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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 10:56:22
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Longtime Dakkanaut
West Midlands (UK)
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Sigvatr wrote:"Hey Matt!"
"Yeah"?
"We got a letter here!"
"Any money attached?"
"Not as far as I can see!"
"BURN IT"
Meanwhile at the company headquarters of Titleist.
"Boss?"
"Yeah?"
"We've got news that Sigvatr hasn't bought any new golf clubs from us in 2013 either. I believe he's still boycotting us!"
"Really? How long can he cope with staying away from the golf-hobby, and with it it's largest producer of stuff you need for the hobby."
"We are not sure. For years, our company psychologist have predicting that he'll cave eventually, but he's clearly made of sterner stuff."
"If we don't get Sigvatr back into the hobby soon, we'll be doomed!"
"Yes, Boss. It's clearly an emergency."
"Ok, complete new strategy. We'll start doing... what?"
"We don't know boss. He's never written us a letter, a note, not even an email? We're not even sure why he refuses to buy our product?"
"Crud..."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/15 10:57:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 10:58:14
Subject: Re:A letter to Games Workshop
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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[Meanwhile in Tom Kirby's office a letter is opened]
The first paragraph is read and digested. As is the second, his brow furrows slightly but he continues.
"I am now eighteen years old......"
It's at this point he won't care - not target demographic.
Send it to Jervis Jonson, he'll care but will be powerless to do anything about it.
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How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 10:58:47
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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That Ferrari boycott is working better than azreal's GW boycott.
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=F.MI#symbol=f.mi;range=5y;compare=gaw.l;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;
I suggest you halve the letter in length; get rid of the throat-clearing, eg " The purpose of this letter is to inform you of changes that have been perceived in the attitude and culture of Games Workshop by myself and a number of like minded hobbyists." Halve the lengths of those convoluted sentences. If you're going to complain about prices, be specific - find out what you paid in the old days, and compare that to today's prices. Get rid of the generalities - " I feel such acts are becoming all too commonplace" - and introduce more specifics.
IN short, get rid of the general moaning, and come up with a list of specific problems. Address the letter to named individuals, with a customised opening to each letter, to make it personal. That way, you might actually get a response. Good luck, I'd like to see it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 11:16:19
Subject: Re:A letter to Games Workshop
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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The purpose of this letter is to inform you of changes that have been perceived in the attitude and culture of Games Workshop by myself and a number of like minded hobbyists. This is not simply a list of complaints, and we are aware that there are two sides to every story. We are also aware that Games Workshop is, first and foremost, a business, and that making money has and will always be a primary goal. However, with that said, the attitude that recent events has revealed has me, my gaming group, and dozens if not hundreds of hobbyists I communicate with online, concerned for the future of both Games Workshop and our beloved hobby.
*Cut down the convoluted sentence structure here. It's just making your letter more dense without communicating any more information.
When I first started playing Warhammer 40,000, I was introduced to the hobby by a local Games Workshop hobby store where I attended a birthday party for one of my friends. We played a battle facilitated by a fantastically enthusiastic staff member, and I came away from the party a devote follower of the Greater Good. My next birthday, I asked for little else but the Tau codex and a few boxes to start my army. At that point, really the only way for me to obtain models was for my parents to get them for me, because the costs were astronomically out of reach for me. I remember that I played my first two years borrowing a friend’s rulebook because there was no way for me to afford my own. (It was $50 at the time, a price that now seems like a bargain).
*Not sure how this helps your case.
I am now eighteen years old, and still am a proud member of the Tau Empire. In fact, I have never collected another army. (I do own some High Elf models from Warhammer Fantasy, but I have never bought any other 40k models). There are two main reasons for this single-minded devotion: Firstly, I loved the tau and wanted to perfect my army before moving on, which I now know, is impossible. Secondly, it was utterly out of my financial means to focus on more than one army at a time. Once again, I stress that I am fully aware of a business’ main priority, and I am fully aware that Games Workshop is a business. However, it seems to me that the prices have continued to increase from those days when I first started playing to a point where I am currently scrolling through pages of Ebay listings for used Tau models rather than buy them from GW. I have not bought a new box directly from GW in some time, many months if not years. I am attending Northwestern University next year, and I have trouble enough paying for all of the things I need for that, and although I wish I could afford to buy some more fancy boxes of models, I simply cannot. As I look at the Games Workshop website right now, Codex: Tau Empire sells for 49.50 US dollars. A quick switch to the Australian website shows that it is 83 Australian dollars. A quick check on Google tells me that $49.50 in the United States is worth 54.64 Australian dollars. This price difference may well be explained away with shipping costs and old exchange rates and whatnot but the differential just seems to be an act of apathy that just so happens to net GW extra profit. I feel such acts are becoming all too commonplace. As food for thought, I will never be able to convince any of my non-hobbyist friends to pick up any GW hobby for the sole reason that it is far too expensive.
