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 Peregrine wrote:

I don't think this is true at all. Licensed products don't necessarily have to be a literal reproduction of the events in the film and only the events in the film, it would be easy to use the ideas of the film (along with the rest of the LOTR IP that everyone is familiar with) and produce an "alternate universe" game where the characters in the movie fight just for the sake of fighting. It's exactly the thing plenty of kids do with their licensed toys as soon as they get them, even if the movie never had that exact fight.

Except that the license agreement with New Line has been notorious for it's inflexibility with GW. That wasn't an option. That had to put something out that was on the screen. But as we already said, the Battle for Moria would have made a better starter set than Goblin Town.

 Peregrine wrote:

The real problem with the Hobbit game was the complete lack of marketing. If you weren't already a GW customer you never heard of it, and adding a bunch of incredibly overpriced character models (and nothing else) to a game that is already selling poorly isn't going to get existing customers to buy it. And they certainly aren't going to buy it when even GW's own website pretty much drops the game as soon as it is released. Fix these problems and market the game correctly (starter sets in mainstream stores, advertising in places the movie audience is likely to see, etc) and it probably does a lot better.

That I agree with that. GW should have started back up the advertising contracts they had during the LotR times.

silent25 wrote:

Edit: And I think what Azrael is saying is that The Hobbit was always destined to be compared to the extant LotR product range. There was an opportunity to move the ball forward with the extant LotR range by expanding on the mass battle aspect of War of the Ring, which could easily have been done in combination with offering a different type of gaming experience with a character-focused narrative skirmish type game. What GW put out instead was a haphazard set of models that did not offer much to extant LotR customers/players in terms of providing avenues for expanding existing collections or starting new ones, and a bastardized set of expansion(esque) rules that did not really stand on its own.

And GW offered these weird, seemingly half-fleshed out product offerings at historically high prices. When you aren't sure what you are getting or what you are going to do with it, the last thing you want to see is a high price tag. Customers seemed to have been befuddled by the Hobbit release, in the sense of not really knowing what to do with it. That's a terrible place to be, and I think if you compare it to what GW was doing in the heady days of the LotR bubble, you can point to some pretty glaring absences in the GW creativity gene pool.

Problem is that the model selection goes back to what was on the screen in the movie.It is a licensed game and GW is not 100% in control of what can be made and not.

 loki old fart wrote:

So we could have had, gandalf the dwarfs,bilbo and an eagle. verses orc warg riders plus white orc and mount.
Instead of what we got.

You mean a couple models of trees with dwarfs in them throwing burning pine cones? That wasn't a very impressive scene. And again, we don't know if that kit contents was dictated by New Line or GW. Also given the models that show up in the book that weren't in the movie due to rewrites, GW was likely unaware of the final version of the scene. The Hobbit was a cluster-f for a number of companies that put out licensed products as was clearly shown in other threads.

But this is going off-topic and turning into a general Hobbit rant.

The major success of the LotR tabletop was due to:
1.) Standard aggressive marketing including TV ads.
2.) A reasonably priced introductory product available everywhere
3.) Follow up products that were not too expensive either, not even for full size battles.
And yes, 1+2 were made by DeAgostini and their mag+sprue product, with mag developed and sprue produced by GW but distributed by DeAgostini. Most successful GW release, most successfull DeAgostini release -> GW said never again.

So this time no advertising, no general distribution and doubling of prices for starter box and all other products of the line.
And yes, limited edition box still available

Backfire wrote:
This is what Kirby said in 2005 report:
Not only was the product much more successful than I ever dreamed it would be
(thank you Rick Priestley for a great game design), it has given us a valuable third product line to support Warhammer
and Warhammer 40,000.

This is what Kirby said October 2010:
Rick Who? Fire that clown!

 Kroothawk wrote:
The major success of the LotR tabletop was due to:
1.) Standard aggressive marketing including TV ads.
2.) A reasonably priced introductory product available everywhere
3.) Follow up products that were not too expensive either, not even for full size battles.
And yes, 1+2 were made by DeAgostini and their mag+sprue product, with mag developed and sprue produced by GW but distributed by DeAgostini. Most successful GW release, most successfull DeAgostini release -> GW said never again.

