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I understand people bitch and moan about the prices at GW, and they believe that it is just price gouging for the sake of it. There will be some key metrics as to why prices go up and the value that they do. I’m not arguing that add a bit of extra on top however how many people in here have worked in a supply chain business and/or been part of the business that is at the top of said supply chain and actually know the makeup of the financials, impact on cash flow etc.
All things have a big impact. Let’s just take white dwarf as an example. Each year the cost of paper goes up by approximately 8%. The print house costs will go up (normally 5-8%) fuel prices go up (not too sure what the exact percentage is here). In the UK the introduction of the auto enrolled pension where the company has to match at least up to 5% of contributions.
Now as GW is PLC based all group profit from other regions will be fed back into the PLC, therefore ant fluctuation in exchange rate can massive hit profitability figures.
Also from the costs they will have to cover the cost of national insurance contributions, tax, employee wages and other financial benefits, the cost of their finances and holding. They will also have to write off depreciations of equipments against their profit.
This is all just using WD as an example. If we take into account the miniatures, any ramp up in production will result in more staff having to be recruited due to H&S laws even if this means that they are not at their most optimum. Large drop off will result in redundancies which cost a company that is solvent an arm and a leg. Need to factor in the fluctuating costs of oil, as well as the cost of the machinery maintenance (for those where they directly own the machine ie Lenton factory)
Im sure there are far more variable that will impact the cost of production, the company over heads ( staff, stores, utility bills etc) all of these factor in. GW is not a not for profit company set up for the good of the hobby, they cannot (due to shareholders) just absorb increases in costs, they have to pass these on.
Also their key market is the younger age group because like has been previously mentioned are the group which is forking over the most cash. If they retain just a small fraction of these it’s a bargain as there will always be more kids being born etc.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying I like the price increases however they are a business and it’s simply more than a yearly price increase just because they can, there are a lot of complex issues which directly and indirectly feed into the costs. Do you think a new store instantly breaks even? I wonder what the payback time is for these? There are multitudes of reasons.
People keep saying they should lower their prices and more people would buy stuff, well their market is the first time kids, dropping the prices won’t necessarily increase the volume of kids who get involved in these, to justify this.
Sorry for this rant, but I get annoyed when people just moan about prices without even considering what may be behind them. Also management clearly aren’t that incompetent as the hobby is still growing and expanding into new areas so this seems to counteract what people are saying.
(edited for spacings)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/17 18:45:41
skink007 wrote: If you were the Overlord of Games Workshop with singular unquestionable power over every aspect of the companies process and policy (just for the sake of argument), what would you do if you suddenly had a completely unexplained drop in sales? Raise prices, cut expenses. However, if a group of concerned customers had written you letters detailing why they weren't spending money on your products anymore, you may actually figure out an effective way to save your company rather than entering into a positive feedback loop in which you continue to raise prices to combat the lack of customers.
I would do what EVERY OTHER multi-million dollar company would do. Market research, I wouldn't look at a pile of letters hopeing the answer was there. Becouse I would want to keep my job.
@Cammy, now way don't other model company raise price the same % GW dose every year. Or do they not have the same cost raise for some reason, I know that don't jack up there price each year. I would really like to hear why you think that.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/07/17 19:04:20
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
cammy wrote: I understand people bitch and moan about the prices at GW, and they believe that it is just price gouging for the sake of it. There will be some key metrics as to why prices go up and the value that they do. I’m not arguing that add a bit of extra on top however how many people in here have worked in a supply chain business and/or been part of the business that is at the top of said supply chain and actually know the makeup of the financials, impact on cash flow etc.
All things have a big impact. Let’s just take white dwarf as an example. Each year the cost of paper goes up by approximately 8%. The print house costs will go up (normally 5-8%) fuel prices go up (not too sure what the exact percentage is here). In the UK the introduction of the auto enrolled pension where the company has to match at least up to 5% of contributions.
Now as GW is PLC based all group profit from other regions will be fed back into the PLC, therefore ant fluctuation in exchange rate can massive hit profitability figures.
Also from the costs they will have to cover the cost of national insurance contributions, tax, employee wages and other financial benefits, the cost of their finances and holding. They will also have to write off depreciations of equipments against their profit.
This is all just using WD as an example. If we take into account the miniatures, any ramp up in production will result in more staff having to be recruited due to H&S laws even if this means that they are not at their most optimum. Large drop off will result in redundancies which cost a company that is solvent an arm and a leg. Need to factor in the fluctuating costs of oil, as well as the cost of the machinery maintenance (for those where they directly own the machine ie Lenton factory)
Im sure there are far more variable that will impact the cost of production, the company over heads ( staff, stores, utility bills etc) all of these factor in. GW is not a not for profit company set up for the good of the hobby, they cannot (due to shareholders) just absorb increases in costs, they have to pass these on.
Also their key market is the younger age group because like has been previously mentioned are the group which is forking over the most cash. If they retain just a small fraction of these it’s a bargain as there will always be more kids being born etc.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying I like the price increases however they are a business and it’s simply more than a yearly price increase just because they can, there are a lot of complex issues which directly and indirectly feed into the costs. Do you think a new store instantly breaks even? I wonder what the payback time is for these? There are multitudes of reasons.
