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Made in gb
Infiltrating Broodlord






kenofyork wrote:
Digital slot cars can do all of that. There is a split between old school analog racers and the new digital racers. Digital is catching on more and more.

The point seems to have been lost in this thread because of my error in posting.


Well... apples and oranges.

The 'computer chip" is a simple IC that is common across all the car models. It's the big improvement they've had in slot cars in the last two decades, but a simple chip common to all the cars isn't that big a deal.

Secondly, that little plastic model has relatively few parts. It's made in China, if it's Scalextric. And Scalextric ain't cheap by any means.

Thirdly, Hornby are (sadly) doing really badly, just announced a profit warning IIRC.

There are several other points - like your one about having to paint the model yourself - that are again completely irrelevant. Surely that's the point?

Finally, in the context of a Letter To Games Workshop, your post couldn't be more irrelevant. The letter is about GW doing a better job and, presumably, being more successfil as a company. You have picked, as an example to emulate, a company that have cheapened production by moving it all to China, have falling sales, and whose stock market performance is hugely inferior to GW.

In short, you've made GW look really successful. Nice one!



   
Made in gb
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 cincydooley wrote:
kenofyork wrote:
. I am no business person, and I am sure it all makes fiscal sense in a way. It seems like a bad idea from a purely gut instinct to me.



Thanks for letting me know I have no reason to read your blog article.


The snark knight returns! Can you type anything without looking down your nose at someone? The frankly stupid red herring of "You're only allowed to criticize something if you have vast experience in said area" is becoming old and tiresome.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Nimble Ellyrian Reaver



York, PA USA



The little plastic car has more parts than you think. More than the elves. It is made by Carrera, a German company. Last I heard GW has been trying to lower costs as well, including shipping production around. The OP was wanting GW to do a better job as a company, and the comparison is valid to another hobby company. Carrera is doing a fantastic job as a hobby company, perhaps not as much as a profit generating machine. I found the comparison valid. It is surprising that after reading the post the conclusion you reached is that GW is the successful party. GW is still doing well because the long term impact of alienating hard core hobbyists has not been felt. There is also the intangible of the sheer number of people who simply hate the company. Most of these were avid gamers and customers. I introduced my nephew to GW and the LOTR line. He is 13 now and is complaining that the boxes only have half the models they used to have. He is 13 and already is getting angry.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/19 11:07:57


 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

 Grimtuff wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:
kenofyork wrote:
. I am no business person, and I am sure it all makes fiscal sense in a way. It seems like a bad idea from a purely gut instinct to me.



Thanks for letting me know I have no reason to read your blog article.


The snark knight returns! Can you type anything without looking down your nose at someone? The frankly stupid red herring of "You're only allowed to criticize something if you have vast experience in said area" is becoming old and tiresome.


The snark knight?

I find it amusing that one of the rudest people on the board acts so offended so often, if you can't take it, don't dish it out.

Frankly, its an entirely valid point. If the plumber told you what was wrong with your drainage but your nurse wife disagreed, who would you most likely listen to?

Of course you are always entitled to your opinion, but you cant honestly expect people to take you seriously, otherwise why would anyone bother asking anyone for advice about anything?!


We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





staffordshire england

 mattyrm wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:
kenofyork wrote:
. I am no business person, and I am sure it all makes fiscal sense in a way. It seems like a bad idea from a purely gut instinct to me.



Thanks for letting me know I have no reason to read your blog article.


The snark knight returns! Can you type anything without looking down your nose at someone? The frankly stupid red herring of "You're only allowed to criticize something if you have vast experience in said area" is becoming old and tiresome.


The snark knight?

I find it amusing that one of the rudest people on the board acts so offended so often, if you can't take it, don't dish it out.

Frankly, its an entirely valid point. If the plumber told you what was wrong with your drainage but your nurse wife disagreed, who would you most likely listen to?

Of course you are always entitled to your opinion, but you cant honestly expect people to take you seriously, otherwise why would anyone bother asking anyone for advice about anything?!