*Your personal circumstances are irrelevant to your argument, and I would leave your age out. When I see people making a big deal out of their age, it always makes me roll my eyes and not listen.
Rising prices in and of themselves are not the only distressing sign of change in GW. The entire hobby itself has seemed to lean more and more towards selling miniatures rather than growing a community of likeminded hobbyists and improving the games. Recent model releases have most literally become bigger and bigger, and such, justify I suppose, in the eyes of GW, bigger price tags. Model releases have become more frequent, and although many gamers welcome the increased pace, it again seems like a transparent ploy in order to pocket more money. Perhaps the most unsettling change is the apparent hostility towards what I call the “creativity of the hobby.” When Games Workshop released its new website, practically all of the hobby advice, terrain kits, and other Do-it-yourself vanished. No longer does the website describe how to create your own defense lines from cheap materials; it now sells expensive plastic models for that. Even the articles written on the website are nothing but shameless plugs for GW products regardless of actual opinions on them. White Dwarf was the most telling to me about the change in attitude at GW. The old White Dwarf was a wealth of hobby knowledge, a real conglomeration of more experienced hobbyists teaching me and other less experienced members of the hobby how to do clever tricks and build their own terrain. White Dwarf is now less of a hobby magazine and more of a product catalog.
*This is okay, but could be shorter and punchier.
As a final anecdote to support my claims, my local GW hobby store is the Chicago Bunker. (From the Internet I hear that it is one of the few surviving “bunker” stores, the rest are becoming one-man shops with no other goal but to sell product.) I have always been 100% pleased with the service and staff of this particular store. When they remodeled however, all of the beautifully crafted, lovingly painted, hand sculpted Citadel Realm of Battle tiles replaced tables, hastily dry brushed and thrown down. It is not an acceptable replacement. I understand the convenience of such a change, but I urge GW to look more closely at the things that they have labeled “inconveniences.” The hobby these days has started to feel less and less welcoming, and I know I speak for many others when I say I am drifting away from Games Workshop, the company that sparked my love for toy soldiers. I hate to see these changes occur, but I do see them occurring, and I fear that it will not be long until the hobby that I know and love is destroyed by greed. I hope that the reader of this letter takes these words to heart, and although I am sure that this letter will do little to change the corporate policy of Games Workshop, I am writing nonetheless in defense of the hobby that I have loved.
*The goal of every shop is to sell product, building a community is just the most effective way to do that. This is something you could expand simply by talking about what would keep you in the stores rather than complaining about the current situation- give them something to think about rather than relentless negativity.
Good luck.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 11:17:55
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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You forgot to give him a mark sir.
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How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 11:26:48
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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I'm on me holidays, I can't be expected to remember everything  !
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 11:39:11
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Revving Ravenwing Biker
New York City
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Zweischneid wrote:Meanwhile at the company headquarters of Titleist.
"Boss?"
"Yeah?"
"We've got news that Sigvatr hasn't bought any new golf clubs from us in 2013 either. I believe he's still boycotting us!"
"Really? How long can he cope with staying away from the golf-hobby, and with it it's largest producer of stuff you need for the hobby."
"We are not sure. For years, our company psychologist have predicting that he'll cave eventually, but he's clearly made of sterner stuff."
"If we don't get Sigvatr back into the hobby soon, we'll be doomed!"
"Yes, Boss. It's clearly an emergency."
"Ok, complete new strategy. We'll start doing... what?"
"We don't know boss. He's never written us a letter, a note, not even an email? We're not even sure why he refuses to buy our product?"
"Crud..."
I believe you already know this, but you're applying examples from a car company and a golf company to a miniature company.
I am no expert, but I believe all three companies have different products and different ways of managing themselves. And I probably shouldn't need to mention the thousands of other differences including customers, audience, scale of production, price, company profits, and the people who are running the show. You apply logic and principal to two things, and how you are relating it is reasonable, but perhaps you should think about it more before you attempt this trail of thought again.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/07/15 11:41:30
I will forever remain humble because I know I could have less.
I will always be grateful because I remember I've had less. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 12:19:57
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Zweischneid wrote: Sigvatr wrote:"Hey Matt!"
"Yeah"?
"We got a letter here!"
"Any money attached?"
"Not as far as I can see!"
"BURN IT"
Meanwhile at the company headquarters of Titleist.
"Boss?"
"Yeah?"
"We've got news that Sigvatr hasn't bought any new golf clubs from us in 2013 either. I believe he's still boycotting us!"
