the franchisor is to strike a balance between protecting your brand and ensuring a consistent customer experience while simultaneously allowing the sort of entrepreneurial character who wants to run his own store the freedom to do so in the most effective way they see fit.

I was frustrated on numerous occasions, losing customers and missing out on opportunities because of "the rules" Now, don't get me wrong, this was sometimes understandable, but often it was just limiting. Because other franchisees had tried to push their luck in the past, those of us who tried to run things right got caught in the fallout of unilateral policies that had subsequently been implemented.

Given GWs apparent need to control everything I can't see this working out for anyone involved.

Completely agree with supporting independent stores though, and perhaps some sort of franchise/concession hybrid model, where GW didn't control everything the store did, might work?

 MRPYM wrote:

I was worried because that particular manager knew me for years. And in the past has told me to buy something,play a game or get out, twice.

What you're describing then are two separate incidents, one where the manager tells you that if you don't support the store, eventually it won't be there for you to play in anymore, and another incident(s) where the manager told you to buy something, play a game, or leave, ie, asked you not to loiter in the store all day.

Which honestly isn't that unusual in retail.

The only thing that has been asked from out GW Store in the Jax area is that you are either Gaming, Working on something, or Shopping. One of the rules we do go by is that you follow the at least 75% of a model is GW based but nothing outrageous.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Raesvelg wrote:
ncluding their staff. Who were horrible.

"Hey boss, imma go for lunch!"

*comes back with 3 GW boxes*

"Hey, where did you get those?"

"Uhm..I...found...those."

Kinda lol.

On one occasion we wound up getting two boxes of their most recent games shipment. Being the benevolent folks we are, I carried the boxes over to their store, walked in the front door carrying two very obvious boxes of their product, and the guy behind the counter looked up with a positively bovine expression, then went back to reading his comic book.

I cleared my throat. He kept reading.

Finally I told him that I had two boxes of their stuff, and he blinked, stared blankly for a few seconds, and then muttered something about getting his manager.

And he was pretty much par for the course with the help there.

 azreal13 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Start a new thread on it Kimchi, was a decent read, specifically the fact that GW feels its pull and ability to sell will remove indi retailers in the long run.
Seems counter to what many feel in terms of GW and its products being in decline.
What are your views on its purely online retail policy/strategy?

GW should franchise it's own stores out. and positively encourage independent stores as much as possible.

As a former franchise owner, I would have serious reservations about GW attempting to do this. While there are obvious advantages to that model, the biggest problem for the franchisor is to strike a balance between protecting your brand and ensuring a consistent customer experience while simultaneously allowing the sort of entrepreneurial character who wants to run his own store the freedom to do so in the most effective way they see fit.

I was frustrated on numerous occasions, losing customers and missing out on opportunities because of "the rules" Now, don't get me wrong, this was sometimes understandable, but often it was just limiting. Because other franchisees had tried to push their luck in the past, those of us who tried to run things right got caught in the fallout of unilateral policies that had subsequently been implemented.

Given GWs apparent need to control everything I can't see this working out for anyone involved.

Completely agree with supporting independent stores though, and perhaps some sort of franchise/concession hybrid model, where GW didn't control everything the store did, might work?

Some means of manager/staff buyout then, so the shop evolve into flgs's

 loki old fart wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Start a new thread on it Kimchi, was a decent read, specifically the fact that GW feels its pull and ability to sell will remove indi retailers in the long run.
Seems counter to what many feel in terms of GW and its products being in decline.
What are your views on its purely online retail policy/strategy?

GW should franchise it's own stores out. and positively encourage independent stores as much as possible.

As a former franchise owner, I would have serious reservations about GW attempting to do this. While there are obvious advantages to that model, the biggest problem for the franchisor is to strike a balance between protecting your brand and ensuring a consistent customer experience while simultaneously allowing the sort of entrepreneurial character who wants to run his own store the freedom to do so in the most effective way they see fit.

I was frustrated on numerous occasions, losing customers and missing out on opportunities because of "the rules" Now, don't get me wrong, this was sometimes understandable, but often it was just limiting. Because other franchisees had tried to push their luck in the past, those of us who tried to run things right got caught in the fallout of unilateral policies that had subsequently been implemented.

Given GWs apparent need to control everything I can't see this working out for anyone involved.

Completely agree with supporting independent stores though, and perhaps some sort of franchise/concession hybrid model, where GW didn't control everything the store did, might work?

Some means of manager/staff buyout then, so the shop evolve into flgs's

The last management buyout was led by a Mr Tom Kirby...and here we are.

Honestly, a few genuine hobbyists/enthusiasts in places of genuine influence would probably be all it takes, alongside a few more with slightly less narrow minded attitudes towards how the business is run.

A business the size of GW can't be run solely by creatives, but the mix seems massively off from where I'm looking. If they made a few heart decisions, rather than all head ones, I suspect a lot of detractors would be back on side in short order, yours truly included.