Grimtuff has a point though, most of cincydooleys posts consist of putting people down, and rarely contribute in any meaningful way.



Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men.
Welcome to Fantasy 40k

If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.

Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

I don't see the issue, the warring factions give as good as they get, and the haters outnumber the pro GW crowd 3 to 1.

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in us
Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

Shaozun wrote:
Also, people saying other games are cheaper: Really? Infinity is hell expensive to even acquire every model in an army, and there is so much minor customisation that would require buying entirely new models to accomplish. Warmachine is pretty expensive. At least W40k's prevalence, even as an Aussie, I can pick up something like a box of termies for $30 delivered with all their options. Cryx warjacks go for roughly $20+ each, with the majority being $30-40. If I don't like a particular warjack for a strat then I have to pick up an entirely new one, whereas with Termies I could fiddle around with the options on each unit.


Where are you buying terminator models for 30 dollars with all of their options? And ALL of the heavy jacks and beasts in Warmachine come in a kit of their chassis and all the arms, heads, weapons and cards for the models that the chassis could be built as. All of my plastic jacks and beasts have been magnetized because I'm a cheap fether and I wanted to get 4 beasts out of 1 jack kit.. Granted I can't have multiples of that unit, but that's okay. I own enough Khador and Trollbloods stuff that it doesn't matter.

DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics 
   
Made in gb
Infiltrating Broodlord






kenofyork wrote:


The little plastic car has more parts than you think. More than the elves. It is made by Carrera, a German company. Last I heard GW has been trying to lower costs as well, including shipping production around.




Carrera are a good company. We have a couple of their cars, and while they're not the changeable lanes versions, they're hardly way more complicated than a box of figures. But despite the fact they're a German company, the cars are indeed made in China. They cost £29.99. A pack of High Elves spearmen cost £20.

And sorry if this sounds personal, but when it comes to slagging off GW, there are always phrases like "Last I hear GW had been trying to lower costs as well, including shipping production around. " What does that mean? Is that supposed to be evidence?

GW still produce their plastics in the UK, the link I cited earlier demonstrates on firsthand evidence that they are recruiting new design staff and buying new presses etc. So, while i by no means suggest that GW are altruists, much of the hearsay used to slag them off here is just that, it's self-selecting and meaningless.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/19 14:11:41


   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

 loki old fart wrote:

]

Grimtuff has a point though, most of cincydooleys posts consist of putting people down, and rarely contribute in any meaningful way.


I'm sarcastic a ton, but that simply isn't true. I've contributed in "meaningful" ways a number of times in this thread. I can't help if if you chose to disregard all of those.

 
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





staffordshire england

 cincydooley wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:

]

Grimtuff has a point though, most of cincydooleys posts consist of putting people down, and rarely contribute in any meaningful way.


I'm sarcastic a ton, but that simply isn't true. I've contributed in "meaningful" ways a number of times in this thread. I can't help if if you chose to disregard all of those.


The word was rarely
The way you jumped on a relatively new poster(46 posts), because of a posting mishap. Was uncalled for.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/19 13:09:53




Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men.
Welcome to Fantasy 40k

If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.

Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
 
   
Made in nl
Raging Rat Ogre






My two cents on this.
I think the first problem is that GW has gotten TOO Big. I work in a toystore and we have to work with less people in the store because the more staff the more people to pay salaries to.

GW makes great miniatures and modelkits, but this are products only interesting for a selected group of people ergo wargamers and model builders/miniature painters.
I know making models is expensive and unlike the companies that make model planes for example you cant just buy molds from other companies because you are dealing with models designed primarly for the games you sell.
I have build a lot of airplanes before I got into miniatures I know companies that use the same molds but one uses slightly cheaper plastics and sells the same model slightly cheaper.
The biggest differance here is the decals for the plane and the cheaper ones require a bit more work. No biggie. GW cant realy do this because than you become just another plastic soldier company.