People keep saying they should lower their prices and more people would buy stuff, well their market is the first time kids, dropping the prices won’t necessarily increase the volume of kids who get involved in these, to justify this.
Sorry for this rant, but I get annoyed when people just moan about prices without even considering what may be behind them. Also management clearly aren’t that incompetent as the hobby is still growing and expanding into new areas so this seems to counteract what people are saying.
(edited for spacings)
Your points about raw material costs are valid, except the actual, intrinsic cost increase on the materials used to produce either WD or a kit are tiny, as the cost of materials is a small percentage of the total cost of production. Therefore, a price rise in line with inflation would cover these rises, and no one could really grumble at that. GW frequently raises prices above inflation, so that somewhat undermines your point.
Also, increased staffing, and the proportionate increase in costs, in order to increase output, should only happen if the organisation is fairly confident that it will lead to an increase in sales that is at least in line to those costs. Now, they can get that wrong, of course, but crediting GW with at least enough nouse to know their market will respond to more stuff produced by buying more stuff, these increased costs shouldn't affect the profitability (as income should rise proportionately) so again, cannot be used to justify price increases.
Just to add a personal note, while many would label me a 'hater' (in reality my attitude is more complex, but hey, it's the internets, no shades of grey here) I have never advocated GW cut prices, I just feel they offer poor value, which is different, and much more easily addressed. Throwing an extra sprue in a troop box without increasing RRP would have very little impact on the cost to GW (cost per sprue produced, especially on established kits that have recouped tooling costs must literally be pennies) but a massive boost to value for the final consumer. Instead, GW have on several occasions done the exact opposite.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Games Workshop 6221 E Holmes Road Memphis, TN USA 38141
Dear sir or madam,
RE: - Return of two boxes of defective Chaos Space Marine Raptors File No.: - unknown --------------------------------- I write to you with regard to the above noted matter, pursuant to conversation with your service agents. To say the least, I am deeply dissatisfied with your product and your companies conduct with regard to this matter. I—and my wallet—have been frustrated by your company’s pricing and market policies, though I have always understood your imperative to remain competitive, yield dividends to investors and protect your intellectual product and continued to support your company. However, the quality of the Finecast line of product has done more damage to my willingness to support your company than any of your company’s changes or policies over the past ten years.
After the change from metal to resin was initiated by your company, I waited for your customers to report on the quality of the product before committing to any further purchases of any product produced by your company. Between the price increase and the scathing review of the quality of the initial Finecast products, I did not make any purchases, expecting that over time such issues would be resolved. The initial reports seemed fairly hopeful given the ease with which a replacement was obtained, and that flaws can be expected with the first batch. After a year on the market, and repeated reports of defective products in addition to repeated requests for replacements, I anticipated that the upcoming Finecast releases would resolve the issues reported in previous releases and that the issues present in previous editions would be resolved as well. I perused multiple forums on the internet and conducted my research as to how the issues around Finecast were proceeding. Having found no definitive answers (given that it’s granted that complaints are made more often and more loudly than praise), I proceeded on a leap of faith—and a steep discount—to purchase the Finecast Raptors in order to replace the metal versions of the same models I already had in my possession.
To say the least, I am deeply disappointed. This was my first ever purchase of your Finecast product and was disappointed by the garage-grade quality of the casts. Referring you your website, the description of Citadel Finecast provides the following:
“Miniatures bearing this logo are part of the Citadel Finecast range. All citadel models are incredibly detailed, high-quality resin kits.”
After having taken the liberty of comparing the new resin product against its metal predecessor, I found no difference in the quality of detail which your advertising campaign was predicated on. Whether the poor quality of the cast of the resin has anything to do with this, I am unsure, but on comparing the deformities, two boxes of resin models sold by your company featured more problems than I have ever experienced in my lifetime’s purchases of metal products from your company. Further comparisons also highlighted frustration surrounding the placement of the gates on the resin models. I had no qualms or problems with removing flash from metal or plastic models, but it is readily apparent that I can expect to expend more time and effort in cleaning and preparing the resin models than any plastic counterparts manufactured by your company.
When a company advertises that the product it produces is high-quality, I fully expect that the item I purchase will be in as-advertised conditions. I have purchased resin products from a number of your competitors on numerous occasions, many of which were garage-based operations, and never observed the scope of defects in the material or the models produced by those companies as can be observed in your product.
My first experience in purchasing resin products from your company has me concerned first that quality control is absent and second that your company has no intention of rectifying or acknowledging any issues with your line of products. I expect that when I purchase your product, I will not be required to expend any effort to restore the product to as-advertised condition. I accept that flash and mould lines need to be removed, but filing gaps, bending an unyielding substance back into shape and sculpting missing details onto the model do not strike me as hallmarks of a high quality product. I do not find it acceptable that at $55 CAD per box, and with the advertising campaign behind the Citadel Finecast line of product that bubbles, warping and miscasting of a model’s components is normal. If your company was based out of a garage, the quality evidenced in the above-noted boxes I purchased would be expected. Given that your company has been on the market for over twenty five years and enjoys a presence on every continent and pre-eminence in the world of miniature war gaming, the fact that I am not able to produce one box that satisfies your advertising standards from the two boxes I purchased, the quality control evidenced by my purchase, and the public relations disaster your company apparently insists on ignoring, on web forums is abysmal. By extension, given that the models and components in both boxes showed problems in the same places, as for instance on the inside rims of the jump-packs, the same suggests much to be desired by your casting process.