So this time no advertising, no general distribution and doubling of prices for starter box and all other products of the line.
And yes, limited edition box still available

Backfire wrote:
This is what Kirby said in 2005 report:
Not only was the product much more successful than I ever dreamed it would be
(thank you Rick Priestley for a great game design), it has given us a valuable third product line to support Warhammer
and Warhammer 40,000.

This is what Kirby said October 2010:
Rick Who? Fire that clown!

And thus Bolt Action was born.

Look, whether or not you believe that Priestly was instrumental in pushing the idea of a LotR wargame or not, the fact is that the man was at the very least instrumental in the design of the game and, as head of the design studio, had a significant impact on the art direction.

And that's the guy Kirby decides to give the boot to? The guy who was an important part of GW's most successful product lines? And Priestly is only one example. The point is that GW ran off a huge pool of talent that had been responsible for laying the foundation for GW's great successes, and now GW is facing problems. The dismal failure of the Hobbit is simply a very conspicuous example of the long term impact of forcing out talented, creative, energized people who want to do new things.

Games Workshop is stagnating because Kirby did not have the stones to do anything other than push Space Marines. Now, not surprisingly, 40K is growing to be a larger and large part of GW's business, and the company is becoming a one trick pony not unlike Lil' Sebastian. Some folks continue to love everything that the pony does beyond all sense or reason. That's fine, but 'Lil' Space Marine' is not going to live forever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Surtur wrote:

And thus Bolt Action was born.

Ronnie Renton who? Fire that clown!

And thus Mantic Games was born.

It's been a huge success for both Warlord and Osprey.

The problem with a niche industry is when you cease to employee talented people they end up being your competition. GW's downsizing of production left no shortage of qualified people for Renedra to snap up.

That said, not everything Rick touches is gold-- remember the failed kickstarter?

--

As to the rumour about 40k, I wonder if it's true that 40k now makes up more than half of GW's sales. Given the Hobbit boxes sitting everywhere and the constant stream of anecdotes about fantasy drying up after 8th edition, I'm inclined to say it's reasonable.

The last few reports from GW haven't contained glowing things about fantasy. I recall Kirby calling 8th an attempt to revitalize an already dropping fantasy sales rate. So if it failed and alienated even more players, that could leave GW with the majority of their sales from 40k.

Codex Space Marines?

 frozenwastes wrote:
It's been a huge success for both Warlord and Osprey.

The problem with a niche industry is when you cease to employee talented people they end up being your competition. GW's downsizing of production left no shortage of qualified people for Renedra to snap up.

That said, not everything Rick touches is gold-- remember the failed kickstarter?

--

As to the rumour about 40k, I wonder if it's true that 40k now makes up more than half of GW's sales. Given the Hobbit boxes sitting everywhere and the constant stream of anecdotes about fantasy drying up after 8th edition, I'm inclined to say it's reasonable.

The last few reports from GW haven't contained glowing things about fantasy. I recall Kirby calling 8th an attempt to revitalize an already dropping fantasy sales rate. So if it failed and alienated even more players, that could leave GW with the majority of their sales from 40k.

The thing is, the Design Studio has been growing for several years, while getting rid of big name designers. They are pushing out products faster, but the range is "more of the same" -- updates and revisions of stuff dating back to 3rd edition. The last original new thing was Dread Fleet, which basically was a failure because it wasn't good.

 5deadly wrote:
Codex Space Marines?

Fluffy green pineapple?

 Kilkrazy wrote:

The thing is, the Design Studio has been growing for several years, while getting rid of big name designers. They are pushing out products faster, but the range is "more of the same" -- updates and revisions of stuff dating back to 3rd edition. The last original new thing was Dread Fleet, which basically was a failure because it wasn't good.

When Alessio Cavatore left GW and gave a number of interviews, he did openly say there was limited room to grow. Once you head designer of one or two of the systems, there isn't any further promotion possibility. Jervis is head of the design studio and until he leaves you will continue to see most designers leave after they have done an edition of WHFB and 40k. But that is typical of any workplace where a static upper management level prevents younger employees from advancing beyond a certain point. They either stay put in their current position or leave for better opportunities elsewhere.

Sad thing with Dreadfleet was that is was the first completely different thing GW had put out in almost a decade. Everything else has just been a revision of an existing property.

silent25 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

The thing is, the Design Studio has been growing for several years, while getting rid of big name designers. They are pushing out products faster, but the range is "more of the same" -- updates and revisions of stuff dating back to 3rd edition. The last original new thing was Dread Fleet, which basically was a failure because it wasn't good.