"Really? How long can he cope with staying away from the golf-hobby, and with it it's largest producer of stuff you need for the hobby."
"We are not sure. For years, our company psychologist have predicting that he'll cave eventually, but he's clearly made of sterner stuff."
"If we don't get Sigvatr back into the hobby soon, we'll be doomed!"
"Yes, Boss. It's clearly an emergency."
"Ok, complete new strategy. We'll start doing... what?"
"We don't know boss. He's never written us a letter, a note, not even an email? We're not even sure why he refuses to buy our product?"
"Crud..."
"Hey, do we still make a profit?"
"Yeah, boss!"
"Why do we care about that Sigvatr guy?"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 12:32:12
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Longtime Dakkanaut
West Midlands (UK)
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LumenPraebeo wrote:
I believe you already know this, but you're applying examples from a car company and a golf company to a miniature company.
I am no expert, but I believe all three companies have different products and different ways of managing themselves. And I probably shouldn't need to mention the thousands of other differences including customers, audience, scale of production, price, company profits, and the people who are running the show. You apply logic and principal to two things, and how you are relating it is reasonable, but perhaps you should think about it more before you attempt this trail of thought again.
Who cares what company it is?
The point is that, for every company in the world, there are more people not spending money on their products, than there are people spending money on their products.
For every person ("consumer"  in the world, there are more companies in the world they have never, and never will spend money on, than there are companies they will spend money on.
Whatever company you choose to pick, joining the 99.999999999999999999% of the world population that isn't spending money on company X in some form of "boycott" won't help you achieve anything. It doesn't mean anything to company X.
Being one of the 0.0000000000000000000001% of the world population that is (!) spending money on their products AND is writing a letter, you might have a chance to be heard. A small-to-non-existent-chance, true, but still a gazillion-times greater than the one you make with a boycott.
That is true for every single company in the world. No exceptions. Hence all examples (Ferrari, Golf, Goldman Sachs financial products, Privateer Press miniatures, whatever) are all equally valid examples as not one of them differs from the other in that particular aspect. The nature of the product is irrelevant, unless it is actually a product that > 50% of the world population buys (from a single company).
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/07/15 12:34:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 12:41:08
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Posts with Authority
I'm from the future. The future of space
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I think GW have doubled down on their current approach a few times now. I'm not their target market, so why would they care about a letter from someone who they're not really interested in as a customer?
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Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 12:44:02
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Longtime Dakkanaut
West Midlands (UK)
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frozenwastes wrote:I think GW have doubled down on their current approach a few times now. I'm not their target market, so why would they care about a letter from someone who they're not really interested in as a customer?
Why would they care if you're simply not buying stuff from them, and aren't even invested enough to make your dissatisfaction known, indicating that you might potentially be a customer?
For all they know, you might just be another person in the world who doesn't even know what a Space Marine is to begin with.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 13:04:11
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Drone without a Controller
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Zweischneid wrote:Who cares what company it is?
The point is that, for every company in the world, there are more people not spending money on their products, than there are people spending money on their products.
For every person ("consumer"  in the world, there are more companies in the world they have never, and never will spend money on, than there are companies they will spend money on.
Whatever company you choose to pick, joining the 99.999999999999999999% of the world population that isn't spending money on company X in some form of "boycott" won't help you achieve anything. It doesn't mean anything to company X.
Being one of the 0.0000000000000000000001% of the world population that is (!) spending money on their products AND is writing a letter, you might have a chance to be heard. A small-to-non-existent-chance, true, but still a gazillion-times greater than the one you make with a boycott.
That is true for every single company in the world. No exceptions. Hence all examples (Ferrari, Golf, Goldman Sachs financial products, Privateer Press miniatures, whatever) are all equally valid examples as not one of them differs from the other in that particular aspect. The nature of the product is irrelevant, unless it is actually a product that > 50% of the world population buys (from a single company).
Just wanted to point out that there is a significant difference between someone who has never been a customer not buying a company's products and someone who has been a loyal and repeat customer not buying a company's products.
If 90% of the former boycott GW, it's business as usual.
If 90% of the latter boycott GW, they go out of business.
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: Because I'm sure as hell not going all the way over there to kill you.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 13:21:25
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Longtime Dakkanaut
West Midlands (UK)
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redthirst wrote:
Just wanted to point out that there is a significant difference between someone who has never been a customer not buying a company's products and someone who has been a loyal and repeat customer not buying a company's products.
And I just wanted to point out that there isn't. Not a goddamn difference in the world.