As a comparison, the resin products from Privateer Press show a higher degree of quality, made from a sturdier material, with infrequent miscasts. I have even purchased resin products from garage operations that featured fewer miscasts than the above-noted Citadel Finecast products. Further, I feel vindicated in the fact that over the past twelve months, all of the products I have purchased—speaking specifically with regard to those that have received the Finecast treatment—I have only ever purchased the metal variants second hand. With the public history of Citadel Finecast products, the only fact that enticed me to purchase the above-noted product was a steep discount from Miniwargaming, and a leap of faith that your company had had sufficient time to resolve the issues surrounding the casting process.
Pursuant to calls to your customer service agents, I am returning the defective products for replacement as instructed, however, for the reasons outlined above as well as my conversations with your other customers that have experienced the same issues with the Citadel Finecast line of products—who have in some cases exchanged defective models as many as seven times in the case of the limited edition models released for the 25th anniversary of Warhammer 40’000—I will accept a replacement only once. I refuse to invest any more time and effort to receive the product I paid for, given especially that I need to take time out of my work day to deal with this problem. I take this opportunity to advise you that if the replacements do not satisfy an acceptable standard of quality, I will be demanding a full refund of $75.08 CAD. For your benefit and ease of reference with regard to this file, I enclose a copy of the invoice. Lastly, I will also discontinue all future purchases from your company and its subsidiaries until your line of Citadel Finecast products matches, at the very least, the standards established by your plastic kits and the market.
I await your response and replacements, and remain,
Yours truly,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Encl.
as noted on page 1. It's been done before, and all it's done is provided some of the up-highs in GW with plenty of toilet paper and reduced the heating bills from all of the paper they had to burn...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/17 19:19:18
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: Now, even if you think that's a wrong move, you have to acknowledge they have a business strategy which goes beyond "keep shoving up prices" .
You make very valid points, however I disagree that this strategy goes beyond shoving up prices. In my mind, and perhaps I'm the only one that sees this, but both 40k and WH have been increasingly dependent upon large models or large units. In fantasy, it is the era of the horde, MSU strategy is all but dead, and so, in the rules themselves, players are encouraged to simply buy more models. They are sacrificing game-play for profit. Maybe that's what a company thinks it needs to do, but if they sacrifice much more they will further degrade their customer base. In 40k, monsters/large models are becoming almost necessary. You hardly see a Tau list without a riptide or an Eldar list without a Wraith knight. Yeah those are the flavors of the recent months, but thats my point. Perhaps you see the fact that they disguise their price hikes as a 'different' business strategy, but to me it is hardly better than simply shoving up prices.
Well, quite frankly, as a public company they SHOULD be concerned about profit before gameplay. Further, GW has made it pretty well known that they're not concerned with a super tight rule set like infinity or warmahordes. Gameplay, as they intend it, is massive narrative battles. So the "horde era" should come as no surprise. And honestly, For your argument to hold true, one of the most competitive armies in 40k wouldn't also be one of the cheapest to assemble.
Honesty, all the talk Of "degrading the customer" is nonsense. They don't degrade anyone. They don't "mistreat" anyone. Like Az said, it's perfectly viable if you don't find their products to be a good value for you, but that doesn't mean you've been mistreated or abused, so quit waxing hyperbolic and acting like you are.
I think people confuse abuse with neglect. GW cares about their core demographic, the 12-16 year old males. Everything else they view as bonus sales, despite if those numbers might be higher or lower.
I do feel that GW writes rules to sell the models, and GW designers even admitted as much. The model is made before the rules. Even that is fine to an extent. I just feel that GW's method of releasing such things is poorly thought out.
You know what would have done well? Death from the Skies released with a single flier release for each army all at once. It would have been easy to balance, and gives EVERY 40k customer something to buy. Instead they do these random waves of models and then rules to go with them that are crazy OP so that you feel compelled to buy the model, and all that does is unbalance the game.
I do feel that GW could learn a thing from other companies in that respect. But if rules are only a marketing device, why do GW rules and books cost so damn much? At this point it costs an extra 50% to "start" an army by getting a battalion set. That used to be 20%.
GW is not perfect, but they are far from being so bad that I refuse their products and games.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
1. Stop buying GW product yourself. Pretty self explanatory
2. Take up a NEW wargame and introduce it to your local gaming group. If you can convince them to take up the game, it's like way #1, except now you've got more people on board.
Best advice of the thread. Stop buying, and do your best to get other people to join you with an alternative game. This may require taking ownership of your hobby and getting two forces to demo, putting on participation games and a variety of other effort that some will find not what they want for their hobby time. But it will create change.
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
1. Stop buying GW product yourself. Pretty self explanatory
2. Take up a NEW wargame and introduce it to your local gaming group. If you can convince them to take up the game, it's like way #1, except now you've got more people on board.
Best advice of the thread. Stop buying, and do your best to get other people to join you with an alternative game. This may require taking ownership of your hobby and getting two forces to demo, putting on participation games and a variety of other effort that some will find not what they want for their hobby time. But it will create change.
Well this is what is actually happening in my region. People are shifting from 40K to other games.