When Alessio Cavatore left GW and gave a number of interviews, he did openly say there was limited room to grow. Once you head designer of one or two of the systems, there isn't any further promotion possibility. Jervis is head of the design studio and until he leaves you will continue to see most designers leave after they have done an edition of WHFB and 40k. But that is typical of any workplace where a static upper management level prevents younger employees from advancing beyond a certain point. They either stay put in their current position or leave for better opportunities elsewhere.

Sad thing with Dreadfleet was that is was the first completely different thing GW had put out in almost a decade. Everything else has just been a revision of an existing property.

And sometimes those fail. What we see in GW today is, I believe, happening because GW keeps around people who are just willing to put in their hours and draw a paycheck by regurgitating the same thing; like Jes Goodwin, for example. He has stuck around GW because he is 'GW people'. He is basically a corporate stooge who is comfortable doing whatever his boss tells him to do and nothing more. I don't look at Goodwin and see drive, creativity, or even passion. Those people do not survive at GW because GW is stifling.

The greatest and best example is Mantic Games, which is a smorgasbord of ideas GW balled up and threw in the trash put into profitable practice by the very guys who pitched those ideas to GW. All of the money Mantic is making could have been made by GW, and more. Mantic is not filling holes in GW's universe with tasteless knockoffs, Mantic is blazing forward with product ideas that were too avant garde across the street; ideas like regularly supporting specialist games. The irony is that these are the ideas that GW got fat off of in the first place!

That isn't GW anymore. Today, GW is about treading water with Space Marines and issuing a predictable dividend. That is entirely Kirby's fault.

Now if only Mantic was as good with execution as they are with ideas.

GW is Kirby's cash machine. It's not about games or miniatures, but about sales and dividends. And it's working for Kirby. Even on a year he calls "mixed" he put a million in his own pocket. Even paid out last year's cash reserves.

The extremely high dividend to earnings ratio is troubling from an investment standpoint. It's basically a big sign to investors saying "We couldn't think of any part of our business to invest the money in, so here you go, I guess." Most companies won't pay a dividend greater than what they reinvest. They want to let their stock holders know they can both produce cash and reinvest for growth. GW apparently can't think of anything to do to make more money with the money they have.

The Dwarf King's Hold games from Mantic have some pretty good execution to go with their good ideas, I reckon.

weeble1000 wrote:

And sometimes those fail. What we see in GW today is, I believe, happening because GW keeps around people who are just willing to put in their hours and draw a paycheck by regurgitating the same thing; like Jes Goodwin, for example. He has stuck around GW because he is 'GW people'. He is basically a corporate stooge who is comfortable doing whatever his boss tells him to do and nothing more. I don't look at Goodwin and see drive, creativity, or even passion. Those people do not survive at GW because GW is stifling.

I think the Dark Eldar release from a few years ago would highly disagree with you. So old timers who stay around are stooges but old timers who are booted are victims and martyrs?

silent25 wrote:
Except that the license agreement with New Line has been notorious for it's inflexibility with GW. That wasn't an option. That had to put something out that was on the screen. But as we already said, the Battle for Moria would have made a better starter set than Goblin Town.

I'm not saying they need to put out something that isn't on the screen, they just need to remind people that they have an entire generic combat game in the LOTR universe already and all of the Hobbit models can be part of it. If they had done that the lack of battle scenes in the Hobbit movie wouldn't have been a fatal problem, people could have used their Hobbit models against LOTR forces and invented all the battles they want. But instead GW tried to market it as a separate product and failed to exploit their existing material, so all you saw was a mediocre starter set and a lot of overpriced character models. They lost their potential customer's attention long before they would ever take a look at if and how the Hobbit models tie into the LOTR game.

weeble1000 wrote:

silent25 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

The thing is, the Design Studio has been growing for several years, while getting rid of big name designers. They are pushing out products faster, but the range is "more of the same" -- updates and revisions of stuff dating back to 3rd edition. The last original new thing was Dread Fleet, which basically was a failure because it wasn't good.