I have No doubt that they know this. They know that other companies produce quality games and miniatures and that the competition has only increased and now 3d printing is rising up towards the hobby.
They are a company originaly founded by geeks for geeks Sure they had humor and hart in their old days. But the bigger market made then more fearfull of losing thier position.

Some of thier founding members left and started Blizzard software (The whole Blizzard ripping of GW and vice versa is pointless they where started by the same people. I am also certain I saw they name of an ex-GW guy in the Borderlands 2 credits and that was by Gearbox.)
They have to make a profit to support themselfs of course but they need to make so much money because they became so big they just follow the whole get the money as fast as we can because we need to make money we are a bussiness.

The people making the decisions are no longer the geeks but are now grown business men. Which is fine but they got a company that costs a lot of money to maintain and probably would do better if they looked around a bit more than just like us geek sticking to our old ways. Geeks make bad bussiness men most of the time. And they are a big business in a market which is not quite fitting the big business profiles.

The other part is the Internet
I have spent a great deal on the internet and 4chan's /tg/ and allot the pro and anti GW remind me all to much of the console wars a couple of years back only with less racial slur.
People a lot of times really just need something to bitch about and since the internet provides the safety of the keyboard and screen they don't feel the need to hold back and will offen let thier emotions take the better over reason.

I think it is a good idea that you sent those letters even if I fear they will probably be ignored. If one person reads it and stops to think about issues it word it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/19 13:32:43


A hemophobic Khorne berzerker, a germophobic plague marine and a sexy Skaven walk in to a Games workshop.....
-------------------------------------------
We mark the lands with blood, in fire we prevail.
We are tremendous. We are the end of days.
-------------------------------------------
It ain't appropriate for anybody, baby. That's the siren call!
 
   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

 loki old fart wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:

]

Grimtuff has a point though, most of cincydooleys posts consist of putting people down, and rarely contribute in any meaningful way.


I'm sarcastic a ton, but that simply isn't true. I've contributed in "meaningful" ways a number of times in this thread. I can't help if if you chose to disregard all of those.


The word was rarely
The way you jumped on a relatively new poster(46 posts), because of a posting mishap. Was uncalled for.


I'm sorry. That "relatively new poster" maintains a blog and a web store. He can figure out how to copy/paste the full text of an article into a forum. It really isn't hard.

And again, your use of rarely is misplaced. I won't deny that I can be sarcastic and condescending (which has gotten me justifyably suspended) but most of my posts have plenty of content to them.

@korbenn - a lot of good points. I think GW catches a lot of flak because of the demographic they cater to. There's a lot of expectation in the demo (for good or bad) and that demo expects to, effectively, "be a part" of the business. You see a ton of ownership in any geek related hobby, which is often a great thing for the number of very small, private entities that exist within it. But therein also lies the problem: GW isn't really like any of those other entities because A: they're significantly larger, and B: they're a public company. Despite what we'd all prefer, the GW management team is beholden to their shareholders first and foremost and to us, as a customer base, second.

It's that reason why we see a lot of discord between what we, as that customer base, understand to be "good" decisions. Decisions that are good for us aren't always the right business decision to show those big black numbers to the shareholders. While most people here seem to understand that fact, far fewer are willing to accept that fact.

 
   
Made in ca
Posts with Authority




I'm from the future. The future of space

The main issue is that the demographic that thinks GW is catering to them is actually wrong and the demographic GW is actually catering to is a completely different one.

So many people get exasperated with GW doing things that make no sense given what they think GW's target market is. The issue though, is that they've got GW's target market wrong.

If anyone feels GW is letting them down, it's likely because GW has fired them as a customer and now considers their purchases entirely as bonus revenue from outside their target market. If GW isn't doing anything to cater to the desires of a particular group, it's probably because GW doesn't think they are worth the effort and expense.

Write letters all you want, but in doing so you are simply proving that you are not who GW cares about selling product to. They'll take your money if you're willing to keep buying long after they've expected you to quit, but they're not going to do a damn thing to address your grievances.