@ azreal I meant at the shop level, not GW plc

Then they'd have to launch a card game a la MTG.

Games Workshop, the only retail environment where a person can loiter the entire day in the store with poor hygiene, spending no money and doing nothing constructive and asking them to leave is a heinous crime.

Not suggesting the OP had bad hygiene by the way, it's just that gamer stereotype...but seriously, that's how this thread seems to sum up to me. It's in the name people: GAMES WORK SHOP

Play Games

Work on Models

SHOP

if your not doing one of those three they should be asking you to leave as all your doing is loitering...and that's a crime (or at least a misdemeanor) in most parts.

 Bloodmagic wrote:
Once again I am going into bat for GW.



I have never had a bad experiance at a GW store.
I have never been asked to leave the store, or for that matter have I ever witnessed anyone being asked to leave.
I do not understand where these tales of aggression towards customers from GW staff come from.
I have only ever had a good time at a GW outlet.

I should hope so. With the prices you pay in Australia they ought to serve you champagne and caviar while you play.

Orktavius wrote:
Games Workshop, the only retail environment where a person can loiter the entire day in the store with poor hygiene, spending no money and doing nothing constructive and asking them to leave is a heinous crime.

Not suggesting the OP had bad hygiene by the way, it's just that gamer stereotype...but seriously, that's how this thread seems to sum up to me. It's in the name people: GAMES WORK SHOP

Play Games

Work on Models

SHOP

if your not doing one of those three they should be asking you to leave as all your doing is loitering...and that's a crime (or at least a misdemeanor) in most parts.

GW White Knights, the only people that in their unrelenting effort to protect their damsel consistently call all other GW fans malodorous, infantile, neckbeards and for whom to play the game in the tables that the store supposedly provides for open gaming is loitering!

All hail the GW White Knights!

I'm still not sure if this is a trend or not. As advised, I tried Googling for other examples of what the OP describes (GW's Secret Police and Unified, Omniscient, Global Purchase Tracking Database) and came up with nothing.

If the trend he's talking about is the whole 'pay where you play' question, then it's more of a philosophy than a trend. Some people don't adhere to it, some do - it all comes down to how well the individual can rationalise, and what they consider morally justifiable.

If GW as a company is beginning to expect people to pay where they play, that would constitute a trend - just one I've never noticed, and wouldn't notice without being told, because I and my circle always pay where we play. Even when playing at a friend's house, I'll take along something to say thanks - it might just be a bottle of wine for his missus, but the gesture is important.

In many ways, the argument that so long as you've bought official GW merchandise, you should be allowed to play on their tables (if those tables are for open, PUG gaming) without buying anything from the store makes sense. I suspect my perspective is different partially as a function of my generation, and partly because I support national wildlife preserves.

That segue probably doesn't make sense to foreign readers. In the UK, a proportion of local tax income goes towards sustaining any local wildlife preserves. As someone who pays a not insignificant amount of tax each year, it could be considered I make more than my fair contribution towards them. But when I take the dog for a walk in one (cleaning up after him, of course), I still make a voluntary contribution to the preserve's specific donation bucket - because that's the preserve I walk in, and I don't want it to be deemed unsustainable the next time people start talking about which ones are going to have to be canned.

 Muddypaw wrote:

 Mywik wrote:


I am never again entering any official GW stores because of a somewhat similar story. Friend of mine was starting a dark eldar army two weeks ago. We went to gw because our FLGS didnt have everything he wanted in stock. While buying boxes and blisters worth 300 Euro my friend asked for a bag to carry the stuff to his car. The manager told us that he has to charge 15Cents for that bag. Seriously ... after spending such an amount of money on toy soldiers i expect at least a bag to carry them away. GW isnt even giving ANY discount at all.

Its not about the 15 cents its just about respect and being treated as a valuable customer.

Just as an aside, there are some countries and US states that have nationally/state wide imposed surcharges on plastic bags. Ireland for example has a 15 euro charge for each bag used. A GW in Ireland would be breaking the law if they were not to charge the customer. Of course if you are in a country/state that does not have such a tax ignore the above. GW were clearly being arses!

Germany doesnt have such a law. You can give away free plastic bags like there is no tomorrow if you want to.

 Mywik wrote:

 Muddypaw wrote:

 Mywik wrote:


I am never again entering any official GW stores because of a somewhat similar story. Friend of mine was starting a dark eldar army two weeks ago. We went to gw because our FLGS didnt have everything he wanted in stock. While buying boxes and blisters worth 300 Euro my friend asked for a bag to carry the stuff to his car. The manager told us that he has to charge 15Cents for that bag. Seriously ... after spending such an amount of money on toy soldiers i expect at least a bag to carry them away. GW isnt even giving ANY discount at all.