GW's business model doesn't thrive (or depend) on repeat business.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/15 13:22:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 13:36:03
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Fixture of Dakka
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Comparing Finecrap to a Ferrari, what a screwed up analogy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 13:44:36
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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Aside from the whole, non-essential luxury item thing, you're completely right.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 13:46:56
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Drone without a Controller
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Zweischneid wrote: redthirst wrote:
Just wanted to point out that there is a significant difference between someone who has never been a customer not buying a company's products and someone who has been a loyal and repeat customer not buying a company's products.
And I just wanted to point out that there isn't. Not a goddamn difference in the world.
GW's business model doesn't thrive (or depend) on repeat business.
Yeah, there is.
1 person who is a loyal customer of a company who stops buying has a greater impact than 1,000 people who have never bought and never will buy.
That's why businesses care about customers and don't give a gak about anyone who isn't a customer (except in the context of how they can be turned into customers).
To use your analogy: Ferrari cares a hell of a lot more about losing the business of the guy who buys every one of their new models every year than about "losing" your business - the guy who has no intention of ever buying one of their cars anyway.
So yes, there is a significant goddamn difference.
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: Because I'm sure as hell not going all the way over there to kill you.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 13:51:39
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Longtime Dakkanaut
West Midlands (UK)
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redthirst wrote:
Yeah, there is.
1 person who is a loyal customer of a company who stops buying has a greater impact than 1,000 people who have never bought and never will buy.
That's why businesses care about customers and don't give a gak about anyone who isn't a customer (except in the context of how they can be turned into customers).
To use your analogy: Ferrari cares a hell of a lot more about losing the business of the guy who buys every one of their new models every year than about "losing" your business - the guy who has no intention of ever buying one of their cars anyway.
So yes, there is a significant goddamn difference.
No.
Because 99.999% of people who buy Ferrari, only ever buy one in their life. Sure, that repeat-guy is nice, but not even Ferrari can build its business on him (or her). Its a bonus.
Similarly, 99.999% of GW's business is the guys (and very few girls) that buy their first box or two of miniatures. Most never come back and drop it within a week, or within a month at the latest. Sure, the plastic-addicts are nice, a bonus, but GW's business doesn't depend on them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 13:51:59
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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I always read about this whole, "GW doesn't care about repeat business" and "GW doesn't care about the older collector."
Doesn't Apocalypse and it's original intent sort of spit in the face of that assertation?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 13:55:57
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Longtime Dakkanaut
West Midlands (UK)
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cincydooley wrote:I always read about this whole, " GW doesn't care about repeat business" and " GW doesn't care about the older collector."
Doesn't Apocalypse and it's original intent sort of spit in the face of that assertation?
There's a difference between " are there enough people buying this stuff to make it worthwhile" (not only Apocalypse. Arguably Forge World in its entirety builds on these people) and " GW as a business would feel a pinch if these people all leave".
Games Workshop would do just fine if they wouldn't sell a single Apocalypse 40K book. Games Workshop would do just fine if Forge World had to close because all the customers for " 40K-but-all-serious-and-sophisticated" went somewhere else.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 14:04:27
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Drone without a Controller
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Zweischneid wrote: redthirst wrote:
Yeah, there is.
1 person who is a loyal customer of a company who stops buying has a greater impact than 1,000 people who have never bought and never will buy.
That's why businesses care about customers and don't give a gak about anyone who isn't a customer (except in the context of how they can be turned into customers).
To use your analogy: Ferrari cares a hell of a lot more about losing the business of the guy who buys every one of their new models every year than about "losing" your business - the guy who has no intention of ever buying one of their cars anyway.
So yes, there is a significant goddamn difference.
No.
Because 99.999% of people who buy Ferrari, only ever buy one in their life. Sure, that repeat-guy is nice, but not even Ferrari can build its business on him (or her). Its a bonus.
Similarly, 99.999% of GW's business is the guys (and very few girls) that buy their first box or two of miniatures. Most never come back and drop it within a week, or within a month at the latest. Sure, the plastic-addicts are nice, a bonus, but GW's business doesn't depend on them.
Perhaps, but your argument is based on saying that a regular and repeat customer boycotting a company is = someone who has never and has no intention of ever being a customer boycotting that company - which is completely false.
I mean, this isn't exactly advanced theoretical ecomonics we're talking about, just go to your local business and ask them which group would hurt them more by boycotting their business:
1. The regular customers, or
2. People who have never and would never (boycott or not) spend money there anyway.
I guarantee you that a boycott by one of those groups would have a different impact than the other.
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: Because I'm sure as hell not going all the way over there to kill you.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 14:29:48
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Longtime Dakkanaut
West Midlands (UK)
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redthirst wrote:
Perhaps, but your argument is based on saying that a regular and repeat customer boycotting a company is = someone who has never and has no intention of ever being a customer boycotting that company - which is completely false.