Even if the letter you write gets passed up to board of directors and they read it, they'll probably just pat themselves on the back for creating such passionate customers that they care well past being in the original target age group GW is going after. They must be doing something right if adults are still sticking around long enough to get annoyed at the actions of a toy company.

Angry letters are great news!

Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. 
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos






Lake Forest, California, South Orange County

GW would be hard pressed to find teenagers who plop down $500 a year consistently. Many of those kids are one time players who drop out after a year or two. Meanwhile, veterans like myself spend that amount year after year on product, but don't get the support we feel we should.

How does it make sense to market to kids who require their parents to spend money instead of marketing to me and people like me who have thousands(not trying to brag) of dollars a year for their entertainment and hobby funds?

I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but when a single customer has the potential to offset 3 or 4 others, wouldn't you want to focus on making the sure thing veteran happy instead of trying to "sell" new kids on it? I already buy their product, they should focus on getting MORE of my money instead of hedging their bets on convincing new players to start(given who those new players are).

"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
 
   
Made in gb
Infiltrating Broodlord






 Aerethan wrote:
GW would be hard pressed to find teenagers who plop down $500 a year consistently. Many of those kids are one time players who drop out after a year or two. Meanwhile, veterans like myself spend that amount year after year on product, but don't get the support we feel we should.

How does it make sense to market to kids who require their parents to spend money instead of marketing to me and people like me who have thousands(not trying to brag) of dollars a year for their entertainment and hobby funds?

I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but when a single customer has the potential to offset 3 or 4 others, wouldn't you want to focus on making the sure thing veteran happy instead of trying to "sell" new kids on it? I already buy their product, they should focus on getting MORE of my money instead of hedging their bets on convincing new players to start(given who those new players are).


Teenagers have parents, grannies, aunties, and birthday parties every year. By the time they're 13 or 14 - when they're in GW - they are getting considerable amounts of cash for presents. You don't need many relatives spending $30 a pop to get you to $400 a year, and the parents will normally make up the extra $100 in paint and one-offs to bank GW $500 per year. And it normally takes parents a year to wise up and start buying online so GW are getting all the cake. It's a real peer-group thing, I reckon 50% of them at least continue for a couple of years. remember, there are a lot of kids out there. Out of my nipper's 60-strong school year, there are around 35 boys, one plays nids, one SM, one IG, one CSM, and all have been collecting (with a break for 6E) for well over two years.

Let's round the percentage of players down from 11 to 6 per cent, reduce the typical spend to £160 a year, factor in the population of around 1.5m boys aged 11-13, and you get revenues of £14m a year. That's probably 90% of GW's UK revenues. Could be more - a sample size of 60 isn't that small, and it's from a mixed London demographic.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/19 18:53:52


   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

 Aerethan wrote:
GW would be hard pressed to find teenagers who plop down $500 a year consistently. Many of those kids are one time players who drop out after a year or two. Meanwhile, veterans like myself spend that amount year after year on product, but don't get the support we feel we should.

How does it make sense to market to kids who require their parents to spend money instead of marketing to me and people like me who have thousands(not trying to brag) of dollars a year for their entertainment and hobby funds?

I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but when a single customer has the potential to offset 3 or 4 others, wouldn't you want to focus on making the sure thing veteran happy instead of trying to "sell" new kids on it? I already buy their product, they should focus on getting MORE of my money instead of hedging their bets on convincing new players to start(given who those new players are).


Simply put, 15 teenagers getting the DV boxed set as a gift every year is valuable than the $500 you spend by yourself.

And they're less maintenance.

Sadly, in business and bottom lines, sometimes it's about quantity and not quality.

Especially for public ones.

 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 cincydooley wrote:
 Aerethan wrote:
GW would be hard pressed to find teenagers who plop down $500 a year consistently. Many of those kids are one time players who drop out after a year or two. Meanwhile, veterans like myself spend that amount year after year on product, but don't get the support we feel we should.

