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Frankly, I don't believe you. I don't believe that a person can like a thing, invest heavily in a thing both financially and emotionally(and don't try and claim you've not invested emotionally in your hobbies), and then have that thing change in front of your eyes into something that not only doesn't appeal to you, but is being pushed by a company that now views you as something between an annoying parasite and a completely gullible ambulatory wallet with zero impulse control, and you would simply shrug your shoulders, mumble "welp, dems da breaks", and walk away with no ill feeling, no regret at what the hobby you enjoyed has become, no animosity of any kind.
I collected comics from 2001-2011. 10 years of some pretty serious collecting. I had around 25 long boxes full of comics. Thats around 6000 comics. I was tired of them just sitting around, and I'd simply stopped purchasing the books because I didnt want to make room for them anymore. Then I sold them to my local comic shop for around 40 bucks a box, far less than what I had invested in them. It was hard until the minute I sold them. Now I feel liberated. Did the same thing with all my Black Library MMPBs. Just sold around 100 of them on eBay. Liberating. Its pretty fantastic to get rid of any emotional attachments to things. IMO, the only thing you should have emotional attachments to is people and pets.
But the hobby hasn't changed for me. At all. I couldn't care less how they feel about me. I recognize that, to them I am nothing more than a wallet. And that's okay. I don't play the game with a single person from GWHQ. I don't play the game with a single person from GWHQ Middle Management. GW has NOTHING to do with my impulse control. In fact, their raising of prices has made my impulse control that much easier to manage. At $50-$60 bucks, I'd already have one of the Carnosaur kits. I'd buy that, without having an army, due to the "I want to build and paint that" factor. Because it's $85, I thought twice yesterday when I had it in my hand. IF I buy one, it's going to end up being a planned purchase.
I don't have any feeling toward GW, ill or otherwise. They make gak my friends and I like to play with. If all of my buddies played Privateer Press stuff, I'd buy more of that. But they don't.
How GW handles their business has no -- ZERO -- impact on my enjoyment of the wargaming hobby. It simply impacts how much I buy from them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/08 19:54:55
cincydooley wrote: How GW handles their business has no -- ZERO -- impact on my enjoyment of the wargaming hobby. It simply impacts how much I buy from them.
Frankly, I don't believe you. I don't believe that a person can like a thing, invest heavily in a thing both financially and emotionally(and don't try and claim you've not invested emotionally in your hobbies), and then have that thing change in front of your eyes into something that not only doesn't appeal to you, but is being pushed by a company that now views you as something between an annoying parasite and a completely gullible ambulatory wallet with zero impulse control, and you would simply shrug your shoulders, mumble "welp, dems da breaks", and walk away with no ill feeling, no regret at what the hobby you enjoyed has become, no animosity of any kind.
I collected comics from 2001-2011. 10 years of some pretty serious collecting. I had around 25 long boxes full of comics. Thats around 6000 comics. I was tired of them just sitting around, and I'd simply stopped purchasing the books because I didnt want to make room for them anymore. Then I sold them to my local comic shop for around 40 bucks a box, far less than what I had invested in them. It was hard until the minute I sold them. Now I feel liberated. Did the same thing with all my Black Library MMPBs. Just sold around 100 of them on eBay. Liberating. Its pretty fantastic to get rid of any emotional attachments to things. IMO, the only thing you should have emotional attachments to is people and pets.
But the hobby hasn't changed for me. At all. I couldn't care less how they feel about me. I recognize that, to them I am nothing more than a wallet. And that's okay. I don't play the game with a single person from GWHQ. I don't play the game with a single person from GWHQ Middle Management. GW has NOTHING to do with my impulse control. In fact, their raising of prices has made my impulse control that much easier to manage. At $50-$60 bucks, I'd already have one of the Carnosaur kits. I'd buy that, without having an army, due to the "I want to build and paint that" factor. Because it's $85, I thought twice yesterday when I had it in my hand. IF I buy one, it's going to end up being a planned purchase.
I don't have any feeling toward GW, ill or otherwise. They make gak my friends and I like to play with. If all of my buddies played Privateer Press stuff, I'd buy more of that. But they don't.