When Alessio Cavatore left GW and gave a number of interviews, he did openly say there was limited room to grow. Once you head designer of one or two of the systems, there isn't any further promotion possibility. Jervis is head of the design studio and until he leaves you will continue to see most designers leave after they have done an edition of WHFB and 40k. But that is typical of any workplace where a static upper management level prevents younger employees from advancing beyond a certain point. They either stay put in their current position or leave for better opportunities elsewhere.

Sad thing with Dreadfleet was that is was the first completely different thing GW had put out in almost a decade. Everything else has just been a revision of an existing property.

And sometimes those fail. What we see in GW today is, I believe, happening because GW keeps around people who are just willing to put in their hours and draw a paycheck by regurgitating the same thing; like Jes Goodwin, for example. He has stuck around GW because he is 'GW people'. He is basically a corporate stooge who is comfortable doing whatever his boss tells him to do and nothing more. I don't look at Goodwin and see drive, creativity, or even passion. Those people do not survive at GW because GW is stifling.

The greatest and best example is Mantic Games, which is a smorgasbord of ideas GW balled up and threw in the trash put into profitable practice by the very guys who pitched those ideas to GW. All of the money Mantic is making could have been made by GW, and more. Mantic is not filling holes in GW's universe with tasteless knockoffs, Mantic is blazing forward with product ideas that were too avant garde across the street; ideas like regularly supporting specialist games. The irony is that these are the ideas that GW got fat off of in the first place!

That isn't GW anymore. Today, GW is about treading water with Space Marines and issuing a predictable dividend. That is entirely Kirby's fault.

sorry, weeble1000, but any time spent hanging out with Jes Goodwin will show you that he is very creative, driven, and passionate...
a flick through his books, and seeing the stuff that goes beyond what gets produced, shows he has a great deal of talent, and is no corporate stooge...
he is also responsible for most of the designs that us vets have been fans of for 20 years...
a large amount of his oldest sculpts still hold up well, even today...
is Jes responsible for Kirby's choices???
should he quit his job, and thus lose his ability to design models for the worlds that he had a huge hand in creating over the last 25 years???

every member of the studio that i have hung out with, exchanged emails with, and become friends with over the years, are very passionate about their jobs...
of course, when they are not happy about corporate decisions they don't go online and slag the boss...
they are not at conventions to talk smack about their own products...
they like their jobs, and being able to put food on the table by doing something creative...
should the studio all quit and become accountants???

as for Mantic and Warlord, i won't slam them for trying, but i can say that neither company has produced anything that has made me reach for my wallet...
i don't own a single mini from either company...
this isn't some kind of fanboy rant, as i collect Infinity, Studio McVey LE's, Confrontation, PP, Freebooter, and many more...
yet, Mantic haven't enticed me to spend a dime on their minis, ditto Warlord...
GW still entice me with great art, minis, and stories every year, without fail...

i'm not a fan of the corporate side of the business, but i've got a lot of love for the studio...
maybe one day they will let me down, but it hasn't happened yet...
what GW has done is given me over 25 years of enjoyment, great art, cool books, and great models...
i have watched them push plastics from very static mono-pose minis to the dynamic multi-pose kits we have now...
i have watched them constantly invest in the latest technology for decades...

now, when GW doesn't entice me, they don't get my money...
i don't own any Finecast...
i don't own a Wraithknight, a Riptide, or a Khornemower...

i do still enjoy White Dwarf, Black Library, plastic minis, and Forge World...
those things bring me great pleasure, and that's all i ask...
i'm never disappointed if i don't have expectations...
GW doesn't owe me anything, and i don't owe them anything...

i'm off to paint a Forge World Space Marine (Commander Culln) now, and then read a bit more of Vulkan Lives...
good times...

cheers
jah

weeble1000 wrote:

silent25 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

The thing is, the Design Studio has been growing for several years, while getting rid of big name designers. They are pushing out products faster, but the range is "more of the same" -- updates and revisions of stuff dating back to 3rd edition. The last original new thing was Dread Fleet, which basically was a failure because it wasn't good.

When Alessio Cavatore left GW and gave a number of interviews, he did openly say there was limited room to grow. Once you head designer of one or two of the systems, there isn't any further promotion possibility. Jervis is head of the design studio and until he leaves you will continue to see most designers leave after they have done an edition of WHFB and 40k. But that is typical of any workplace where a static upper management level prevents younger employees from advancing beyond a certain point. They either stay put in their current position or leave for better opportunities elsewhere.