I mean, this isn't exactly advanced theoretical ecomonics we're talking about, just go to your local business and ask them which group would hurt them more by boycotting their business:
1. The regular customers, or
2. People who have never and would never (boycott or not) spend money there anyway.
I guarantee you that a boycott by one of those groups would have a different impact than the other.
A person not spending money is a person not spending money either way.
Go ask your local business who they'd rather listen to concerning improvements of their offers. People who aren't spending money (former customers or not) or people who are spending money (as new customers or not).
I guarantee you, most (in fact all) businesses try to cater to the people spending money, not the people not spending money.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/15 14:30:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 14:35:15
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The letter and this thread are a waste of time.
Nothing is going to change and GW doesn't care.
The only real hope is that 3D printing gets affordable and effective enough to force GW to respond. It is the real key to drive change at GW at this point.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/15 14:42:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 14:37:31
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Civil War Re-enactor
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Forget 3D printers. Bring out the torches and pitchforks. They'll listen to those.
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Shotgun wrote:I don't think I will ever understand the mentality of people that feel the need to record and post their butthurt on the interwebs. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 14:40:30
Subject: Re:A letter to Games Workshop
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I'm new to wargaming altogether having just started up my first wh40k army, but one of my reasons for taking it up as a hobby is that it is a relatively cheap hobby to participate in. I know some of you have already started frothing at the mouth at that statement, but I have lots of hobbies, and warhammer is pretty affordable. I'll get to that in a second, but first let me be on topic and address your letter OP.
First of all, you keep stressing how you don't have the resources to put more money into said hobby. That's completely irrelevant to GW or any other business for that matter. Why are you telling them this? Is it to make them think, "oh dear, someone doesn't have a lot of money and we should ensure that we cater to people who can't really afford a hobby?" I understand that you're young, your mindset reflects this as you don't have a measured view of reality, and you're speaking from a very shallow perspective. If your intention is to highlight GW's misdeeds and the negative impacts of their rising prices, you're going to have to put forth a much better argument than, "it's too expensive for me and I'm going to college and I had to borrow a rulebook and it's sad so please feel bad for me!" Yes, you wrote it much more nicely than that, but that's all your narrative amounts to.
Then you tell them which army you play and why you only play that army. Again, irrelevant. If you're point is that their behavior is creating negativity within the wargaming community, you need to provide something that illustrates that. Rising costs are a symptom of something, but you're not identifying it. Then you come out of nowhere with the cost for a codex to Australia, you try to account for this by waving away shipping costs, but there's more going on with international order than that. But how did you not bother to look at the UK Tau codex at 30GBP which clocks in at 45USD while we stateside pay $50. That's about right in terms of variation. Do you know how much it would cost me to ship a codex to Australia with the USPS? $44. That's the shipping cost for an express envelope, not even a thin box. Look, I run a small hobby business handcrafting leather bags, I've shipped to Australia. It's expensive. It was a bizarre point to bring up, and only exacerbated by the fact that you didn't really bother to do your due diligence. Not to mention as an individual, you don't cost out your time - so my time spent packing and going to the post office and "processing" the transaction at home via email/ebay/whatever is counted as $0. It's not $0 at a business. You say you're heading to college, please take a couple business courses while you're there. The cost to ship a package includes the cost of staff, cost of general operations and many other things averaged out throughout each and every product or action a company takes.
I'm not saying GW isn't cranking prices up, I'm just saying that your argument so far holds no water.
Your next point about selling minis vs growing community is both correct and arbitrary. In the early stages of business development, a business is very concerned with growth and attracting new consumers. So it's only reasonable for a gaming company to pursue community in effort to survive and grow. Once maturity has been reached and a market saturated, it's more about efficiency of operations and finding ways to get the most money from your customer base. You can look at your favorite up and coming wargaming company, if they are around in 10 years, they'll be doing the same thing. A business doesn't stay in the initial growth stages of business forever. Only until they're entrenched in the market, then they shift to increase profit making (all businesses want to get there as fast as possible).
And you toss in a bit about battle bunkers disappearing. Okay, I'm new, I haven't been to a bunker, but I can pretty much tell you what is going on from a business standpoint. You are over-valuing yourself and other wargaming enthusiasts value to the hobby. In your mind, you're thinking, we create community and attract more players! That's what keeps this hobby going! Yes and no. Community does help a great deal, but it's not really you're job to grow the hobby. You are helpful right up until you're not. A normal retail store (of most types) will cost around $100k - $500k per year to operate (lots of factors going into this salaries, insurance, licenses, utilities, taxes, lease, inventory, so lets just stick with a range). FLGS's need active communities because that's it for them. They are one small shop with no other markets than their local gamers. E-commerce has helped in this regard, but the locals will always make up the bulk of your business. So it's ALWAYS important for a FLGS to keep community active and friendly. GW is an international company with known branding and sold everywhere. There outlets are for market presence and to reinforce that branding. So even if some kid never goes in one, the fact that they're familiar with the logo will increase their likelihood of purchasing GW branded products in a FLGS. That's just how marketing works, it's the reason Coke and Pepsi still advertise despite being household names. You have to keep that mindshare.