How GW handles their business has no -- ZERO -- impact on my enjoyment of the wargaming hobby. It simply impacts how much I buy from them.
Cannot agree more, how long are most GW critics going to feel betrayed? I've been playing since Rogue Trader myself and I have yet to ever feel any of these aweful feelings shared by most critics. We made an RPG out of Rogue Trader in highschool and have been belting out 40k, Fantasy, Epic, et al since I can remember. From time to time other games and other hobbies intrude and I've yet to care. We played Battlesystem, VOR, Void, Warzone, Mechwarrior, ect. Again time and time again none of it matters if the companies involved went away, my friends didnt. The hobby never was, and certainly now is not expensive. I have spent more in other miniature systems, far more in DnD books and and more again with various video games. I have (now discarded) boxes of VHS tapes, neglected DVDs, all of this changes, all of it not worth one bit of upsetness over.
Dungeons and Dragons have made much worse of their own brand than anything GW has ever done, or pretty much ever will. Ive been DMing games for almost 30 years and without regret switched to Pathfinder on the outset of 4th edtition, out over $200 dollars in new books to boot. I wish everyone involved well but frankly who cares, what was (and very much is) important is what my friends do, our memories. The time I broke a Blood Bowl dice in half, the time a friend of mine decapitated a miniature after fumbling on his attack roll playing DnD. The innumerable, improbable dice rolls, the time Deathmaster Snitch died to 5 Bretonian Bowmen, The time my Doom Scythe got the shot of a lifetime and soloed an opposing army effectively in one shot.
Again there is always something else, yes these people dont seem to have your best interest at heart, how long will you let them equally have the power over your emotional states?
I must say I'm going with cincydooley on this. I've been doing this for closely to 25 years now, and yes, I might be emotionally invested in what I do in my free time. But that just means that if I don't enjoy it, I'll stop. Whatever GW does hat no impact on that at all, though. They offer me stuff, and I'm free to take it or leave it. Most of the time it's 'leave it' anyway, because I don't need what they offer or think it's too expensive anyway. When I don't buy their stuff, it's not because I feel the burning need to send a signal and show it to The Man who's betrayed me.
Everybody here is constantly going on about how GW isn't "the Hhhobby", but as soon as the company acts crappy or produces ugly kits, it's GW that suddenly spoils the hobby you once loved? Seriously, "the hobby" isn't GW, it's none of the other companies on the market; it's those who practise it, however corny that may sound. Playing against a TFG or having a bad experience at a tournament tends to kill my enjoyment much more than *anything* a company could do - that's why I prefer to play with my mates anyway. Sometimes it's 40k, sometimes it's something else, whatever strikes our fancy. Should the 40k rules turn into total crap with a future edition (and I enjoy 6th more than any edition since 2nd) I might convert or adapt some other system to use with the models I have. Should GW get even more expensive I might only buy one model a year, instead of maybe two units, or none at all. Should more models turn out like the Centurions I might look for nice alternatives and convert them. But I wouldn't be personally offended, betrayed or hurt by anything GW can do.
azreal13 wrote: Ok, we'll simply take the idea of one party being a business in the relationship out of the equation, as its frankly irrelevant.
It boils down to this, how would you feel about "an entity" that, through it's actions, whatever they may be, put you in a position where you couldn't, or felt you couldn't in good conscience, do something you still really enjoyed doing?
Well, with the previous analogy, I'd find another coffee shop.
I honestly dont know how to respond. I've been sitting here for 5 minutes thinking about it, and I just don't know. I guess I don't adhere to any real sense of brand loyalty enough to allow myself to "develop a personal relationship" with a company. I'll try to elaborate through some examples, I guess.
Most of my handheld electronics are iProducts. This is mostly because I like the OS and because all my gak is already on iTunes. Plus, their format is one I'm familiar with and I know it has legs. I actually like the Windows Phone OS more than than iOS, but ended up getting an iPhone 5 instead of a Windows Phone because I didn't want the hassle of having to reorganize all my crap. If I could run iTunes on a Windows Phone, I'd have a Windows phone.