Sad thing with Dreadfleet was that is was the first completely different thing GW had put out in almost a decade. Everything else has just been a revision of an existing property.

And sometimes those fail. What we see in GW today is, I believe, happening because GW keeps around people who are just willing to put in their hours and draw a paycheck by regurgitating the same thing; like Jes Goodwin, for example. He has stuck around GW because he is 'GW people'. He is basically a corporate stooge who is comfortable doing whatever his boss tells him to do and nothing more. I don't look at Goodwin and see drive, creativity, or even passion. Those people do not survive at GW because GW is stifling.

The greatest and best example is Mantic Games, which is a smorgasbord of ideas GW balled up and threw in the trash put into profitable practice by the very guys who pitched those ideas to GW. All of the money Mantic is making could have been made by GW, and more. Mantic is not filling holes in GW's universe with tasteless knockoffs, Mantic is blazing forward with product ideas that were too avant garde across the street; ideas like regularly supporting specialist games. The irony is that these are the ideas that GW got fat off of in the first place!

That isn't GW anymore. Today, GW is about treading water with Space Marines and issuing a predictable dividend. That is entirely Kirby's fault.

Hmmm let's see.


All the talent has left to make imho derivative poorly executed models at Mantic.
The awesome creatives are making a poorly executed historical ruleset at Warlord?
Jes Goodwin = Stooge?

We get it. You don't like GW but you're pretty much just ranting and grabbing straws at this point chum.

silent25 wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

And sometimes those fail. What we see in GW today is, I believe, happening because GW keeps around people who are just willing to put in their hours and draw a paycheck by regurgitating the same thing; like Jes Goodwin, for example. He has stuck around GW because he is 'GW people'. He is basically a corporate stooge who is comfortable doing whatever his boss tells him to do and nothing more. I don't look at Goodwin and see drive, creativity, or even passion. Those people do not survive at GW because GW is stifling.

I think the Dark Eldar release from a few years ago would highly disagree with you. So old timers who stay around are stooges but old timers who are booted are victims and martyrs?

You are missing the point completely. I never called them martyrs. The point is why they left. And they left. Encouraged to leave, discouraged to stick around, maybe, but they left Games Workshop. They left Games Workshop because GW was by and large not interested in doing anything new. The people who stick around for 20 years in a company that does not treat the creative minds behind its products well, does not foster a healthy environment for creativity, and that clearly places a very high value on towing the company line and not making waves are stooges.

Jes Goodwin is a Games Workshop stooge. I've met the man. There's little redeeming about him. He is a company guy through and through who has been drinking the Koolaid (tm) for decades. He has a comfy birth that does not challenge him and he's fine with it, even if he has to compromise his morals to do it.

The problem with Games Workshop, in terms of the health of the company long term, is that it has not managed to hang on to the creative minds behind its products. I see that as a big problem. If the principle designer of one of your most successful product lines leaves because he does not feel stimulated, that's a huge problem. If the guy in charge of your design studio walks out the door, takes with him ideas that you turned down, and starts a successful, directly competing company virtually across the street, that is a huge warning sign.

I'm not boo-hooing for Priestly, Cavatore, The Perry Twins, McVey, or any other former Games Workshop employee. Those guys are engaging in successful, stimulating careers. What I am saying is that Games Workshop pushed out a vast pool of talent and saw its products become stale and unsuccessful. I'm saying that this is not a big surprise. I'm saying Games Workshop should have seen it coming. I'm saying that if Games Workshop continues to stick to its one trick pony, squeeze blood out of a stone attitude, the company is not going to see growth going forward, as it has not in the past 5 years or so. I'm saying that it is no surprise that 40K is propping up the company.

Feel free to twist what I am saying all you want, but I think my point has always been pretty darn clear. Kirby is good at lining his own pockets, there's no doubt about that. But the only future he is looking out for is his own; not his company, not his employees; his own. And that is the single most important reason why Games Workshop has stagnated. And if you think Games Workshop has done anything other than stagnate, the numbers just don't lie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jah-joshua wrote:

cheers
jah

I appreciate your opinion, and I agree that Jes has done interesting, creative work. I do not mean to belittle that, but I think he is an . I do not like the man. That is neither here nor there, really. But I do think there's a reason why Goodwin stuck around Games Workshop when his mates by and large went on to do their own thing. Most of the folks I have met that have been around Games Workshop as long Goodwin has been are, in my personal experience, awful human beings. I am terribly biased of course, but my personal feelings don't change the situation with GW's business.