Adam's Motto: Paint, Create, Play, but above all, have fun. -and for something silly below-
"We are the Ultramodrines, And We Shall Fear No Trolls. bear this USR with pride".
Also, how does one apply to be a member of the Ultramodrines? Are harsh trials involved, ones that would test my faith as a wargamer and resolve as a geek?
You must recite every rule of Dakka Dakka. BACKWARDS.
And honestly, if you're in college you should only be concerned about the three Bs:
Books, beers, and boobs. Probably in that order.
Thanks for the new sig line!!
I wrote a letter to GW just after the last DA book came out about how disgusted I was with all the errors. Never got a paper responce. I only got a responce via email. I wish you luck and encourage you to send it.
<--Bolt on Cuteness: S:20,No armour save, no invul save, no cover save, Range:unlimited---DEAL
Enough too have fun
1. Stop buying GW product yourself. Pretty self explanatory
2. Take up a NEW wargame and introduce it to your local gaming group. If you can convince them to take up the game, it's like way #1, except now you've got more people on board.
Best advice of the thread. Stop buying, and do your best to get other people to join you with an alternative game. This may require taking ownership of your hobby and getting two forces to demo, putting on participation games and a variety of other effort that some will find not what they want for their hobby time. But it will create change.
Where do you play instead though? From my perspective I've always seen more GW shops than wargaming shops of any kind put together. I'd hate for them all to go bust.
I think the problem is people seem to think that breaking even, or slightly more, for a company is okay. It is not. GW are underperforming against average public companies, and when they try to make up for this through price increases somehow it's seen as a way to grub for money.
I think their RoE is something like 3-5% per share last time I checked, when it's trivial for me to go to a company on the market and get 10% returns at least.
Also, people saying other games are cheaper: Really? Infinity is hell expensive to even acquire every model in an army, and there is so much minor customisation that would require buying entirely new models to accomplish. Warmachine is pretty expensive. At least W40k's prevalence, even as an Aussie, I can pick up something like a box of termies for $30 delivered with all their options. Cryx warjacks go for roughly $20+ each, with the majority being $30-40. If I don't like a particular warjack for a strat then I have to pick up an entirely new one, whereas with Termies I could fiddle around with the options on each unit.
For Infinity, TAGs go for at least $50 and heavy infantry go for $10. Sure your army may only have 10 units, but that's going to come out to at least $300, and Infinity has barely anyway options available for units, so you'll end up deciding you want a different TAG, not to mention the prevalence of W40k also means that buying them 2nd hand is incredibly easy and cheap.
Even Kings of War which can go as low as $2-3 for units like Orcs can still be as much as Crons in a box of 12 with 3 scarabs at $25-30 ($3 or less each) depending where you are.
Yes, the tools are expensive but comeon, they have to design those with a limited marketbase in mind. Designing a pin vise on its own at least gives it general market coverage for jeweler's and the likes. Even if they sold those tools at a loss they still need to at least sell some kind of tools in store and have everything available a potential hobbyist needs.
You've really hit the truth of it there. Lowering prices at this point means there would be a delayed reaction from the market before there would be an increase in volume, assuming that the volume would rise to match and that the ceiling price has already been surpassed. I really don't think GW could get away with it in terms of liquidity.
Their 2012-2013 results should be out in the next month or two as well which will at least give a better insight into what's happened since their perceived market value tanked in the GFC with their share price.
tl;dr I'll collect what I enjoy. I enjoy W40k and Infinity rules very much, and may be going into warmahordes in the future. As for pricing GW can be incredibly cheap on a per-model basis, but the game sizes usually mean you need to buy a lot of them but this gives a lot more customisation even between armies that would feature the same units.
Where do you play instead though? From my perspective I've always seen more GW shops than wargaming shops of any kind put together. I'd hate for them all to go bust.
The current trend for GW shops is to reduce or eliminate the amount of actual gaming that goes on in them. So soon enough, you'll effectively have them gone as places to play anyway. Better get writing letters!
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
I think the problem is people seem to think that breaking even, or slightly more, for a company is okay. It is not. GW are underperforming against average public companies, and when they try to make up for this through price increases somehow it's seen as a way to grub for money.
I think their RoE is something like 3-5% per share last time I checked, when it's trivial for me to go to a company on the market and get 10% returns at least.
Underperforming? They are easily outperforming the market. Compare them to the FTSE 100 and they outperform it by a factor of three or so! We've discussed this before, their P/E isn't particularly good, which might conceivably indicate some investors don't believe they're future-proof. But however you skin it, share performance is good, or even very good. I wish my bloody old Plc pension was doing half as well.
RfE of 3-5% is indeed lousy. But last time I looked, GW was at around 30%, outperforming the leisure sector. Last time I looked, the consumer goods sector was at about 2%, and recreational goods around 1 per cent.
Whatever the doom, gloom and negativity here, market sentiment is that GW are actually doing pretty well, debt is minimal and they're outperforming the leisure sector easily.
Shaozun wrote: Also, people saying other games are cheaper: Really? Infinity is hell expensive to even acquire every model in an army, and there is so much minor customisation that would require buying entirely new models to accomplish. Warmachine is pretty expensive. At least W40k's prevalence, even as an Aussie, I can pick up something like a box of termies for $30 delivered with all their options. Cryx warjacks go for roughly $20+ each, with the majority being $30-40. If I don't like a particular warjack for a strat then I have to pick up an entirely new one, whereas with Termies I could fiddle around with the options on each unit.