How does it make sense to market to kids who require their parents to spend money instead of marketing to me and people like me who have thousands(not trying to brag) of dollars a year for their entertainment and hobby funds?

I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but when a single customer has the potential to offset 3 or 4 others, wouldn't you want to focus on making the sure thing veteran happy instead of trying to "sell" new kids on it? I already buy their product, they should focus on getting MORE of my money instead of hedging their bets on convincing new players to start(given who those new players are).


Simply put, 15 teenagers getting the DV boxed set as a gift every year is valuable than the $500 you spend by yourself.

And they're less maintenance.

Sadly, in business and bottom lines, sometimes it's about quantity and not quality.

Especially for public ones.


But to neglect such a significant potential market is just pants on head time again. Even estimating the veteran market at what I would consider a very modest 10% of their overall income (remember any income from Forge World is, I would assume, almost entirely going to be derived from veterans) that's a very significant number.

Factor in that GW, via the CHS case, are on public record, under oath (I assume?) as relying on word of mouth from their customers via forums such as this (and the lions share of regular posters seem to have left their teens behind some time ago) one has to ask what the hell they're thinking?

I don't disagree that Vets are not their main focus, but to act like they're not important at all? It just defies any analysis I can conduct with the information, knowledge and experience I have to hand.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

Oh, I didn't say it wasn't important. But it's a lot easier to get 20 people to spend $50 than one person to spend $1000.

KS shows this dynamic pretty well.

Lets look at two $250K grossing campaigns

Dungeon roll pulled it in with over 10,000 backers at a $15 price point.

Heroes of Normandie pulled it in with just under 1000 backers at a $150 price point.

Now lets say they both come out with a $10 expansion. If you retain half or your customers, the second purchases look like this:

Dungeon Roll = $50,000 from the expansion
Heroes of Normandie = $5000 from the expansion

That's the difference.

And like I said, never underestimate the value of a low maintenance customer, of which we are not.

 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 cincydooley wrote:
Oh, I didn't say it wasn't important. But it's a lot easier to get 20 people to spend $50 than one person to spend $1000.

KS shows this dynamic pretty well.

Lets look at two $250K grossing campaigns

Dungeon roll pulled it in with over 10,000 backers at a $15 price point.

Heroes of Normandie pulled it in with just under 1000 backers at a $150 price point.

Now lets say they both come out with a $10 expansion. If you retain half or your customers, the second purchases look like this:

Dungeon Roll = $50,000 from the expansion
Heroes of Normandie = $5000 from the expansion

That's the difference.

And like I said, never underestimate the value of a low maintenance customer, of which we are not.


None of that takes into account that GWs model is predicated on keeping their vets happy because we are (allegedly) their chief method of advertising. If Vets are high maintenance, then GW have, at some point, decided that this cost is worth tolerating in order to derive the benefits from having them around.

Subsequent to making that decision, they have, almost wilfully if you want to pop your tinfoil hat on, neglected that part of their market.

If it emerges, in years to come, that there has been a rift in GW senior management for the last few years in regard to how best to move forward, I wouldn't be surprised, as it almost seems like there are two separate, opposed agendas in operation here.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos






Lake Forest, California, South Orange County

 cincydooley wrote:
Oh, I didn't say it wasn't important. But it's a lot easier to get 20 people to spend $50 than one person to spend $1000.

KS shows this dynamic pretty well.

Lets look at two $250K grossing campaigns

Dungeon roll pulled it in with over 10,000 backers at a $15 price point.

Heroes of Normandie pulled it in with just under 1000 backers at a $150 price point.

Now lets say they both come out with a $10 expansion. If you retain half or your customers, the second purchases look like this:

Dungeon Roll = $50,000 from the expansion
Heroes of Normandie = $5000 from the expansion

That's the difference.

And like I said, never underestimate the value of a low maintenance customer, of which we are not.