I think it is at least fair to say that Tom Kirby likes to have people around that don't ask questions, don't make waves, and stroke his ego. I have not met anyone who has disabused me of that notion, and it seems to me to have been having a detrimental impact on GW's business.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 notprop wrote:

All the talent has left to make imho derivative poorly executed models at Mantic.
The awesome creatives are making a poorly executed historical ruleset at Warlord?
Jes Goodwin = Stooge?

We get it. You don't like GW but you're pretty much just ranting and grabbing straws at this point chum.

I don't think you get it. It does not matter what you personally think about Mantic's products. I don't like a lot of their sculpts. But that does not matter. I'm not talking about some subjective evaluation of art. I am talking about business. This is a thread about Games Workshop's financial report.

I hope we can agree that Mantic has been a successful business, yes? I daresay that is a fact. It is also a fact that Mantic has been successful doing what Games Workshop has not wanted to do: lower prices, fill gaps in the product line, support specialist games, and so forth. Clearly, customers like that. And those are Games Workshop's customers. If they aren't or weren't, then the hobby is expanding and Games Workshop's share of it aint getting any bigger.

Mantic has been growing. Mantic has been successful. Games Workshop is losing ground in the UK. We are hearing that WHFB is so dead GW is breaking out the defibrillator. Who cares what you think about the quality of Mantic's art. Dreadball, for example, is something Games Workshop would not have done, period.

Do you not think it is a big deal that the former head of GW's design studio is Mantic's CEO, that one of GW's hottest game designers wrote Mantic's games, that the man who sculpted the first Space Marine model has been banging out Mantic products? Do you not find it significant that guys who cut their teeth building Games Workshop's success are now building a directly competing company at a time when GW's foothold on the market is beginning to slip? I mean, you can make a decision about that without even knowing what industry the companies are in, let alone comparing the quality of their respective artwork.

I just read the OP. I like the dig he takes on Pokémon, while not realizing that GW will have to exist for another 20 years before making the profit that Bandai did on Pokémon (if it were to stop existing today that is).

weeble1000 wrote:
Do you not think it is a big deal that the former head of GW's design studio is Mantic's CEO, that one of GW's hottest game designers wrote Mantic's games, that the man who sculpted the first Space Marine model has been banging out Mantic products? Do you not find it significant that guys who cut their teeth building Games Workshop's success are now building a directly competing company at a time when GW's foothold on the market is beginning to slip? I mean, you can make a decision about that without even knowing what industry the companies are in, let alone comparing the quality of their respective artwork.

There's also Renedra, chocked full of ex-GW people, making plastic kit tooling available to many, many companies. Mike McVey worked with Privateer Press in the development of the hobby side of their product line. There's also probably more than a couple local store owners who used to work for GW's retail arm but now run their own stores, offering GW's competitor's products. I think Strategies Games in Vancouver is an example of exactly that.

I now see your point about Mantic. Dreadball and Deadzone are exactly the type of things GW was doing when they had their massive period of growth back in the 90s. it is indeed about business and not individual aesthetic preferences. That said, miniature wargaming is a visual hobby and Mantic needs to make more things like the Deadzone sculpts and less things like their elves or mal-proportioned basilians.

Kirby valued a yes-man attitude over skills and now he's got competitors flooded with highly skilled individuals that are looking to do something beyond what GW is interested in offering.

silent25 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

The thing is, the Design Studio has been growing for several years, while getting rid of big name designers. They are pushing out products faster, but the range is "more of the same" -- updates and revisions of stuff dating back to 3rd edition. The last original new thing was Dread Fleet, which basically was a failure because it wasn't good.

When Alessio Cavatore left GW and gave a number of interviews, he did openly say there was limited room to grow. Once you head designer of one or two of the systems, there isn't any further promotion possibility. Jervis is head of the design studio and until he leaves you will continue to see most designers leave after they have done an edition of WHFB and 40k. But that is typical of any workplace where a static upper management level prevents younger employees from advancing beyond a certain point. They either stay put in their current position or leave for better opportunities elsewhere.

