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Hi, it's the Doctor here, with another round of questions concerning Chaos Space Marines:
So, I've been noticing a lot of CSM lists here on Dakka where the HQ choice is almost universally a Chaos Lord in Power Armor. Is this because a Terminator Lord just isn't worth it? What are some of the advantages/disadvantages to having a Terminator Lord? How would you use him? Can he be somewhat competitive?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To put things into perspective, I plan on building a footslogger Undivided list, and I wonder if it wouldn't be better to have a Vanilla Lord instead of a Termi one.

The only reasons to go with power armor are the following
* Your putting him on a bike
* Your putting him in a rhino

For any other time, you want to give your lord terminator armor. The 2+ save is critical to ensure that ICs like Mephiston go from 'taking your lunch money' to 'becoming your lords whipping boy'.

Point for point its one of the cheapest, most efficient upgrades you can buy.

 labmouse42 wrote:
The only reasons to go with power armor are the following
* Your putting him on a bike
* Your putting him in a rhino

For any other time, you want to give your lord terminator armor. The 2+ save is critical to ensure that ICs like Mephiston go from 'taking your lunch money' to 'becoming your lords whipping boy'.

Point for point its one of the cheapest, most efficient upgrades you can buy.

You're forgetting the famous Juggerlord, the extra wound, toughness, and attack is a very sweet deal, especially when you get a cavalry move out of it too.

 labmouse42 wrote:
The only reasons to go with power armor are the following
* Your putting him on a bike
* Your putting him in a rhino

For any other time, you want to give your lord terminator armor. The 2+ save is critical to ensure that ICs like Mephiston go from 'taking your lunch money' to 'becoming your lords whipping boy'.

Point for point its one of the cheapest, most efficient upgrades you can buy.

I agree. Considering that taking a Lord without an AP3 weapon (at least) is (IMHO) senseless, it's like if it was just a 25 points upgrade (with terminator lord imho you should stick to power weapons, otherwise it becomes too much costly).
Now you get a combi-boltgun (which is better than nothing), a 2+ save and a 5+ inv save for 25pts. If you consider that an aura of chaos glory is 15pts alone you understand that is a very cost-effective upgrade. You also gain the deep strike USR (if you need it).

Of course it depends on what you want to do.. if you want a bike or just a cheap way to unlock cultist troops then it would be better a power armour lord...
In all other situations I'd go with the terminator

Does a terminator lord usually need a land raider to be effective?

No. You can just toss him into a blob and walk him up the mid-field. Don't think of the lord as a beatstick (though he is), instead think of him as a counter-assault unit. His job is to stay near your troops and shout "Get off my lawn!" if another unit gets near and threatens you. Abbadon is really best for this role.

One of my favorite CSM builds was to run 3 blobs of CSM. Fabius Bile would sit in one, making it fearless. His ability would make blob 2 fearless, and my lord would make blob 3 fearless.
Add 18 terminators and you have yourself a cheap, solid army that will be extremely hard to shift.

Here is how I would run it at 1850. You could play around with it as desired. Your throwing 80 bodies on the board, and its as tough to shift as 100 marines.
265 - Abbadon
165 - Fabius Bile
270 - 20 CSM w/2 MGs
270 - 20 CSM w/2 MGs
270 - 20 CSM 2/Flamer
9 Termiantors
9 Termiantors

There is another major disadvantage to Termie armour - particularly with Lords with mental weapons, like the Axe of Blinding Fury or Black Mace. No sweeping advance. Not just him, but the rest of his unit as well.
So giving Termie armour to, say, a Khorne Lord with a unit of Berzerkers is basically gambling with killpoints...

 Super Ready wrote:
There is another major disadvantage to Termie armour - particularly with Lords with mental weapons, like the Axe of Blinding Fury or Black Mace. No sweeping advance. Not just him, but the rest of his unit as well..

Where do you see that the unit also cannot sweeping advance?

I'm looking at my rulebook on page 26 and 27 and there is no mention of the lack of sweeping advance passing onto the unit. In the CSM codex there is no mention on page 68 describing terminator armor.

Is there a FAQ saying that is the case?

I shall have to check the Codex when I get back from work. Loyalist Termies certainly can't, but I may be jumping the gun assuming that to be the case for Chaos as well.

Thanks. I miss stuff like that all the time, and I want to know if I've been playing it wrong.

There have been lots of times Abbadon has spanked the heck out of a unit and the only reason they stuck around was because the CSM with him caught the marines in the sweeping advance.

Are you not allowed to take a steed with terminator armor? I read the codex a few times but I was unclear on that.

I always have Huron as my main warlord and then either a Terminator Lord or a JuggerLord.

 gpfunk wrote:
Are you not allowed to take a steed with terminator armor? I read the codex a few times but I was unclear on that.

I always have Huron as my main warlord and then either a Terminator Lord or a JuggerLord.

I've never seen a list with a terminator armored juggerlord.

Can't do steed and termi armor, it's at the bottom of the wargear chart.

I like Termi armor more on a Sorcerer since they are less likely to be in assault, the 2+/5++ is usually enough protection.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Thanks. I miss stuff like that all the time, and I want to know if I've been playing it wrong.

There have been lots of times Abbadon has spanked the heck out of a unit and the only reason they stuck around was because the CSM with him caught the marines in the sweeping advance.