And that math is well and fine(and makes complete sense) but I'd argue that GW doesn't retain 50% of the kids that start up one of their games. Maybe they do, but I've forgotten more faces than I remember ever playing locally.

Also in your argument you looked at 2 VERY different products and markets. GW doesn't have much in the $15 market that is useful towards a full game. Pretty much characters and single models only. So that is fine if Inquisitor 28mm is taking off.

But GW's standard army cost is $400-650USD. That puts them in a very different market than say MTG whose main products are under $5ea. Of course it's easy to sell a lot of cheap things, but GW is far from cheap in every aspect. Their core demographic has VERY limited and inconsistent funds to spend. There are well more than enough older working geeks like myself out there with money to spend, and GW just doesn't do that good of a job getting it from us.

"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
 
   
Made in gb
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot





Devon

 azreal13 wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:
 Aerethan wrote:
GW would be hard pressed to find teenagers who plop down $500 a year consistently. Many of those kids are one time players who drop out after a year or two. Meanwhile, veterans like myself spend that amount year after year on product, but don't get the support we feel we should.

How does it make sense to market to kids who require their parents to spend money instead of marketing to me and people like me who have thousands(not trying to brag) of dollars a year for their entertainment and hobby funds?

I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but when a single customer has the potential to offset 3 or 4 others, wouldn't you want to focus on making the sure thing veteran happy instead of trying to "sell" new kids on it? I already buy their product, they should focus on getting MORE of my money instead of hedging their bets on convincing new players to start(given who those new players are).


Simply put, 15 teenagers getting the DV boxed set as a gift every year is valuable than the $500 you spend by yourself.

And they're less maintenance.

Sadly, in business and bottom lines, sometimes it's about quantity and not quality.

Especially for public ones.


But to neglect such a significant potential market is just pants on head time again. Even estimating the veteran market at what I would consider a very modest 10% of their overall income (remember any income from Forge World is, I would assume, almost entirely going to be derived from veterans) that's a very significant number.

Factor in that GW, via the CHS case, are on public record, under oath (I assume?) as relying on word of mouth from their customers via forums such as this (and the lions share of regular posters seem to have left their teens behind some time ago) one has to ask what the hell they're thinking?

I don't disagree that Vets are not their main focus, but to act like they're not important at all? It just defies any analysis I can conduct with the information, knowledge and experience I have to hand.


Exactly my point of view, I know I'm not GWs target customer anymore but just because I'm not it doesn't mean that GW have got their target market right. They should IMHO pitch a little higher than they are currently so as to have more appeal. If they really do rely on word of mouth then surely they must realise that the word on the street ain't good? Just cos my grannies and auntie don't spend £500 a year on my behalf I reckon I equal that myself on gamesday years as well as my girlfriend and friends getting me models for birthday and Xmas etc. I am not a business person but I always thought that ok a big slice of cake right now is really nice but what about a smaller slice every day for the next year? Which is better? What happens when the cake becomes too expensive and Mummy and Daddy won't buy Jonny any more? Well they'll be looking for the old men with the sweet tooth then but will there be any around when they go looking?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/340090.page - my Heresy era Blood Angels

BA 1500pts and counting
He 1500pts unpainted
Corbulo is practicaly Jesus with a chainsword  
   
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I'm from the future. The future of space

It certainly would be better for GW if they could figure out a way to both keep long term customers who spend year over year and also go after new customers as well. I don't necessarily agree that GW is being smart by going after new customers and hoping to get as much money as possible before they quit is a good approach-- certainly not in the long term.

But so what? This thread is about giving feedback to GW in the form of letters. And it's very likely that anyone who writes a letter expressing grievances is already demographically not GW's target market. You've already given GW way more money than GW ever expected out of you given that you stuck around into adulthood.

An angry letter from an adult to GW is just proof that their customer base is passionate enough to stick around well past the age GW expects. GW simply isn't interested in spending any additional time or money on your concerns given that they already got your money.