Sad thing with Dreadfleet was that is was the first completely different thing GW had put out in almost a decade. Everything else has just been a revision of an existing property.

The studio has "grown" in the sense of adding more headcount. They are up to about 90 people.

Obviously as with any company the ability of junior staff to grow is limited by the company's own growth of size and diversity. GW's diversity has been static, though, which is not a good thing for what is supposedly a creative company.

I think GW have changed from being a company that generates new ideas and IP to a company that coasts on the momentum of its existing products, and just offers minor updates.

weeble1000 wrote:
Do you not think it is a big deal that the former head of GW's design studio is Mantic's CEO, that one of GW's hottest game designers wrote Mantic's games, that the man who sculpted the first Space Marine model has been banging out Mantic products? Do you not find it significant that guys who cut their teeth building Games Workshop's success are now building a directly competing company at a time when GW's foothold on the market is beginning to slip? I mean, you can make a decision about that without even knowing what industry the companies are in, let alone comparing the quality of their respective artwork.

The short answer is; no.

I do not think it is a big deal that Mantic is set up and run by ex-GW staff.

Incidentally the same is true of:

Foundry (somewhat larger than Mantic) - indeed this was set up by Bryan Ansell no less!
Battlefront (somewhat larger than Mantic)
Warlord Games (somewhat larger than Mantic)
plus many, many more smaller ones like Studio McVey etc.

The next time you look at a UK games company check to see if it is near Nottingham, its quite the gaming hub. The dearth of companies that have been set up by or have staff that used to work at GW in the UK is huge. It's almost as if it was an Academy for great hobbyists (GW had their pick of the community afterall). So between GW and the internet making such start up more visible there is a huge number of well known ex-staffers doing things that we all know about.

The fact that they left is a fact of life in business, training people for them to leave is an unfortunate by product of trying to make people the best they can be. 5 juniors in to 1 or 2 senior positions doesn't go, so those that feel they are too good to wait (or are not as good as they think they are) will drift off.

As companies grow and shrink the people that work there do. You can not have everyone working as directors or heads of department nor can every idea be realised so people will naturally fall by the wayside.

So when the one big fish in the pool drops people they will naturally enough pick up positions elsewhere or make their own mark. So as I say; no big deal.

Oh and Alessio Cavatore = Hottest games designer? Cheers I needed that.


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 Kilkrazy wrote:
.....

I think GW have changed from being a company that generates new ideas and IP to a company that coasts on the momentum of its existing products, and just offers minor updates.

I concur, but until they off load the LotR/Hobbit line they are stuck with the 3 systems they have. Its a fine rules system but unless the next films do something the first didn't and GW plan/ for/latch onto whatever that is it will continue to be a millstone.

To be fair I do think they try to be more creative with the existing systems but always fail in that respect as they avoid making complexities. Look at Mighty/Planetary Empires, an awesome system of campaign tiles with rules that were effectively two sides of A4. The original edition was simple enough but had a bit more depth and options and made for a fun standalone game too (although I am aware that this was a regurgitation).

In a few years when the Hobbit licence is done/dead with they might find themselves with a design studio with little to do. A refocus on WHFB for the next edition would have been done by then leaving some slack in the design studio. I'd like to see Epic brought back as the third system or just Specialist Games generally.

 notprop wrote:

Hmmm let's see.


All the talent has left to make imho derivative poorly executed models at Mantic.
The awesome creatives are making a poorly executed historical ruleset at Warlord?
Jes Goodwin = Stooge?

We get it. You don't like GW but you're pretty much just ranting and grabbing straws at this point chum.

Some of the early Mantic models were pretty crude, but the new ones have been much more impressive.

What's the pooly executed historical ruleset from Warlord? From what I'm aware all of them are pretty highly regarded (Black Powder, Pike & Shot, Hail Caesar and Bolt Action), and from what I've read of the ones I own (Hail Caesar and Bolt Action) they are better rulesets than GW is producing.

I presume you mean Beyond the Gates of Antares? Yes the kickstarter failed, but I think it's because they approached the kickstarter wrong, not because the team is incapable or the rules are bad. Most successful kickstarters have a low goal and lots of stretch goals to get to huge funding targets, whereas they were more direct and had a funding goal of £300k which covered everything, instead of rules at £30k and adding mini's packs every £30k. They also didn't treat it as a pre-launch platform.