For Infinity, TAGs go for at least $50 and heavy infantry go for $10. Sure your army may only have 10 units, but that's going to come out to at least $300, and Infinity has barely anyway options available for units, so you'll end up deciding you want a different TAG, not to mention the prevalence of W40k also means that buying them 2nd hand is incredibly easy and cheap.
True, but the scale of the games is also a factor. The TAG in Infinity is half to two-thirds of an "evenings gaming" size force, a Warmachine unit box will make up about a quarter of a 35pt army. Models being cheaper or about the same on a per-model basis doesn't save me any money if I need to buy twice as many of them in a certain system, and the rules of WHF especially have changed to heavily reward more dudes on the table.
Me, I just don't give GW any money, or play their games. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
Shaozun wrote: As for pricing GW can be incredibly cheap on a per-model basis, but the game sizes usually mean you need to buy a lot of them but this gives a lot more customisation even between armies that would feature the same units.
It not the customisation that the problem with GW. It the fact even with all the customisation, every game still feel the same, even battle rep read the same, I move, I shot, I assault, depaneding on army don't do one of above. Hell even the price wouldn't look so bad, if the models didn't just seem like the only reason to buy them is to roll more dice.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/07/18 14:45:07
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
If I don't like a particular warjack for a strat then I have to pick up an entirely new one, whereas with Termies I could fiddle around with the options on each unit.
If you ever do get into warmachine down the track, you'll find that unless you take a really, REALLY cornercase list, you would need at most 2 of each heavy chassis, and maybe 1 or 2 of some lights (unless you are going the collect-the-whole-faction thing, which is a perfectly ok choice). This is because the heavy chassis (chassi?) are all very easy to magnetise and swap around as you need effectively giving you three jacks for the price of one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/18 21:10:54
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
1. Stop buying GW product yourself. Pretty self explanatory
2. Take up a NEW wargame and introduce it to your local gaming group. If you can convince them to take up the game, it's like way #1, except now you've got more people on board.
Best advice of the thread. Stop buying, and do your best to get other people to join you with an alternative game. This may require taking ownership of your hobby and getting two forces to demo, putting on participation games and a variety of other effort that some will find not what they want for their hobby time. But it will create change.
Well this is what is actually happening in my region. People are shifting from 40K to other games.
In my play group it is more from Fantasy to Kings of War.
My girlfriend is retooling her list right now, she bought a nice unit of Brock Riders....
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
OK, I wrote about this on my blog, where I convincingly destroyed any pathetic attempt to justify the prices of GW. I am posting a link to the blog here;
In advance, let me apologize to whoever on this forum finds it offensive that I post a blog link. It seems easier than retyping everything.
In summary, I expose the facts regarding 2 very similar hobbies. One I used to dump all my money into, and one I currently dump all my money into. I will always have a special enjoyment of minis gaming. I have decided to stick with GW games. But it is getting harder and harder to find anyone to play. People do not just leave, they leave with a vengeance. GW is alienating people. I am no business person, and I am sure it all makes fiscal sense in a way. It seems like a bad idea from a purely gut instinct to me.
kenofyork wrote: OK, I wrote about this on my blog, where I convincingly destroyed any pathetic attempt to justify the prices of GW. I am posting a link to the blog here;
In advance, let me apologize to whoever on this forum finds it offensive that I post a blog link. It seems easier than retyping everything.
In summary, I expose the facts regarding 2 very similar hobbies. One I used to dump all my money into, and one I currently dump all my money into. I will always have a special enjoyment of minis gaming. I have decided to stick with GW games. But it is getting harder and harder to find anyone to play. People do not just leave, they leave with a vengeance. GW is alienating people. I am no business person, and I am sure it all makes fiscal sense in a way. It seems like a bad idea from a purely gut instinct to me.
great blog. I really love that post about how I can't see anything posted on it and that i need to log out of my account. Very compelling.
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
kenofyork wrote: . I am no business person, and I am sure it all makes fiscal sense in a way. It seems like a bad idea from a purely gut instinct to me.
Thanks for letting me know I have no reason to read your blog article.
In advance, let me apologize to whoever on this forum finds it offensive that I post a blog link. It seems easier than retyping everything.
Yes... I see your point, I mean it is not like we have a way to *Copy* and *Paste* text content easily. I mean we still have monks sitting in cloisters manually transcribing texts by hand. You had no other choice than linking your blog. Maybe you could have asked the secretary typing pool to re-type it for you...
Oh wait...
Don't waste the Forum's time by not participating in the thread and linking to some unreadable blog.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
In advance, let me apologize to whoever on this forum finds it offensive that I post a blog link. It seems easier than retyping everything.
Yes... I see your point, I mean it is not like we have a way to *Copy* and *Paste* text content easily. I mean we still have monks sitting in cloisters manually transcribing texts by hand. You had no other choice than linking your blog. Maybe you could have asked the secretary typing pool to re-type it for you...
Oh wait...
Don't waste the Forum's time by not participating in the thread and linking to some unreadable blog.
This. Copy paste it into the thread, because the site won't let me read it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/19 01:53:56
Shotgun wrote: I don't think I will ever understand the mentality of people that feel the need to record and post their butthurt on the interwebs.