Now, let's take the low end of operating costs for a retail outlet ~ $100k. Let's say that store has 10 regulars who play there all the time. If each of those regulars ONLY shop there for WH stuff and spend $1000/yr that's only $10k. Each of those 10 people would need to attract 9 new people who would also spend $1000/yr just for that store to break even. That's 90 new players per year being brought in by existing community members. Possible? Yes. Likely? Maybe. Common? No. But you start running into two major business flaws that Games Workshop has created for itself and is trying to make up for at a late point in their business life.
Used goods and Relatively finite gaming needs of players.
Here's where GW screwed up. They created a game which is actually very cheap, and only gets cheaper to play as time goes on. When looking at it as an upfront bulk cost, it can look intimidating, but when you break it down (I'll do so below) you'll see how affordable it is. There is no planned obsolescence. Most other companies have identified this as a way to drive business, GW never did. For example, you have your Tau army, you go off to college and in four years you get the itch to chuck some dice, you still have a tau army. The rules might have slightly changed, but you shouldn't have much issue playing with what you have. Take a look at MTG if you want a look at a properly greedy business model. Four sets per year, rotating with each block! You can drop $500 on a top tier deck, and within three months you'll have to spend more to keep it up to date. Then the real kicker comes when the block rotates out and your deck is now defunct and you need to make a new one.
GW's other nemesis are used good. Because they have a static game that only changes slightly, players can buy used. So if we take a gander at that "why no community!" example above, those 10 regular probably stopped buying full retail price goods a few months after starting. And the worst part is, is that those community members share secrets on how to do things cheaper and where to get those things. So even when they do attract a new player, they tell that person to go here for cheaper paints, go there for conversions and so on. So the community is actually poisoning the well while simultaneously not buying at full retail. I know the counter to that is, "well if product were cheaper, they wouldn't look for alternatives." Yes they would, because the used market would be even more affordable than before. No one would buy used if it's more than retail cost.
I have no stake in GW, I'm not a loyalist (I just started two weeks ago) but you're way off the mark in terms of your assessment of GW's business practices. Now for my silly shorthand maths:
Time spent in hobby:
52 hours/yr @ 1hr per game, 1 game per week
60 hours painting @2hrs / figure (approx. 30 figures for 1000 point SM army)
Cost of hobby
$360 Army cost - $20 captain, $80 two tactical squads, $40 rhino, $40 razorback, $47 dreadnought, $40 drop pod, $33 assault squad, $60 predator (I just found a 1k pt list on google, please ignore it's quality as far as gameplay would go).
$132 Painting materials - $67 brush set, $12 three base colors, $12 three shade colors, $12 three layer 1, $12 three layer 2, $17 black primer
$117 Additional costs - $42 codex, $75 Rulebook
Total costs:
$609
Value of WH40K over time
$5.44 /hr in the first year
$3.71 /hr in the second year assuming no army additions
$2.82/hr in the third year assuming no army additions
+1000 points addition to army
$247 Total for $100 - 10 terminators, $80 - 5 bikes, $22 - Librarian, $45 - 5 sternguard
42 hours @ 2hrs / figure ( 21 figures in addition)
Overall time spent in hobby:
154 hours
Overall total costs:
$856
Value of 2000 point army over time
$5.56 /hr in the first year
$4.16 /hr in the second year
$3.32 /hr in the third year
This does not take into account increased time to paint larger models such as vehicles and or conversions. Based on what I found from internet searches most people take roughly 2 -3 hours. Outliers being people who are extremely experienced who can paint very quickly 1hr or less or those who want each model to be better than tabletop quality taking 4 or more hours to paint a model.
Taking 1 extra hour per model adds 51 hours for total time spent in hobby which changes the overall time to 205, making the 2000 point value $4.18 in the first year which is over a dollar per hour better.
I can also imagine that people play more than one game when they do decide to play, probably 2-3 games, which I figured would be balanced out by frequency of game dates.
So this one army continues to get cheaper over time while still being playable. The paint can continue to be used on new collections so those costs aren’t incurred again (at least not at such a large rate, you might pick up a few more pots or buy another brand altogether, but I wanted to do this example with just GW product at retail prices). Should you buy another army to start, your initial costs will be lower as you’ll just be buying a codex (don’t need rule book) and fewer paint need (no brushes either). You can also lower your costs by buying cheaper alternatives, like spray primer for $5 instead of $17. And making your own brush set for $25 at an art store.