All of my jeans are from Lucky. This has nothing to do with Lucky beyond the fact that they were the first place that made a pair of jeans that fit me well. I can walk into the store (or online) order the size and style I know fit me, and not worry about the rest. It doesn't actually have anything to do with Lucky as a company; they simply make jeans that fit me well. It's possible that another company makes ones I'd like more, and if I found them, they'd get my denim dollars. I quite frankly havent looked, though.
I mean, the biggest complaints we see leveled at GW is that they're too expensive and they don't care about their customers. I guess, for me, I don't give a gak if they "care" about me. They don't need to. They need to make a product I want to buy. Thats where the pricing issue, for me, enters the equation. If a product I want is in a price range I'm willing to pay, I'll buy it. But of course, that all goes to that mythical, highly subjective, valuation of 'worth.'
This has turned into a bit of a rant, but I think it boils down to this: I don't care if companies care about me. It's not their responsibility to.
EDIT:
Actually, the whole serial novel thing is a good example here. I buy pretty much all the HH stuff. I don't mind the serialization of Scars. I do think the price is way too high based on their other product. When the serial is complete, it'll be $36 as opposed to the $16 I paid for Vulkan Lives. I agree that it's a pretty blantant price grab, but it doesn't "hurt my feelings" or personally affect me, not really.
Frankly, I don't believe you. I don't believe that a person can like a thing, invest heavily in a thing both financially and emotionally(and don't try and claim you've not invested emotionally in your hobbies), and then have that thing change in front of your eyes into something that not only doesn't appeal to you, but is being pushed by a company that now views you as something between an annoying parasite and a completely gullible ambulatory wallet with zero impulse control, and you would simply shrug your shoulders, mumble "welp, dems da breaks", and walk away with no ill feeling, no regret at what the hobby you enjoyed has become, no animosity of any kind.
I love golf. I used to play golf everyday because I grew up next to a golf course. In High School I played on the golf team. It meant I could play at any local course for $10 after 4pm. I had a decent set of clubs ($500 irons, a $300 putter, and a decent set of drivers 3 totaling $600) that I shared with my brother. Plus the gear needed to play like shoes a glove, a bag and a bunch of balls. In total, it was about $2,000 worth of gear. Once I graduated from HS and was no longer living at home with my folks, if I wanted to get a round of golf in, I had to pay the normal rate of about $80 a round. Not being able to afford it, I went less and less and less until I found something else to fill in that void (women, beer, and toy soldiers). My handicap in HS was between 4 and 6, now I'm happy if I break 100. I get asked why I play with vintage irons and drivers. Am I upset that it costs me more and more to play something I truly love and enjoy? No. I just don't get to do it as often. Am I upset that GW raised their prices? No, I just don't buy as much. Besides, I have most of what I need anyways. The only things I have to buy are the new models if I decide I really really want them. I've dropped TTWG from my hobbies before without bashing anyone online. I played one game of 40k during 4th edition, I hated the rules. I thought that was so much worse than 3rd edition. I just found other ways to pass my time. I played softball with my buddies, UCF rugby, did a lot of fishing, hunted gators, went lobstering, learned how to scuba, and many other things. If you thought this hobby is expensive... I think rugby is the cheapest hobby I had because all it cost me were cleats, a thick long sleeve shirt, some shorts, and if you don't count the beer, multiple broken noses, stitches, and bandages it really was cheap.
I don't know why your GW doesn't allow open gaming but the one in Orlando/Altamonte does and its the only place where you can find a pick up game of fantasy. The other local shops in Orlando only push 40k and Warmachine. The place that did push all of the other skirmish games shut down so finding anyone for infinity or that wyrd game with the deck of cards is a bust.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/09 05:45:21
To say that "most GW critics feel betrayed" is a straw man argument.
It is clear that some people do feel betrayed by GW, and this leads them to criticise the firm.
If you personally cannot understand that feeling by your empathy, you need to accept it intellectually or you will be unable to participate fully in the debate, because you will be ignoring a real factor.
However it is true also that many critics have unemotional reasons for their position, and these should not be ignored either.
I "Quit" GW several years back. The whole Australian embargo thing shot me straight out, and prevented me from buying more.
I still have my GW, shelved, and have moved on to greener pastures.
However, I still want GW to not be crap. And those projects are there for me to resume anytime I don't feel like they are gouging me based on my geolocation.
And so I have a stake, however small in these things.