Try that link instead. Ken of York of Proxie Models has been poking away at plastic injection molding in his garage (or rather barn) for several years now. His blog is worth reading, and while not a "business man" his observations are rather valid because it isnt like he is completely unaware of what goes into making a plastic model from start to finish.
Always nice to see the welcome mat rolled up so quickly though.
Slot cars can do all that? The only ones I've ever used were from when I was about 8 and we had a piece of plastic with a trigger to make the car accelerate.
Nicely written and all that too, but seriously, the cars/track can do all that?
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
Thank you Sean for correcting my link.. I was logged in as the blog owner when I copy/pasted. I always seem to make some sort of error when posting on Dakka. Which might be why I tend to read more and post less. This place is quite demanding.
Here's the full text for anyone that doesn't want to follow the link.
Spoiler:
Hello again folks, been pretty busy and there is a lot going on behind the scenes. Still making odds and ends, like this for the guys over at Rust Forge- http://rustforge.com/
I been slowly sliding in to a more manufacturing role and less a retailer, but I still am planning big as always. I added a 120mm base to the store. It was requested and was too big for the press. Had to add a precision 2x4 block to hold it closed.
I know my friend Chris is laughing, but it worked.
The sci-fi girls were ruined and so I had to remake the first half of the mold. When you run a lot of programs it is easy to over look a small mistake. I powered the cnc bit straight down through the cavity and ruined one of the gun arms. Oh well, be more observant. Back on track and designing the next one. No promises but I would like to be done soon.
What brings me on to my soapbox today is the culmination of some talks had recently with people and a few forums where people were talking about price increases over at the big monster, GW. It is somewhat counter intuitive for me to think that the company with the lowest cost per unit to make has the highest price per unit. If I were GW I would use my massive ability to produce products to lower prices and wipe out all the little guys. ( see Walmart) However, they have chosen to raise prices and thereby enable little guys to exist. Quite nice of them, one has to admit.
What follows I have stated a few times, so apologies if this post seems a re-post.
It seems that the cost is justified by the abilities of the model in the game. It ignores the fact that those abilities are the result of my own imagination, not value added by the company. I can choose to pretend the models are whatever I want and have whatever abilities I can think of. Which brings me to the comparison of my 2 main hobbies at the moment- slot cars and wargaming.
I started collecting High Elves in 1988, and have a gazillion. The painted ones shown in the battle report are a sample of what I still have to paint. I could see myself buying every high elf made till death overtakes me in some far distant era. (hopefully) I even have an entire army of West Wind high elves as well. Why? Because someday a stranger will approach me and challenge me to a 12,000 point battle with the requirement that all models be painted. And I must be ready to look that stranger in the eye and say, " Sure, grab your dice."
So that makes me a prime candidate for this new product from GW-
Ok, I hope those maniacs do not sue me for using an image- all rights reserved, blah blah, they thought of everything, blah blah, they invented human conflict, blah blah, etc.
So why have I not purchased said item? Because it costs more than this-
Now the elves can shoot bows and stuff, but I sort of have to do all the work. The manufacturer made a nice model and all, but it is the players that bring it to life with assembly and painting. And then use the rules to play a game. I make that blob of plastic an army and bring it to life. And I really enjoy that.
What can that stupid car do? Well, it is ready to go right out of the box. It has electric motor, rubber tires, metal axles. Lots of parts to make for a manufacturer. It also has working headlights and tail lights. Which I can turn off and on from my controller. And the brake lights come on when I release the throttle to slow down and go out after I stop or go back on the throttle. It comes in a nice display case with extra parts right along with it. And it has a computer in it.
Yes a computer. With that computer it is programmed to an individual controller with the push of a button to allow 8 cars to operate on a single lane with out interference. Neat? There are numerous crossing points that allow you to pass and block other drivers. My track is 2, 3 and 4 lanes wide in places.
Also, the computer reverses the motor polarity when the throttle is released and uses the electric motor to provide resistance and therefore brakes. And I can adjust the amount of braking. In 15 different increments to give me the amount of stopping I want.
I can also adjust the amount of power, if one car seems "bogus". A click of a button and instant balance. No more waiting 10 years for a codex. 15 different increments too.
And it also has a variable fuel capacity. What? Yes that's right, it keeps track of how much electricity I have been using and subtracts it from the fuel reserves of the car. But what do you have to do, gas it up? Yes, there is a section of track where you have to pull over and using your controller add fuel.
Ok, but what happens then. Well, the computer adjusts the power and braking of the car based on the weight of the fuel it is carrying. The car runs best when it is almost out of gas and is a little sluggish filled up.
Sounds strange so far, but what else?
With a click the car can be set to drive by itself, in case I got no one to race against. I can put 7 cars on the track and race against all of them if I want. This sucks because they keep wrecking in to each other, but it can be done.
The track has a USB connector that attaches to a PC. It manages all the cars and drivers and keeps a record of each lap ran, fastest, etc. It also can provide random events, like brake failure. This requires unscheduled pit stops. If your car loses brakes, the computer announces this over the speakers and will reduce your braking to nothing. I won a race against my daughters last night by refusing to stop and running the last few laps with no brakes.