It doesn't matter that you or I may think this approach is short sighted. It's the one GW has chosen and in terms of getting as much money as possible into the guy in charge's pockets, it's working. There's simply no reason for Kirby to change directions when his approach has already made him super rich.

Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. 
   
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Cincinnati, Ohio

 azreal13 wrote:

None of that takes into account that GWs model is predicated on keeping their vets happy because we are (allegedly) their chief method of advertising. If Vets are high maintenance, then GW have, at some point, decided that this cost is worth tolerating in order to derive the benefits from having them around.

Subsequent to making that decision, they have, almost wilfully if you want to pop your tinfoil hat on, neglected that part of their market.

If it emerges, in years to come, that there has been a rift in GW senior management for the last few years in regard to how best to move forward, I wouldn't be surprised, as it almost seems like there are two separate, opposed agendas in operation here.


I don't disagree with that at all, but I guess you have to consider that there are plenty of vets that don't look at GW "treating" them any way and rather look at GW from a much colder standpoint as a company trying to sell them something. I'd put myself in that category. As their prices have gone up, I've not gotten as much, but when they release something cool, I buy it if the price is one I'm willing to pay. If its not, well, that's more money to go spend on ammo, or kayak supplies, or books, or any of the other things I like to do.

Not only that but there are still plenty of areas where GW games are still the main game. We dabble in all sorts of gak here in Cincy. I've got armies for more skirmish games than I'd care to admit (seriously, who has two partially painted Alkemy armies... But at the end of the day, those skirmish games eventually phase out and we end up back at 40k. X-Wing has a pretty solid following right now, and Warmahordes has done decently for the past 4 years (although if the community consisted of less douchenozzles, it would be doing better). I'd be very surprised if that wasn't the case in other areas too.

I completely agree with you on the rift between senior management. That wouldn't surprise me at all, because it's very clear their senior design team really do care about the community, and creativity, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Aerethan wrote:


And that math is well and fine(and makes complete sense) but I'd argue that GW doesn't retain 50% of the kids that start up one of their games. Maybe they do, but I've forgotten more faces than I remember ever playing locally.

Also in your argument you looked at 2 VERY different products and markets. GW doesn't have much in the $15 market that is useful towards a full game. Pretty much characters and single models only. So that is fine if Inquisitor 28mm is taking off.

But GW's standard army cost is $400-650USD. That puts them in a very different market than say MTG whose main products are under $5ea. Of course it's easy to sell a lot of cheap things, but GW is far from cheap in every aspect. Their core demographic has VERY limited and inconsistent funds to spend. There are well more than enough older working geeks like myself out there with money to spend, and GW just doesn't do that good of a job getting it from us.


No, you're totally right. They're really not apples and apples products, but I just did a quick search of gak that I either backed or followed to find two that funded at similar levels. I would also agree that the 50% number is high, but it was a complete hypothetical. The disparity in projected income is similar even if you decrease those numbers.

As to getting the $$ from the older geeks with jobs. They seem to sell out of all their Limited Edition products. The $250 Inquisitor Box Apocalypse sold out pretty quickly. I'd have loved one, but I wasn't willing to pay that much for it. Simple (see Az, I'm not a total tinfoil hat wearer ) But I agree that 40k/GW isn't akin to MtG. But you have to remember, parents now are used to video games and gak that cost anywhere from $40-$70 bucks. And has TONS of products in those pricepoints.

Not only that, but I know a ton of parents that would be more than happy to drop $50 on a model like this that fostered some creativity instead of a video game. If GW could figure out a way to make Warhammer and outdoors game as well, they'd really hit a gold mine with that parental demographic.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/19 19:49:21


 
   
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 cincydooley wrote:
If GW could figure out a way to make Warhammer and outdoors game as well, they'd really hit a gold mine with that parental demographic.


Picnic tables and tiki torches! We've had to call a few games due to low light conditions.
   