And so it should be, games and communities become terrible echo chambers if all the detractors leave.
If your community is shrunk down until its just the people who love you, you can become worse than GW. You can become Catalyst Game Labs.
Some people are more vocal than others, and some do feel betrayed.
Here are two posts I made in another thread. Seem just as relevant here.
The problem is for many, they've been having a love affair with games Workshop. And she's turned round and said "Your not what I'm looking for, I'm seeing someone else".
"Some one said why can't they just quit. Why do they come on dakka, and tell everybody."
Well when you've just split up in a long time relationship, you tend to tell your m8s.
When the love affair with GW ends, you tell dakka.
For some the dakka community is the closest thing to friends they have.
Some people have had a longer relationship with GW, than their wife/girlfriend.
So you can be supportive or take the P*ss.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
I could be wrong but for someone not "emotionally" attached cincy does spend a lot of time charging around dakka telling people they are wrong about GW and that they should feel another way about GW etc.
I mean really you could look at him as the mirror opposite of the people he complains about, do we really need him posting about how great GW is all the time when he could just be playing the game.
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
notprop wrote: Yeah, I don't get the whole personal relationship with a company thing.
You enjoy the games or you don't enjoy the games. Simple as really.
I liked cincydooley's last post, you earned an Exalt for that one mate.
Righto, so you chaps are just being willfully obtuse now, right? Because I can't think of any other reason how you can fail to grasp that having a relationship with the product and the experiences you gain through it is not the same bloody thing as treating the corporation that makes that product as some kind of surrogate lover
Hell, maybe I'm just a loon, but when someone or something comes between me and the things I enjoy and have spent a long time invested in, I tend to find that annoying, and can easily come to resent that interference if it is sustained and ongoing. And apparently unlike you lot, I don't suddenly lose that impulse when the thing coming between me and my enjoyment is a corporate entity, perhaps because I don't buy into this neo-liberal nonsense that corporations are totally a-moral entities with no responsibilities to anyone.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
notprop wrote: Yeah, I don't get the whole personal relationship with a company thing.
You enjoy the games or you don't enjoy the games. Simple as really.
I liked cincydooley's last post, you earned an Exalt for that one mate.
Righto, so you chaps are just being willfully obtuse now, right? Because I can't think of any other reason how you can fail to grasp that having a relationship with the product and the experiences you gain through it is not the same bloody thing as treating the corporation that makes that product as some kind of surrogate lover
Hell, maybe I'm just a loon, but when someone or something comes between me and the things I enjoy and have spent a long time invested in, I tend to find that annoying, and can easily come to resent that interference if it is sustained and ongoing. And apparently unlike you lot, I don't suddenly lose that impulse when the thing coming between me and my enjoyment is a corporate entity, perhaps because I don't buy into this neo-liberal nonsense that corporations are totally a-moral entities with no responsibilities to anyone.
You're not by yourself! While I'm a long way from frothing at the mouth, tossing and turning at night unable to sleep and walking the streets muttering oaths of revenge, I do hold GW accountable for interfering with my enjoyment of their product, if they approached things differently (yes, the way I would do things, my opinion, entitled to it) then we'd both be happier, as I'd be enjoying the GW aspect of my hobby more, and they'd have more of my money.
That said, I couldn't be too 'mad' at them, as the net result of their ham-fisted mis-management of me as a customer has driven me to discover other games and model manufacturers that has enriched my hobby further. So, GW, ultimately, I, and your competitors, owe you a debt of gratitude!
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Kilkrazy wrote: To say that "most GW critics feel betrayed" is a straw man argument.
It is clear that some people do feel betrayed by GW, and this leads them to criticise the firm.
If you personally cannot understand that feeling by your empathy, you need to accept it intellectually or you will be unable to participate fully in the debate, because you will be ignoring a real factor.
However it is true also that many critics have unemotional reasons for their position, and these should not be ignored either.
First, I appreciate the bravery in some of you for agreeing with me; I know it's akin to cannibalism or satanism, so thanks!
I think that I may not quite understand "straw men arguments" as the phrase is often used here (despite googling it multiple times) but, based on my understanding of the phrase, I don't think it's wholly innaccurate to say that many people that criticize people do so from a place that appears to stem from that feeling of hurt/betrayal.
