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Well, if you think you've found a loophole (that GW's accounting/legal staff missed) feel free to try to get your refund. Just come back and admit it when you fail.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Even if it is a standard template, to prevent any legal matters or complaints that would arise wouldn't it be prudent to have included the words "if any?"

It would make sense, but obviously they don't do it. But when this subject has come up before, with people thinking they can get a nice VAT refund check, the answer has been that no VAT is charged unless it has to be.

 Cruentus wrote:
How is this the case when we're all going to the same website, and paying in the same £?

Let's give an example. An item has a price of £100 listed.

A UK resident pays £83 for the item and £17 in VAT.

A US resident pays £100 for the item and £0 in VAT.

The total price charged is the same for convenience, you just pay more for the item itself if you aren't paying VAT (which subsidizes the cheap shipping).

It never asks me where I'm from until I fill out the shipping info.

But it still asks you, and at that point it determines whether you pay £83 + £17 or £100.

And it says on FWs site that all prices include VAT.

All prices include VAT if any.

i'm charged a conversion fee from £ to USD

Not by FW. Any convesion fees are charged by your bank or credit card company.

You are ignoring the impact of the legally binding terms of trade that specifically say all uk website prices are inclusive of VAT. You math maybe correct but you are missing the fundamental point.

3.3 Please note that your purchase may be subject to certain sales taxes depending upon such factors as where in the world you order from or where the order is to be shipped to. Furthermore, the prices stated may or may not include a calculation of such sales tax. For more detailed information, we recommend that you refer to the tax addendum to these terms and conditions on the Games Workshop Web Site.

European and Australian Web Stores
All prices are quoted inclusive of the VAT or GST that applies in the country of the web store (e.g. the French web store prices include French TVA). If the goods are dispatched to an alternative destination outside the country of the web store, then this tax will be deducted prior to applying the tax rate appropriate to the country of destination of the order.


FW is a European website. Explain to me why terms of trade the FW says they are trading by are not applicable? As it says above, please refer tp the tax addendum.

The tax addendum specifically states it is inclusive.

 fullheadofhair wrote:
If the goods are dispatched to an alternative destination outside the country of the web store, then this tax will be deducted prior to applying the tax rate appropriate to the country of destination of the order.

No tax deducted, no tax was charged.

But seriously, if you think you know better than GW's lawyers and accountants then feel free to challenge the exact wording and demand your VAT refund. I suspect what you'll find is that your "clever" loophole is dismissed and GW is successfully doing exactly what they intended to do: charge non-VAT customers a higher price equivalent to the one paid by VAT-paying customers but not actually collect VAT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fullheadofhair wrote:
FW is a European website.

So you claim. GW will claim that the "web stores" in question are the gamesworkshop.com versions for each country, and FW is not included. They will succeed in doing so.

 Peregrine wrote:

 fullheadofhair wrote:
If the goods are dispatched to an alternative destination outside the country of the web store, then this tax will be deducted prior to applying the tax rate appropriate to the country of destination of the order.

No tax deducted, no tax was charged.

But seriously, if you think you know better than GW's lawyers and accountants then feel free to challenge the exact wording and demand your VAT refund.

As a ex-VAT accountant yes I will be writing to both FW and the VAT man. As to knowing better that GW lawyers and accountants, yes, well, dare I say CHS lawsuit.

I am willing to bet good money that whoever wrote the website for GW and FW and linked in GW terms of trade which specifcally deals with how local taxes are charged) wasn't a) a lawyer or b) a VAT accountant or they wouldn't have allowed this to creep in.

 fullheadofhair wrote:


Therefore, for all intents and purposes, despite what FW maybe trying to do they have managed to include VAT in their prices in their sales to the rest of the world.

Well, no, not for all intents and purposes. Their intent is pretty clear, they never intended to charge VAT where it is not due. They intended to display the cost inclusive of sales tax and for their US customer this is exactly what they do ( they do not state the value of the VAT, just that it includes VAT). For the purposes of calculating your charge and creating the invoice which lays out exactly what has been charged VAT is not charged.

Although re-reading the European and Australian Web Stores section they do, as you point out, claim it includes sales tax of the country specific store. Bad terms of trade but HM C&E are not going to care as it's not a UK or EU sale. US tax man is not going to care as its a UK business. The EU court in Brussels is not going to care as, again, not an EU sale so I don't see who is going to enforce this upon them nor to whom one could complain to to get a refund.

Unless the US tax man cares as FW is an arm of a business with US operations and becomes interested in local sales taxes?

Even if the Vat/no vat argument is not valid, paying a bank a conversion fee is an old holdover from money still being transferred as paper. Now that all banking is electronic, that fee is irrelevant.

All of this just another reason I am happy I backed out of GW. One way or another, some is gonna screw you.

 Peregrine wrote:

 fullheadofhair wrote:
If the goods are dispatched to an alternative destination outside the country of the web store, then this tax will be deducted prior to applying the tax rate appropriate to the country of destination of the order.

No tax deducted, no tax was charged.