Page 27 left column 4th full paragraph
"some troops , as detailed in their special rules, are not permitted to make sweeping advances - when a victorious unit contains one or more models that are not able to make a sweeping advance, the enemy always manage to disengage safely - there is no need to roll"

so sadly no a mixed unit can not make a sweeping advance

Thanks for finding that.
So you need 2 units to ensure the sweeping advance. Not one.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:
Hi, it's the Doctor here, with another round of questions concerning Chaos Space Marines:
So, I've been noticing a lot of CSM lists here on Dakka where the HQ choice is almost universally a Chaos Lord in Power Armor. Is this because a Terminator Lord just isn't worth it? What are some of the advantages/disadvantages to having a Terminator Lord? How would you use him? Can he be somewhat competitive?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
To put things into perspective, I plan on building a footslogger Undivided list, and I wonder if it wouldn't be better to have a Vanilla Lord instead of a Termi one.

Terminator armor is a great deal, you get 2+, 5++ and a power weapon for 40 points. If the power weapon is 15 points and the 5++ is 15 points you get artificer armor for only 10 points. You also get a combi bolter which with your BS5 is only slightly better than a bolter

Now there are some disadvantages:
No Rhinos
No +1 attack for a pistol
No Bikes, steeds
No grenades.
And sunk cost. If you want to give your lord a Sigil for the 4++, you dont get the 15 points back for the 5++ you already have. If you want to grab an axe of blindfury, your powerweapon is no different from a chain sword.

These things being said. A terminator lord is excellent for being fairly nasty and fairly cheap. A terminator lord with BBoS is 130 points. You can mark him for 145 points. Spending more than that isnt really a good idea, but you really dont need to. He is very nasty for under 150.

No love for the Juggerlord?

 Kain wrote:
No love for the Juggerlord?

Juggerlord is awesome but he can't be in termi armor.

I lump him in the same category as a biker lord.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Thanks for finding that.
So you need 2 units to ensure the sweeping advance. Not one.

Correct or what you can do is detach your Lord in the move phase and make 2 charges. that's what I do when I run artificer armor Captains. then the non termie can sweep.

Mali wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Thanks for finding that.
So you need 2 units to ensure the sweeping advance. Not one.

Correct or what you can do is detach your Lord in the move phase and make 2 charges. that's what I do when I run artificer armor Captains. then the non termie can sweep.

That works but you'll have waste part of your movement to get 2" away from the unit + rolling different charge rolls, it would be pretty sad if the loner doesn't roll enough and is ID by a shot. Also, if you end the combat on any of your turns the character would be an independent unit as well and get shot. Lastly maybe not that much of a biggie for the loyalists, but the lord is the one thing that allows termies not to run/get pinned/get swept, if the lord isn't with them there is the possibility that they run like a bunch of little girls with then Ld 9 (assuming the champ is alive and w/o VotLW)

 Exergy wrote:

Now there are some disadvantages:
No +1 attack for a pistol
No grenades.

Well, if you take two specialist weapons you can get +1 attack. I usually suggest the LC/PF combo.
Also, you can take blight grenades if your nurgle.

No, I wouldn't bother with terminator armor.

Firstly, it's not a better value, mostly because of reduplication. You have to pay for the combi-bolter and the power weapon, and then have to pay again to upgrade them to something better.

Secondly, it's not necessary. Wherever a chaos lord goes, he's getting a 2+ LoS! The same 2+ as the terminator armor. Plus, 3+ armor isn't exactly bad either. The only time you're really ever going to need that armor is in a challenge, but there isn't anything that only has regular attacks that's going to beat a chaos lord. There isn't much that will even get a chance to swing. Really, the only thing you have to worry about are failed LoS! rolls against weapons that cause instant death, and challenges against things that swing more quickly than you do, and cause instant death.

For both of those things, a better armor save is likely going to be useless. What you need is a better invul save, and THIS is why people don't take terminator lords. With a terminator lord, you've got to spend 40 points to give him a 5++ and another 25 points to give him a 4++.

A terminator lord with a lightning claw and powerfist and a sigil comes in at 152 points. A regular lord with a lightning claw, powerfist, and sigil comes in at 130 points. Is it worth it to spend 22 more points just for a better armor save that you don't need? In case that doesn't make sense in itself, which would you rather have, a chaos terminator lord with a lightning claw, power fist, and a 4++, or would you rather have a khorne lord with a 4++, an axe of blind fury, and another terminator or half an obliterator, or a Juggernaut?

Because a sigil is cheaper than terminator armor, and gets you what you actually need more of, it's generally better to just run them with a sigil, than with terminator armor. And that's before you even start to consider that they can't ride in vehicles, and they stop everyone from sweeping.

It's not necessarily straight worse, as there are going to be those occasions where you might want a real 2+ save, or a time when you're going to want to deepstrike them in with some other termies, or something, but unless you have a reason to cough up the extra points, it's generally slightly not worth it.

... And, on an unrelated note, it's a lot easier to kitbash a chaos lord out of bitz you already have from your marines, then needing to go and buy a box of terminators or an expensive terminator lord kit to achieve the same purpose...

The terminator armor is much better deal on a chaos sorcerer.

For 25 points you get the 2+ save and an invulnerable save. So that's a better deal in my eyes than 25 points for sigil of corruption and other items.

Getting a 2+ save against heldrakes, krak missiles and a lot of sergeants sporting a power weapon is pretty nice.

I send mine with oblits. If you score invisibility you can even get a 2+ cover save in terrain. Either that or give that out to something choppy going up field.