That's not to say that there aren't a ton of reasonable, rational reasons to be critical of GW; there absolutely are, and I weeble and Azrael are two of the best folks on here at articulating that. As such, I really enjoy reading their posts (even when we disagree--which is often ) and always thoughtfully consider what they have to say.
@Yodhrin - I'm not trying to be obtuse, my man, I'm just saying that I don't care enough about any corporation to remain unequivocally loyal to them; I recognize that they exist to sell me stuff. As a result, GW has no bearing on my enjoyment of the hobby; their business decisions simply dictate how much I buy from them. If I like something enough and think the price is appropriate, I buy it. If not, I don't. But I do think you make a good point about ethical business practices, and weebly made a great point about that earlier. I can completely see where one would have a problem with the manner in which GW throws around it's corporate weight and effectively 'bullies' smaller companies. I simply don't have a problem with that, which is, honestly, a simple matter of us having different ethical thresholds. And that's okay.
In the end, I think it would be better if people divorced themselves from these companies on a personal level more as a whole.
loki old fart wrote: Some people are more vocal than others, and some do feel betrayed.
Here are two posts I made in another thread. Seem just as relevant here.
The problem is for many, they've been having a love affair with games Workshop. And she's turned round and said "Your not what I'm looking for, I'm seeing someone else".
"Some one said why can't they just quit. Why do they come on dakka, and tell everybody."
Well when you've just split up in a long time relationship, you tend to tell your m8s.
When the love affair with GW ends, you tell dakka.
For some the dakka community is the closest thing to friends they have.
Some people have had a longer relationship with GW, than their wife/girlfriend.
So you can be supportive or take the P*ss.
And when my mates continue to complain about that same relationship, long after it supposedly ended, or they keep going back time after time, then they need some professional help, or need to move on.
I've been in the game since the tail end of 2nd edition, and have about 6 or 7 40k armies, not counting the specialist games, fantasy, FW stuff, etc. i've played in every edition and found them enjoyable. Do I buy every new release? Nope. Do I build 'cheese of the moment beatstick lists"? Nope. Does my army work in every edition and with ever codex for that army? Yup.
By the same token, there are lulls. And with recent prices, a serious hesitation to plunk down money. I consider it, get excited to buy X Y or Z, then don't. No skin off my teeth, no need to come on forums and complain about it. I just find those things in the hobby (or any hobby) that make it fun for me. Simples.
However, this all does make great theatre. I don't need cable, I can find comedy, drama, bad reality TV, heroes, villains, white knights, informed opinions, uninformed opinions, face palms, etc., all right here on Dakka. Don't ever change.
"There is rational thought here. It's just swimming through a sea of stupid and is often concealed from view by the waves of irrational conclusions." - Railguns
cincydooley wrote: First, I appreciate the bravery in some of you for agreeing with me; I know it's akin to cannibalism or satanism, so thanks!
I think that I may not quite understand "straw men arguments" as the phrase is often used here (despite googling it multiple times) but, based on my understanding of the phrase, I don't think it's wholly innaccurate to say that many people that criticize people do so from a place that appears to stem from that feeling of hurt/betrayal.
That's not to say that there aren't a ton of reasonable, rational reasons to be critical of GW; there absolutely are, and I weeble and Azrael are two of the best folks on here at articulating that. As such, I really enjoy reading their posts (even when we disagree--which is often ) and always thoughtfully consider what they have to say.
@Yodhrin - I'm not trying to be obtuse, my man, I'm just saying that I don't care enough about any corporation to remain unequivocally loyal to them; I recognize that they exist to sell me stuff. As a result, GW has no bearing on my enjoyment of the hobby; their business decisions simply dictate how much I buy from them. If I like something enough and think the price is appropriate, I buy it. If not, I don't. But I do think you make a good point about ethical business practices, and weebly made a great point about that earlier. I can completely see where one would have a problem with the manner in which GW throws around it's corporate weight and effectively 'bullies' smaller companies. I simply don't have a problem with that, which is, honestly, a simple matter of us having different ethical thresholds. And that's okay.
In the end, I think it would be better if people divorced themselves from these companies on a personal level more as a whole.