And that was my point before I read the GW terms of trade. As an ex-VAT accountant I argued quite vigorously that no VAT was charged. I now believe I am wrong.

They state that all European websites are VAT inclusive - .co.uk is a European registered website.

So the price when I go to forgeworld .co.uk includes VAT. They then fail to deduct it.

So you claim. GW will claim that the "web stores" in question are the gamesworkshop.com versions for each country, and FW is not included. They will succeed in doing so.

I don't claim. GW in the ToT claims it to be so. FW ToT explicit state the tax addendum from GW.com is a binding ToT. Therefore, the ToT applicable to FW.co.uk are te rules for European websites.

As you say, lets see what the outcome is.

This thread hurts my head but think that going after a company like FW which on the whole is well respected and provides a great service to the community on a technicality is a really horrid thing to do just to save a small amount of money.

Boomstick wrote:
This thread hurts my head but think that going after a company like FW which on the whole is well respected and provides a great service to the community on a technicality is a really horrid thing to do just to save a small amount of money.

ummm, let's say it is correct. If someone in the US place and order for $800 how is being overcharged by 17.5 or 20% depending on the date of the order a "service to the community"?

 fullheadofhair wrote:
They state that all European websites are VAT inclusive - .co.uk is a European registered website.

And, as I said, GW will argue that that statement refers only to the various country-specific versions of gamesworkshop.com and the fact that FW is hosted on a .co.uk address does not mean that it is included. You're arguing a technicality about a summary page that isn't a formal legal document.

Boomstick wrote:
This thread hurts my head but think that going after a company like FW which on the whole is well respected and provides a great service to the community on a technicality is a really horrid thing to do just to save a small amount of money.

20% on every single order is "small"? If I could get that money there's no question that I'd demand it, any "obligation" I have to GW is irrelevant compared to thousands of dollars.

The problem here is not some bizarre ethical argument that we owe GW money and shouldn't dispute prices, it's that there's no way a demand for a VAT refund is going to succeed (because no VAT is charged).

 Peregrine wrote:

 fullheadofhair wrote:
They state that all European websites are VAT inclusive - .co.uk is a European registered website.

And, as I said, GW will argue that that statement refers only to the various country-specific versions of gamesworkshop.com and the fact that FW is hosted on a .co.uk address does not mean that it is included. You're arguing a technicality about a summary page that isn't a formal legal document.

I can accept that you may disagree with my reason and that I could be wrong and you could be right.

However, you are wrong with statement that theToT on a website aren't legal terms. That is why you have to be very careful when you write them.

 dragqueeninspace wrote:
Quick guys stock up on FW before the colonials lob it into the harbour. :-)

It's been over 200 years yet your statement is accurate

 Necronboy wrote:

 dragqueeninspace wrote:
Quick guys stock up on FW before the colonials lob it into the harbour. :-)

That about sums it up perfectly oh my god.

What a fantastic first reply to this thread . Cheers!

 dragqueeninspace wrote:
Quick guys stock up on FW before the colonials lob it into the harbour. :-)

Exalted.

I know when I was living outside the UK, buying stuff from Wayland, they obviously knocked the 20% off for VAT - but then you were dealing with a merchant who is selling on a product (with prices inc. VAT on their website).

However, as it is their own product I don't think there is anything to stop FW just saying "*shrug* add 20% to the cost for people outside the EU", keeping the money which would otherwise go on VAT?

It's not fair, but hey remember the company we are talking about here, and I think they would only get in trouble if they say they are collecting VAT on something for UK/EU customers and then fail to pass that on to the taxman.

So, what about when you buy FW direct from them at UK Games Day or some such? Do you get the little form like you're supposed to? What do you do if you don't?

I work outside the EU, so this gets me from time to time.
Some retailers knock off the VAT, Some don't.
The main GW site does, as it happens.
I've asked about this, and the answer I received was that the VAT money subsidises the international postage costs.

 fullheadofhair wrote:
If memory serves correctly it would actually be FW. VAT was incorrectly charged and therefore FW needs to back it out of its books and they would then (if they passed it on the gov) claim it back on their next claim period. Claiming it back from the government is a service provided to tourists and must be done as they leave the country.

You're right, it would be FW, who'd then claim it back from HMRC - I was misremembering something

 marv335 wrote:

I've asked about this, and the answer I received was that the VAT money subsidises the international postage costs.

To Australia?

Saudi Arabia actually.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Empchild wrote:
It's really not hard to set up a web cart to not charge taxes to people outside a certain area.

Again, they aren't charging you taxes. They're just charging you the same total price that a tax-paying customer would have to pay, because you're willing to pay it. Why drop prices to reflect the lack of VAT when people are willing to buy at the higher VAT-equivalent price and you can collect extra profit?

I am not a lawyer, but I believe the act of adding the equivalent of VAT to a customer's purchase without explicitly stating that the VAT-equivalent is being added to the total is called fraud.

DarkSoldier wrote:
]I am not a lawyer, but I believe the act of adding the equivalent of VAT to a customer's purchase without explicitly stating that the VAT-equivalent is being added to the total is called fraud.