Its not about the 15 cents its just about respect and being treated as a valuable customer.

Just as an aside, there are some countries and US states that have nationally/state wide imposed surcharges on plastic bags. Ireland for example has a 15 euro charge for each bag used. A GW in Ireland would be breaking the law if they were not to charge the customer. Of course if you are in a country/state that does not have such a tax ignore the above. GW were clearly being arses!

Germany doesnt have such a law. You can give away free plastic bags like there is no tomorrow if you want to.

Additionally, having worked in a similar environment to GW managers, and done quite well at it, if a customer was spending that money and I was legally obliged to charge for a bag, I'd have put my hand in my damn pocket and bought him one with my own money.

Or knocked a Euro off his total for minis and then charged him for the bag.

It's just sloppy service and lack of motivation/imagination.

My local GW used to be great; the manager was a really friendly guy who was in it because he loved the hobby. He then got dragged up to HQ to train new minions, and since then it's all gone downhill. I think that the more long-standing staff members understand the flexibility of their role and are in it to help, but all the newer staffers seem to be desperately doing everything to the exact letter of the rules, and just don't care about being helpful. It's a shame; it's ruined the atmosphere in the store :/

 Mywik wrote:


Germany doesnt have such a law. You can give away free plastic bags like there is no tomorrow if you want to.

Don't know why there's such a fuss.

Manager asks OP (who's been hanging out in the store, with clairvoyant episodes) whether he's buying, or just taking up space.

OP spends 5p on plastic bag to carry codex and models bought at FLGS.

Problem solved.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Mywik wrote:


Germany doesnt have such a law. You can give away free plastic bags like there is no tomorrow if you want to.

Don't know why there's such a fuss.

Manager asks OP (who's been hanging out in the store, with clairvoyant episodes) whether he's buying, or just taking up space.

OP spends 5p on plastic bag to carry codex and models bought at FLGS.

Problem solved.

OP realises he's been sold a Citadel Finebag when all his models drop out of a hole in the bottom and go down a drain while he's waiting for a bus!

 azreal13 wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

 Muddypaw wrote:

 Mywik wrote:


I am never again entering any official GW stores because of a somewhat similar story. Friend of mine was starting a dark eldar army two weeks ago. We went to gw because our FLGS didnt have everything he wanted in stock. While buying boxes and blisters worth 300 Euro my friend asked for a bag to carry the stuff to his car. The manager told us that he has to charge 15Cents for that bag. Seriously ... after spending such an amount of money on toy soldiers i expect at least a bag to carry them away. GW isnt even giving ANY discount at all.

Its not about the 15 cents its just about respect and being treated as a valuable customer.

Just as an aside, there are some countries and US states that have nationally/state wide imposed surcharges on plastic bags. Ireland for example has a 15 euro charge for each bag used. A GW in Ireland would be breaking the law if they were not to charge the customer. Of course if you are in a country/state that does not have such a tax ignore the above. GW were clearly being arses!

Germany doesnt have such a law. You can give away free plastic bags like there is no tomorrow if you want to.

Additionally, having worked in a similar environment to GW managers, and done quite well at it, if a customer was spending that money and I was legally obliged to charge for a bag, I'd have put my hand in my damn pocket and bought him one with my own money.

Or knocked a Euro off his total for minis and then charged him for the bag.

It's just sloppy service and lack of motivation/imagination.

I don't think you're allowed to discount by the charge/tax for the bag in some places, otherwise it'd completely defeat the point.

The aim is to get people to consider if they actually need a bag.

PhantomViper wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
Games Workshop, the only retail environment where a person can loiter the entire day in the store with poor hygiene, spending no money and doing nothing constructive and asking them to leave is a heinous crime.

Not suggesting the OP had bad hygiene by the way, it's just that gamer stereotype...but seriously, that's how this thread seems to sum up to me. It's in the name people: GAMES WORK SHOP

Play Games

Work on Models

SHOP

if your not doing one of those three they should be asking you to leave as all your doing is loitering...and that's a crime (or at least a misdemeanor) in most parts.

GW White Knights, the only people that in their unrelenting effort to protect their damsel consistently call all other GW fans malodorous, infantile, neckbeards and for whom to play the game in the tables that the store supposedly provides for open gaming is loitering!

All hail the GW White Knights!

I don't know if he's really a white knight or not but he isn't wrong about what he said. People treating a GW store like a clubhouse to hang out at (loitering) are less likely to be welcome than paying customers or "regulars" who are there building and playing (thus advertising the game) on the open table.

Now I dislike GW as much as the next GW disliker, and I rarely find myself agreeing with Orktavius' posts, but I gotta give him this.

GW stores are stores. Not community centres. Having a chat with the staff or a fellow costumer before and after a purchase is totally fine (depending on how crowded it is), but to go there and just be there... I can't defend that.