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Lake Forest, California, South Orange County

And GW selling out those LE items should be an indicator that VETERANS are a major player in their market, as kids aren't plopping $250 for a fancy rulebook bundle.

"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
 
   
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I'm from the future. The future of space

Forge World is another venue that shows GW has products to be purchased for the adult hobbyist. GW probably already thinks they're doing everything they need to do in order to grab this extra adult money.

Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. 
   
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Norn Queen






Shaozun wrote:
Also, people saying other games are cheaper: Really? Infinity is hell expensive to even acquire every model in an army, and there is so much minor customisation that would require buying entirely new models to accomplish. Warmachine is pretty expensive. At least W40k's prevalence, even as an Aussie, I can pick up something like a box of termies for $30 delivered with all their options. Cryx warjacks go for roughly $20+ each, with the majority being $30-40. If I don't like a particular warjack for a strat then I have to pick up an entirely new one, whereas with Termies I could fiddle around with the options on each unit.

For Infinity, TAGs go for at least $50 and heavy infantry go for $10. Sure your army may only have 10 units, but that's going to come out to at least $300, and Infinity has barely anyway options available for units, so you'll end up deciding you want a different TAG, not to mention the prevalence of W40k also means that buying them 2nd hand is incredibly easy and cheap.


Just like I don't have to buy 1 of every single Tyranid unit in the book, I also don't have to buy one of every Haqqislam blister for my Infinity army. Coupled with Corvus Belli's quite exceptional balancing that doesn't push new units or have any sort of power creep, Infinity is dirt fething cheap.

You can buy a single 300pt army, consisting of 10 models, and as long as there's a hacker and a Forward Observer or Engineer in there (simply for Objective games), you won't have to buy another model ever again, and you'll remain competitive. I can't say nearly the same thing about 40k, at all, in any capacity.

You make a valid point about TAGs being expensive - however, unlike GW who try to give their big, expensive kits stats you really want, Corvus Belli balance TAGs the same way as anything else. If you don't want to bring one, then you're not going to be any less competitve. You also don't need special weapons to kill a TAG. Line Infantry with a Rifle and a bit of luck can scrap one in one turn. TAGs tend to actually not be run often - they require building a list around supporting them, so unless you want to do that, you're better off leaving it on the shelf anyway.

Really, you're comments on Infinity look like they stem from a real lack of experience with the game.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/20 10:32:50


 
   
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I'm from the future. The future of space

Those experiences mirror my own with Infinity. I think I might own 14 Pan-O models and have found newer releases aren't any stronger or weaker than old ones.

Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. 
   
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Because of this thread I have hooked somebody on Infinity....

Best way to get the notice of GW is enough people buying other companies' games, and not GW.

Infinity... is not my game of choice, but it is fun.

And I like many of the models for SF RPGs.

The Auld Grump

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
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 korbenn wrote:

Some of thier founding members left and started Blizzard software (The whole Blizzard ripping of GW and vice versa is pointless they where started by the same people. I am also certain I saw they name of an ex-GW guy in the Borderlands 2 credits and that was by Gearbox.)


Pretty sure that is completely incorrect.

GW Wikipedia entry wrote:Founded in 1975 at 15 Bolingbroke Road, London, by John Peake, Ian Livingstone, and Steve Jackson (not to be confused with US citizen Steve Jackson, also a games designer), Games Workshop was originally ...

Blizzard Entertainment Wikipedia entry wrote:Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. is an American video game developer and publisher founded on February 8, 1991 under the name Silicon & Synapse by three graduates of UCLA,[3] Michael Morhaime, Allen Adham and Frank Pearce and is currently ...


I swear I saw you post that in another thread too.

Not really trying to pick on you, just had to look it up myself to see if it were true.

GrimTuff wrote:The snark knight returns!


True or not, that made me laugh.

OP: Write the letter. Honestly, what could it hurt? Also, physical letters tend to be given a great deal more attention than e-mails, so good call there.

~Eric

   
 
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