How is it fraud? The price is listed clearly on the website, your shopping cart, the confirmation page, etc. You are well aware of what you are about to pay and what you will get before you commit to anything, there is no hidden fee added to the total once you've given them your credit card information. The fact that you don't like the way that total cost is determined doesn't make it fraud.

 Peregrine wrote:

DarkSoldier wrote:
]I am not a lawyer, but I believe the act of adding the equivalent of VAT to a customer's purchase without explicitly stating that the VAT-equivalent is being added to the total is called fraud.

How is it fraud? The price is listed clearly on the website, your shopping cart, the confirmation page, etc. You are well aware of what you are about to pay and what you will get before you commit to anything, there is no hidden fee added to the total once you've given them your credit card information. The fact that you don't like the way that total cost is determined doesn't make it fraud.

Sure, the customer would not be defrauded, but I think it is the government that is being defrauded, right? If you "collect" VAT, and do not turn over that money, but keep it...Ah, I see your point. It wouldn't defraud the government, because the Government is technically not supposed to get that money in the first place, as VAT is not supposed to be charged. The customer is not defrauded because you know the total price (however it is calculated) before committing to purchase.

But if the customer is led to believe that 13% or whatever of the price is a tax, and not part of the intrinsic value of the good, could that be fraud?

Honestly, I do not know much of anything about such tax laws. I think I get your point though. Am I on the right track?

DarkSoldier wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Empchild wrote:
It's really not hard to set up a web cart to not charge taxes to people outside a certain area.

Again, they aren't charging you taxes. They're just charging you the same total price that a tax-paying customer would have to pay, because you're willing to pay it. Why drop prices to reflect the lack of VAT when people are willing to buy at the higher VAT-equivalent price and you can collect extra profit?

I am not a lawyer, but I believe the act of adding the equivalent of VAT to a customer's purchase without explicitly stating that the VAT-equivalent is being added to the total is called fraud.

Not fraud...just GW being GW. All the prices which customers outside of the UK/EU pay include VAT. The base price that is used to determine prices are the prices with VAT, not without. GW customers seem happy enough to get beaten around, so GW is happy enough to beat them around with the prices.

However, that isnt to say that FW is above board in their invoicing policies. As a subsidiary of GW HQ, FW is obligated to collect local sales tax if big GW has a retail store in that state. Most states have a requirement for sales tax to be itemized on the reciept (or clearly stated as included in the price with each price). For example, Washington State statute WAC 458-20-107 has a few clauses which the FW site would likely be in violation of.

For those who would like to say FW is not GW, so they would not be considered as having an instate presence, an astute auditor from a state tax authority would simply need to point to the FW website, where the contact email is forgeworld@gwplc.com

All of that in mind, it is another example of why you can not assume that GW's lawyers and accountants know what they are doing.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:
HMRC

Mythal wrote:
HMRC

Koppo wrote:
HMC&E

Why does everyone blame me for everything?

Leave me out of this guys!!!











That was a joke, for the slow ones among you.

 kronk wrote:

 dragqueeninspace wrote:
Quick guys stock up on FW before the colonials lob it into the harbour. :-)

Exalted.

Bah, while some colonials are dumping treasure others are donning diving gear....

The Auld Grump - I once drank tea from the Boston Tea Party... some things never change... somebody is gonna fill his pockets with tea.

*EDIT* As an incidental note: Contrary to popular opinion the Boston Tea Party was not about high taxes - it was about the fact that the East India Tea Company didn't have to pay those same taxes....

 Peregrine wrote:
Well, if you think you've found a loophole (that GW's accounting/legal staff missed) feel free to try to get your refund. Just come back and admit it when you fail.

Just charge back your credit card for the disputed amount. Have all of your documentation in order.

GW\FW won't have a choice in the matter.

That post RHBC posted was worth reading the thread alone. I know I'd be laughing if I was HBP&G.

 Peregrine wrote:

DarkSoldier wrote:
]I am not a lawyer, but I believe the act of adding the equivalent of VAT to a customer's purchase without explicitly stating that the VAT-equivalent is being added to the total is called fraud.

How is it fraud? The price is listed clearly on the website, your shopping cart, the confirmation page, etc. You are well aware of what you are about to pay and what you will get before you commit to anything, there is no hidden fee added to the total once you've given them your credit card information. The fact that you don't like the way that total cost is determined doesn't make it fraud.

Why are you contrary for the sake of being contrary in every thread you participate in....

 Zande4 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

DarkSoldier wrote:
]I am not a lawyer, but I believe the act of adding the equivalent of VAT to a customer's purchase without explicitly stating that the VAT-equivalent is being added to the total is called fraud.

How is it fraud? The price is listed clearly on the website, your shopping cart, the confirmation page, etc. You are well aware of what you are about to pay and what you will get before you commit to anything, there is no hidden fee added to the total once you've given them your credit card information. The fact that you don't like the way that total cost is determined doesn't make it fraud.

Why are you contrary for the sake of being contrary in every thread you participate in....

If in fact he his, you probably answered your own question!

More to the point, any update on this one in terms of the on topic investigation?