Yes, I said it announces. It comes with a full spectrum of sounds to fill your ears with updates on who is winning, laps to go etc. Of course I edited this.
OK, I love me some high elves and wargaming. But I can not figure out how a couple of those sprues cost more than that 289 Cobra. The features on the car are all tangible items of value improvement. The elves got a decent initiative and good leadership. I know they have always strikes first, or at least they used to. And they have a BS of 4 or maybe 5. Been a while since I could afford a new codex. All of these are intangibles added inside my own head by reading the rules. It is hard to understand how the actual engineering put in to that beautiful car equals the value of a rule. A rule does not make a model more expensive to produce. This fact is where I get sideways and have that head exploding moment.
It has been a while since my finite disposable hobby income has been allocated to wargaming instead of race cars. I could not resist the Reaper kickstarter and really looking forward to some old fashioned dungeon mosh pits. Since then, nothing really for gaming but a couple new cars.
And that is my take on the whole endless argument on the Internet about the cost of GW products.
One final point. Wargaming is a niche market. But slot cars are a much smaller niche. I went to a slot car show in Maryland and it filled 2 smallish rooms in a hotel and was open from 10-2 on Sunday. I went to Cold Wars and it filled an entire convention center and lasted all weekend.
To summarize- I ain't buying no more high elves at these prices. So when that stranger does come looking for me, I will have to forfeit that battle.
Till then, going to keep painting and rolling dice as well as rubbing fenders on the track. Both are really great hobbies and a ton of fun. It is a good time to have such wonderful pastimes, and we are very lucky.
This post will vanish if I get a letter from one of the companies whose products are depicted. If that happens, which company do you think it will be? I know Carrera is an extraordinarily nice company to deal with. GW calls me a "bearded git". (Actual quote a store owner told me from a GW sales seminar. It was used to explain the type of customer to get out of your store ASAP. )
I got some more widgets to do and the other half of the mold to do. Still the progress keeps grinding forward and good things are happening. Have a great week and keep your fingers crossed I do not screw up again. And buy some widgets from rust forge- he never calls me a git.
EDIT- The price listed is not entirely accurate. It is possible to easily find the car shown at $42-48 online and my local shop sells the car for that price too. My local game store sells the minis at full retail. However, if you compare full retail to full retail the minis are a few bucks cheaper. $54-50. Not sure if that makes a difference, but wanted to give the most accurate numbers. To be honest I rarely pay full retail for anything anymore but was comparing the prices at my local shops.
That was hard.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/19 02:34:06
Hello again folks, been pretty busy and there is a lot going on behind the scenes. Still making odds and ends, like this for the guys over at Rust Forge- http://rustforge.com/
I been slowly sliding in to a more manufacturing role and less a retailer, but I still am planning big as always. I added a 120mm base to the store. It was requested and was too big for the press. Had to add a precision 2x4 block to hold it closed.
I know my friend Chris is laughing, but it worked.
The sci-fi girls were ruined and so I had to remake the first half of the mold. When you run a lot of programs it is easy to over look a small mistake. I powered the cnc bit straight down through the cavity and ruined one of the gun arms. Oh well, be more observant. Back on track and designing the next one. No promises but I would like to be done soon.
What brings me on to my soapbox today is the culmination of some talks had recently with people and a few forums where people were talking about price increases over at the big monster, GW. It is somewhat counter intuitive for me to think that the company with the lowest cost per unit to make has the highest price per unit. If I were GW I would use my massive ability to produce products to lower prices and wipe out all the little guys. ( see Walmart) However, they have chosen to raise prices and thereby enable little guys to exist. Quite nice of them, one has to admit.
What follows I have stated a few times, so apologies if this post seems a re-post.
It seems that the cost is justified by the abilities of the model in the game. It ignores the fact that those abilities are the result of my own imagination, not value added by the company. I can choose to pretend the models are whatever I want and have whatever abilities I can think of. Which brings me to the comparison of my 2 main hobbies at the moment- slot cars and wargaming.
I started collecting High Elves in 1988, and have a gazillion. The painted ones shown in the battle report are a sample of what I still have to paint. I could see myself buying every high elf made till death overtakes me in some far distant era. (hopefully) I even have an entire army of West Wind high elves as well. Why? Because someday a stranger will approach me and challenge me to a 12,000 point battle with the requirement that all models be painted. And I must be ready to look that stranger in the eye and say, " Sure, grab your dice."
So that makes me a prime candidate for this new product from GW-
Ok, I hope those maniacs do not sue me for using an image- all rights reserved, blah blah, they thought of everything, blah blah, they invented human conflict, blah blah, etc.
So why have I not purchased said item? Because it costs more than this-
Now the elves can shoot bows and stuff, but I sort of have to do all the work. The manufacturer made a nice model and all, but it is the players that bring it to life with assembly and painting. And then use the rules to play a game. I make that blob of plastic an army and bring it to life. And I really enjoy that.
What can that stupid car do? Well, it is ready to go right out of the box. It has electric motor, rubber tires, metal axles. Lots of parts to make for a manufacturer. It also has working headlights and tail lights. Which I can turn off and on from my controller. And the brake lights come on when I release the throttle to slow down and go out after I stop or go back on the throttle. It comes in a nice display case with extra parts right along with it. And it has a computer in it.