Yeah I was thinking of Bolt Action rather than the other sets which are all good enough and should have stated that.

 notprop wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
Do you not think it is a big deal that the former head of GW's design studio is Mantic's CEO, that one of GW's hottest game designers wrote Mantic's games, that the man who sculpted the first Space Marine model has been banging out Mantic products? Do you not find it significant that guys who cut their teeth building Games Workshop's success are now building a directly competing company at a time when GW's foothold on the market is beginning to slip? I mean, you can make a decision about that without even knowing what industry the companies are in, let alone comparing the quality of their respective artwork.

The short answer is; no.

I do not think it is a big deal that Mantic is set up and run by ex-GW staff.

Incidentally the same is true of:

Foundry (somewhat larger than Mantic) - indeed this was set up by Bryan Ansell no less!
Battlefront (somewhat larger than Mantic)
Warlord Games (somewhat larger than Mantic)
plus many, many more smaller ones like Studio McVey etc.

Even though all of those companies are showing growth (at least in terms of product line; Mantic, Warlord & Battlefront have all launched new games recently, I don't know anything about Foundry) which GW isn't, and the products they are currently producing could have been produced by GW instead of by their competitors.

Almost all of the people responsible for GW's previous success now work for GW's competition, who are getting the benefit of their experience and innovation.


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 notprop wrote:
Yeah I was thinking of Bolt Action rather than the other sets which are all good enough and should have stated that.

What's so bad about Bolt Action? (I'm genuinely curious; I've been reading through it whilst assembling an army, but haven't played yet). I've seen a few complaints about some sniper special rule taking out entire heavy weapon teams as being unrealistic and overpowered, and that vehicle movement isn't great, but I don't see how that translates to poorly executed).

It doesn't matter what Notprop thinks about Bolt Action. It's irrelevant to the point. Warlord is doing great and adding more products and rules all the time. They are making plastic kits thanks to Renedra. All of this is done by ex-GW people. Osprey seems happy enough with the line. They'll be releasing the 8th book later this year.

Notprop's opinion of Bolt Action as a rules set is 100% irrelevant to weeble1000's point. My dislike for most of Mantic's miniatures was as well. Weeble is talking about business, not aesthetics or individual rules preferences.

Is it really any surprise that all of these other companies are full of ex-GW people? Of course they are. GW gave all of these people their start in the industry as the largest employer in the industry.

Additionally, as people have said before in this thread, it's much easier to show growth when you're making $1MM vs. $140MM.

 cincydooley wrote:
Is it really any surprise that all of these other companies are full of ex-GW people? Of course they are. GW gave all of these people their start in the industry as the largest employer in the industry.

Additionally, as people have said before in this thread, it's much easier to show growth when you're making $1MM vs. $140MM.

Ok, rambling anecdote time!

My dad works for an insurance company, they're fairly small by those standards, but punch well above their weight in their niche. Dad works from home, and manages a surrounding geographical area, he's responsible for all sales and service to the company's customers and is usually their first point of contact. Sales wise, he is the leading guy by a country mile, approaching almost double in terms of annual income of his nearest rival, has been so for 5 years and has been top salesman for probably 25 or so of the 30 years he's worked for them.

A few weeks ago he reached retirement age, but partly because he doesn't like being idle, and partly because he likes his job quite a lot, he wants to keep working. He does want to take it easier though. As a result, his company are allowing him to work part time from later this year, and are taking on someone at their head office to assist in the admin side of the job, which he hates and takes time away from allowing him to do what he enjoys and does best, which is making money for the business.

This is the behaviour of a normal firm, not out of sentimentality, but because it makes sound business sense to go out of your way to retain staff that are an asset to your business.

Any interview with any ex GW "names" that touches on the subject (I'm thinking specifically Juan Diaz, Alessio and RP that I've seen/read myself) doesn't require too deep a reading between the lines to see that it simply doesn't seem to be that way at GW.

This is simply poor practice, but then it doesn't take too much imagination to see creatives as the grist to the GW money mill, and there's no doubt a ready supply of naive, talented amateurs that are capable of doing "good enough."

I was under the impression that many of them wanted to "do their own thing" and used that as a major reason they left GW?

Priestly with Anteres, etc. They wanted to have ownership of their own IP and thus branched out on their own?