Pictures of cincydooley located!
PR Shot:
Candid taken while yelling at lackeys/minions about how inconceivable this whole subject is, along with how silly it is for anyone to read a book in MMPB format:
cincydooley wrote: In the end, I think it would be better if people divorced themselves from these companies on a personal level more as a whole.
Depends on what is important to the person.
You just want "stuff" to game, no care at all how it gets to you (right?).
Some people want to "save the world" and everything they buy is an ethical decision.
When a movie star, musician or company operate contrary to a given consumer's ethics or morals some just buy their stuff because they like it, others do not want to sponsor "bad behavior".
Kirby is rather refreshingly clear on his views, so some will not buy GW product based on those views, the product sold may have little bearing.
Turning to the forum topic:
I read that financial report a couple times:
I dislike how they fluff up "intangible assets" to increase their net worth which no-one can really lock horns with them on this and then take a big chunk out of their cash for dividends.
Summing up everything and including inflation = "they are holding their own".
It really looks like they are positioned to be a nice dividend machine with no other goals.
I had reviewed the document a little more thoroughly here (I should say rant): http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/544931.page#5929362
I just have to post this Kirby quote and my comments... I still am shaking my head:
He says this: "Within the business our number one and overwhelmingly important KPI (Key Performance Indicators) is sales. ‘Sales’ is all the money we take in and we quantify it by counting it." - which has no bearing on profit margin, then he says this:
"Earlier I said our most important measure was return on capital." - Which is minus the money spent to get product to customer to buy, plus the money we got from the sale = profit! like what the heck guy...
He is no politician so I can appreciate his honesty but yes, I "cannot handle the truth".
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
notprop wrote: Yeah, I don't get the whole personal relationship with a company thing.
You enjoy the games or you don't enjoy the games. Simple as really.
But you can understand how other people might feel differently?
At the very least I think it's possible to articulate a feeling of disappointment, similar to seeing someone you know waste their life on drugs or booze, a band that you once liked turn to prog rock, or a car you owned for years and then sold to someone only to see it covered in dents a short while later. I think the capacity is within us to (sometimes inadvertently) develop attachments and nostalgia for inanimate things.
Although having written that I guess it equates to where you think GW is right now! I would go with the prog rock analogy
loki old fart wrote: Some people are more vocal than others, and some do feel betrayed. For some the dakka community is the closest thing to friends they have.
If thats true, then they need to get out more. This game is a beer and pretzels game. You should spend your time having fun - when its over, go out and grab a beer (or soda if you're underage) and burger with the other people there. If GW doesn't float your boat take those good memories and find something else that will give you good memories. Life is too short to sit around and complain about things you can't control.
If you're a shut in, I really pray for you because that is a hard life to live. If you've got social anxiety, you can get help for that. Talk to a therapist, try the medication, do something other than shut the rest of the world out. Thats really the worst thing you can do. Life is like baseball - some of the greatest players only got on base 30% of the time and they were legends. Go out there and strike out from time to time. After a while, you won't remember the strike outs but just the hits. You won't have a chance to redo anything. Live with no regrets. Something isn't making you happy, get rid of it - notable exceptions to this rule are children and some pets (Florida does not want your python even though you think the Everglades National Park would make a great place for it to live out the rest of its life).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pacific wrote: Although having written that I guess it equates to where you think GW is right now! I would go with the prog rock analogy
Privateer Press is to GW as Megadeth is to Metallica?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/09 17:16:43
Candid taken while yelling at lackeys/minions about how inconceivable this whole subject is, along with how silly it is for anyone to read a book in MMPB format:
Has no idea whether to be offended or not.
Based on source, guessing not.
Oi Vey to MMPB
I'm really working hard on being open minded and congenial here!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/09 17:48:04
I can well understand those who have feelings of betrayal or whatnot, however my comment stands, how long?
How long do you keep going on for months and years when its been plain for well over a decade this company has a different agenda than you or I?
Just enjoy yourself, enjoy the memories, enjoy your friends. I most certainly have attachments to inanimate objects and I most certainly can be disappointed in items or actions however there is another day.