This is something I urge people to do when they look at their expenses and/or are trying to evaluate how much a particular form of entertainment is worth. Let's look at other common forms of entertainment to determine if $5/hr is good value.
Cable TV:
Average person watches 34 hours per week (136 hr/mo). Comcast (ignoring 6 month signing discount) has it's 160 channels for about $75 + another $15 for HBO per month. That's $0.66 per hour of entertainment. So you can see why TV is far and away such a popular way to pass the time.
Movies:
Average cost of a movie ticket is about $8 (yes, I know, no one in any major city can even remember such a low price, but that's roughly the national average). A movie is about 2hrs. That's $4/hr value. Assuming no purchases of foodstuffs at the theatre.
Video Games:
$60 for most new releases. Most AAA games are running around 6-12 hours. That's a range of $10/hr to $5/hr.
Reading a book:
A new book is around $25. Probably around 10 hours of reading time. So $2.50/hr value for reading a book.
Indoor Soccer:
$80 for about 8 games (unless you're a winning team, in which case you play in semis and finals), game is an hour, $10 per hour.
So about $5 per hour in the first year using pretty conservative time estimates isn't bad. If you're someone who like to convert or spends more time painting or plays a lot, that value just keeps getting better and better. You can't just isolate the cost and say, "omg why am I spending so much?" You're not. That's an initial outlay, and it can be expensive, but the overall costs are quite reasonable. And the fact that armies don't rotate out constantly is tremendous. Even video games require you to get a new console to keep up with new releases, extra controller to play with friends, internet for multi-player, TV/monitor to play it on.
Again, I want to remind you that I'm not saying that GW is running things well and doing right by it's customer, but you need to remember that businesses are a little more complicated than put forth by internet denizens. And remember, small companies are going to be fast, responsive, creative and looking to cultivate a community. But don't be surprised when they change.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 14:50:26
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Drone without a Controller
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Zweischneid wrote: redthirst wrote:
Perhaps, but your argument is based on saying that a regular and repeat customer boycotting a company is = someone who has never and has no intention of ever being a customer boycotting that company - which is completely false.
I mean, this isn't exactly advanced theoretical ecomonics we're talking about, just go to your local business and ask them which group would hurt them more by boycotting their business:
1. The regular customers, or
2. People who have never and would never (boycott or not) spend money there anyway.
I guarantee you that a boycott by one of those groups would have a different impact than the other.
A person not spending money is a person not spending money either way.
Go ask your local business who they'd rather listen to concerning improvements of their offers. People who aren't spending money (former customers or not) or people who are spending money (as new customers or not).
I guarantee you, most (in fact all) businesses try to cater to the people spending money, not the people not spending money.
Businesses care about lost customers. They want to know why the customer quit spending money with them and they want to get them back.
A large percentage of your customers boycotting your product will hurt your business.
A large percentage of people who were never and never intended to be your customers boycotting your product doesn't mean gak.
That's why if the entirety of the Ferrari community decided to not buy GW products then GW probably wouldn't even notice (because 99% of them most likely weren't spending money with GW anyway), but if the entirety of the gaming community decided to not buy GW products then GW probably would notice.
Because someone who is a potential customer deciding not to spend money on your products means a hell of a lot more than someone who was never a potential customer deciding not to spend money on your products.
So no, a person not spending money is =/= to any other person not spending money.
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: Because I'm sure as hell not going all the way over there to kill you.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 14:56:21
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Longtime Dakkanaut
West Midlands (UK)
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redthirst wrote:
Businesses care about lost customers. They want to know why the customer quit spending money with them and they want to get them back.
Because someone who is a potential customer deciding not to spend money on your products means a hell of a lot more than someone who was never a potential customer deciding not to spend money on your products.
So no, a person not spending money is =/= to any other person not spending money.
But how would you convince GW (or any company) that you are indeed such a potential customer (and not a never-would-even-consider-customer) if not by spending some money or, at the very least, writing a letter?
For all intents and purposes, you may well be a "never-a-potential-customer" unless you make the effort to communicate, as done by the OP.
I am not disagreeing that - academically speaking - there is a difference between these two types of customers you describe. For practical purposes, i.e. the information and "market signals" that'll arrive in Nottingham, there isn't.
Hell, while I am likely not a potential Ferrari customer, I am pretty sure I am a potential .. hmm .. Privateer Press or Corvus Belli customer... if they did things differently. I even have a free Horde Druid-event mini somewhere that I won in a raffle. Still, my lack of purchases from either company has not yet motivated them to tailor their product more to my preferences (to which they are also oblivious, I would assume, given that I've never written them a letter). Absence of money spend is not a viable signal a business can interpret.