Yes a computer. With that computer it is programmed to an individual controller with the push of a button to allow 8 cars to operate on a single lane with out interference. Neat? There are numerous crossing points that allow you to pass and block other drivers. My track is 2, 3 and 4 lanes wide in places.
Also, the computer reverses the motor polarity when the throttle is released and uses the electric motor to provide resistance and therefore brakes. And I can adjust the amount of braking. In 15 different increments to give me the amount of stopping I want.
I can also adjust the amount of power, if one car seems "bogus". A click of a button and instant balance. No more waiting 10 years for a codex. 15 different increments too.
And it also has a variable fuel capacity. What? Yes that's right, it keeps track of how much electricity I have been using and subtracts it from the fuel reserves of the car. But what do you have to do, gas it up? Yes, there is a section of track where you have to pull over and using your controller add fuel.
Ok, but what happens then. Well, the computer adjusts the power and braking of the car based on the weight of the fuel it is carrying. The car runs best when it is almost out of gas and is a little sluggish filled up.
Sounds strange so far, but what else?
With a click the car can be set to drive by itself, in case I got no one to race against. I can put 7 cars on the track and race against all of them if I want. This sucks because they keep wrecking in to each other, but it can be done.
The track has a USB connector that attaches to a PC. It manages all the cars and drivers and keeps a record of each lap ran, fastest, etc. It also can provide random events, like brake failure. This requires unscheduled pit stops. If your car loses brakes, the computer announces this over the speakers and will reduce your braking to nothing. I won a race against my daughters last night by refusing to stop and running the last few laps with no brakes.
Yes, I said it announces. It comes with a full spectrum of sounds to fill your ears with updates on who is winning, laps to go etc. Of course I edited this.
OK, I love me some high elves and wargaming. But I can not figure out how a couple of those sprues cost more than that 289 Cobra. The features on the car are all tangible items of value improvement. The elves got a decent initiative and good leadership. I know they have always strikes first, or at least they used to. And they have a BS of 4 or maybe 5. Been a while since I could afford a new codex. All of these are intangibles added inside my own head by reading the rules. It is hard to understand how the actual engineering put in to that beautiful car equals the value of a rule. A rule does not make a model more expensive to produce. This fact is where I get sideways and have that head exploding moment.
It has been a while since my finite disposable hobby income has been allocated to wargaming instead of race cars. I could not resist the Reaper kickstarter and really looking forward to some old fashioned dungeon mosh pits. Since then, nothing really for gaming but a couple new cars.
And that is my take on the whole endless argument on the Internet about the cost of GW products.
One final point. Wargaming is a niche market. But slot cars are a much smaller niche. I went to a slot car show in Maryland and it filled 2 smallish rooms in a hotel and was open from 10-2 on Sunday. I went to Cold Wars and it filled an entire convention center and lasted all weekend.
To summarize- I ain't buying no more high elves at these prices. So when that stranger does come looking for me, I will have to forfeit that battle.
Till then, going to keep painting and rolling dice as well as rubbing fenders on the track. Both are really great hobbies and a ton of fun. It is a good time to have such wonderful pastimes, and we are very lucky.
This post will vanish if I get a letter from one of the companies whose products are depicted. If that happens, which company do you think it will be? I know Carrera is an extraordinarily nice company to deal with. GW calls me a "bearded git". (Actual quote a store owner told me from a GW sales seminar. It was used to explain the type of customer to get out of your store ASAP. )
I got some more widgets to do and the other half of the mold to do. Still the progress keeps grinding forward and good things are happening. Have a great week and keep your fingers crossed I do not screw up again. And buy some widgets from rust forge- he never calls me a git.
EDIT- The price listed is not entirely accurate. It is possible to easily find the car shown at $42-48 online and my local shop sells the car for that price too. My local game store sells the minis at full retail. However, if you compare full retail to full retail the minis are a few bucks cheaper. $54-50. Not sure if that makes a difference, but wanted to give the most accurate numbers. To be honest I rarely pay full retail for anything anymore but was comparing the prices at my local shops.
That was hard.
A working link is posted already.
Shotgun wrote: I don't think I will ever understand the mentality of people that feel the need to record and post their butthurt on the interwebs.
kenofyork wrote: Thank you Sean for correcting my link.. I was logged in as the blog owner when I copy/pasted. I always seem to make some sort of error when posting on Dakka. Which might be why I tend to read more and post less. This place is quite demanding.
Yes, wanting to read your post in the thread you posted in instead of having to reverse engineer a broken link to a blog is "demanding".
Next time just post in the thread like a forum poster and people might respond to what you wrote.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
Digital slot cars can do all of that. There is a split between old school analog racers and the new digital racers. Digital is catching on more and more.
The point seems to have been lost in this thread because of my error in posting. It was meant to initiate thinking about the relative cost of production of 2 similar hobby products and the retail price. 2 different companies making a bid for our free time and money. 2 different ways of selling value, and 2 different ways of perceiving value. For me, it has become impossible to justify the cost, although I will always play Warhammer and sometimes 40K. I will not buy anything new until the price becomes sane. I actually sold about $5000 worth of painted armies and used some of the money to buy my slot car collection.
Good luck with your letter, at least it will make you feel like you have done something.
-and for something silly below-
Enough too have fun
effectively giving you three jacks for the price of one.