This site is for gaming, by gamers who support games, it is wearisome to see people so abjectly, constantly negative towards what should be a positive environment. The hobbies that have inured me for the last time (like TSR/Wizards/Hasbro) no longer get my money, they also no longer get my involvement. I wish the current supporters well but I don't go and probably never will go back to their sites to see what they are up to.
Again how long are people going to act out a Shakespearean melodrama about this, move on to happier things...
Again how long are people going to act out a Shakespearean melodrama about this, move on to happier things...
Well said.
Can you, as a customer, shape the way this company behaves? Only buy refusing to buy their product, or by purchasing a majority of shares.
That's all you can do.
They can't stop you playing the game, all they can do is stop releasing new stuff for it. If your enjoyment of the game depends on this, then shut up and hand over your money.
So, in essence, you're saying people don't have the right to be outraged by things that are outrageous, if it doesn't impact on them personally.
You remove that mechanism from human nature you have a very different world. Far fewer charities for a start.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
azreal13 wrote: So, in essence, you're saying people don't have the right to be outraged by things that are outrageous, if it doesn't impact on them personally.
You remove that mechanism from human nature you have a very different world. Far fewer charities for a start.
If I'm reading it correctly, I think the real attitude is one you find in Steven Covey:
Don't worry about the things outside your sphere of control or influence.
Ever since I read that book as part of some on-job enrichment, I've really tried to do that. Obviously (as evidenced by Dakka) it doesn't always happen, but the more I find myself letting go of worrying about things I can't change, the lower my stress level becomes.
With GW in particular, there's only so much you can control or influence about how GWHQ does business. What you can control is how much GW you buy or how often you frequent the GW shop. You can potentially increase that sphere by writing (well articulated and focused) letters to GW Corporate. I just don't know how much complaining on Dakka does to help expand either of those spheres, ya know?
If the TTWG community channeled all that worry into spheres we can control, everyone would have painted armies .
notprop wrote: Yeah, I don't get the whole personal relationship with a company thing.
You enjoy the games or you don't enjoy the games. Simple as really.
I liked cincydooley's last post, you earned an Exalt for that one mate.
Righto, so you chaps are just being willfully obtuse now, right? Because I can't think of any other reason how you can fail to grasp that having a relationship with the product and the experiences you gain through it is not the same bloody thing as treating the corporation that makes that product as some kind of surrogate lover
Hell, maybe I'm just a loon, but when someone or something comes between me and the things I enjoy and have spent a long time invested in, I tend to find that annoying, and can easily come to resent that interference if it is sustained and ongoing. And apparently unlike you lot, I don't suddenly lose that impulse when the thing coming between me and my enjoyment is a corporate entity, perhaps because I don't buy into this neo-liberal nonsense that corporations are totally a-moral entities with no responsibilities to anyone.
I grasp your very simple point, i just don't hold it at any value.
Also your inference that there has to be a 'them and us' dynamic is indicative of the whole point I was making. Be it Evil GW vs poor little gamers, a productive company vs. entitled juvenile customers, PP vs. GW or whatever, it's all meaningless. You like what they are selling or you don't, there's no point getting bent out of shape about it and forming sides is pretty juvenile and not worth my time.
Pacific wrote:
notprop wrote: Yeah, I don't get the whole personal relationship with a company thing.
You enjoy the games or you don't enjoy the games. Simple as really.
But you can understand how other people might feel differently?
At the very least I think it's possible to articulate a feeling of disappointment, similar to seeing someone you know waste their life on drugs or booze, a band that you once liked turn to prog rock, or a car you owned for years and then sold to someone only to see it covered in dents a short while later. I think the capacity is within us to (sometimes inadvertently) develop attachments and nostalgia for inanimate things.
Although having written that I guess it equates to where you think GW is right now! I would go with the prog rock analogy
There's a world of difference between negative lifestyle choices and a company making products for a consumer society.
By all means identify and prize inanimate objects (we all do) but do you piss and moan when your loved one breaks it? Rant about it for years.? Strike them? Of course not unless you are (to use Yodrins vernacular) a loon.
And use your.metaphor if GW produces a 32 track double album of Termietubbie Xylophone music it in no way ruins my enjoyment of my 20 year old Red coloured Necromunda Rock vinyl EP from a fresh faced Nottingham beat combo also called GW.
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