Privateer would never know whether or not they could win me as a customer, if they did things differently, nor could Ferrari. I know that Privateer may stand a better chance than Ferrari (in theory), but they don't.
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This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2013/07/15 15:06:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 15:19:28
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I always remind people in situations like this to take a step back and realise that communities like this are incredibly skewed in opinion. The people who are happy with their hobby get on with it, those who are not sit on forums and moan about it. The situation isn't as dire as you make out, nor is the GW hobby as a whole as doomed as some on this site would like to think. Its just Dakka as a community is one of the most rabidly anti-GW I've ever seen.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 15:20:59
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Drone without a Controller
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Zweischneid wrote: redthirst wrote:
Businesses care about lost customers. They want to know why the customer quit spending money with them and they want to get them back.
Because someone who is a potential customer deciding not to spend money on your products means a hell of a lot more than someone who was never a potential customer deciding not to spend money on your products.
So no, a person not spending money is =/= to any other person not spending money.
But how would you convince GW (or any company) that you are indeed such a potential customer (and not a never-would-even-consider-customer) if not by spending some money or, at the very least, writing a letter?
For all intents and purposes, you may well be a "never-a-potential-customer" unless you make the effort to communicate, as done by the OP.
This has nothing to do with our discussion about your falacious comparision of a 40k gamer deciding to not buying GW to someone who'd never buy a Ferrari anyway deciding to not buy a Ferrari, but whatevs, I'll bite.
I'd imagine that if a large percentage of people who were spending money on GW quit doing so then they'd probably notice it. Do it enough and even the most stubborn business will decide that whatever they're doing isn't working.
GW may think that kids buying one or two sets are the foundation of their business, but I imagine that the only reason those kids get interested in the first place is because they saw a game (at least, that was my experience). No repeat customers playing the game means less of those kids buying one or two sets and then quitting.
It's obvious GW cares about 1 thing: money (which is only proper - they are a business), but they don't seem to recognize that there is any sort of link between keeping their player base happy and making money - and maybe there isn't, which is why they've ignored the letters and the forum grumbling etc. because, at the end of the day, most of the people that bitch and complain still go out and buy all the new toys GW puts out.
I don't have a dog in this fight because GW's practices don't really bother me that much (though it'd be nice to be able to get a game of 40k on as easily as it was a decade ago), but if I had to choose between getting letters or losing money I know which one I'd pick and I know which one would more likely make me reevaluate my business model.
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: Because I'm sure as hell not going all the way over there to kill you.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 15:42:59
Subject: A letter to Games Workshop
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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Stormphoenix wrote:I always remind people in situations like this to take a step back and realise that communities like this are incredibly skewed in opinion. The people who are happy with their hobby get on with it, those who are not sit on forums and moan about it. The situation isn't as dire as you make out, nor is the GW hobby as a whole as doomed as some on this site would like to think. Its just Dakka as a community is one of the most rabidly anti- GW I've ever seen.
Hahah, good luck with this line, I am sure some of the regular poster will be along soon.
Best recent example I can think of was the oft-repeated post about LOTR troops doubling in price. It's been posted here several times - but point out that prices actually went up 33%, and the poor sensitive haters get all upset. They can't bear the prospect of anybody puncturing their World Of Misery!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 16:00:45
Subject: Re:A letter to Games Workshop
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Zweischneid wrote:If you don't like Ferrari, take any other company you are not (!) spending money on.
Has your lack of spending affected their behaviour as a company? Put them under pressure? Forced them to change their ways?
Writing a letter, however minuscule the impact may be, is still infinitely more effective at making your dissatisfaction heard than "stop spending".
How about we forget a Ferrari, and substitute it with a company that has some point in time received a sizeable portion of my disposable income, and now no longer does?
Now you're getting it!
The fact remains I am a potential Ferrari, or, personally I would have gone with Aston Martin, but whatevs, customer. Should I have a change in financial circumstances, I am still potentially a customer of theirs, or any (many!) other luxury car brands. In comparison, I WAS a confirmed GW only hobbyist, I had no interest in expanding my gaming beyond 40K. I am no longer a GW customer, I have broadened my horizons and diverted my funds to their direct competition in their own marketplace.
Edit: Just to clarify a point raised by another poster ( think it was Oblivion) I am not on a GW boycott. If they produce something I really want or feel I need, I will purchase it, my MMPB copy of Angel Exterminatus arrived just this weekend) If they make things I want, at a reasonable price, they will get my money as a reward from me. They have just spectacularly failed to do so either regularly or in significant amounts for some time.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/15 16:07:13
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
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