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 Grey Templar wrote:
Maybe not officially, but there are many IF successors that follow similar doctrines and for all intents and purposes are BTs.

The BTs are following the ways of the original legion to the letter, and many chapters follow in their footsteps.

If that were the case, the 4th Edition codex would have been Codex: Imperial Fists rather than Codex: Black Templars.

The Black Templars went down a very different path to their progenitor Chapter. Imperial Fists are a strict Codex Chapter, although they specialise in seige-craft. Black Templars... aren't.

Other Imperial Fists successors would be more likely to follow the Imperial Fists' doctrines rather than the rather divergent (and politically unpopular) methods of the Black Templars.

Well, couldn't you argue that the IF/BT/CF are a sort of trinity of their shared doctorine? Each manifesting their shared beliefs and strategy in a different way? Having an EC wouldn't be that uncommon in all flavors of the successors of the Sons of Dorn methinks.

But that discussion probably has the potential to go way OT, although it is interesting.

Whew! 62 pages of "Yo dawg, I heard you liked...." meme references, WORST MODEL EVA proclamations, and lectures on true scale. I'm exhausted!

While I do agree that the assault centurions are pretty ugly, I rather like the devastator version. The drill weapons are what's off about the assault version. The placement is wrong. Also, helmetless is just lame. But "WORST MODEL EVER" is just being harsh for the sake of hating on GW.

The sternguard are just too expensive $$ wise. Why are plastic models now as expensive as finecast? Vanguard being moved to Elites pretty much ensures they will never get used, as they are competing with Sternguard and terminators (as well as dreadnaughts). They should have stayed in FA (if the rumor is indeed true to begin with) where marine pickings are bit more slim.

Really like the new Hunter/Stalker Rhino variant, and like the idea of having a dedicated AA unit that's not an ADL. I just hope it has the option to fire non-skyfire, and I sincerely hope it has interceptor.

Not sure I believe all of the centurion rules claims from 40K radio that were previously posted. Seems an awful lot of detail without specifying the actual important stats, like saves and toughness. GW's need to make all imperial units that have 2 weapons twin linked is annoying as feth, and somewhat undercuts the usefulness of the centurions. Approximately 250 points for 3 gravcannons or TL Lascannons and 3 missile launchers. Unless they have T6 2W, and 2+ save, I'm not sure how often they will see use. The direct point comparison to Broadsides is a bit off, since 3 centurions can't throw out 36 missile shots and can't use wound-soaking drones. They also can't get interceptor and skyfire. 40K is a game of options and upgrades, and he who has the best upgrades, pays the most baseline points.

I'm really excited to hear about the chapter tactics, but I'm wondering how its going to work exactly. One would think that if playing a successor chapter, you would use the original chapters' tactics, but I just don't see Crimson Fists as siege specialists and tank hunters. Probably need to wait for the Imperial Fists supplement to get more fleshed out CT for Pedro's boys.

Since no mention has been made recently, I'm guessing the rumors about special rhino variants such as command rhinos and medical rhinos are just that, rumors. Kind of a shame, because I was looking forward to some reason to use my rhinos again. Maybe it will still show up as a vehicle upgrade (generally not something GW is going to showcase in a WD).

Finally, I'm hoping this release will put to rest the persistent (and incorrect) assumption that every codex gets a MC or large oval based model. I know it won't, but I can dream can't I?

 Yodhrin wrote:
They already make 50mm round bases for one of the Hobbit characters,

I guess that means "50 is the new Oval!". Now everyone will get a 50mm release. Next up? Ork MANZ!

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Whew! 62 pages of "Yo dawg, I heard you liked...." meme references, WORST MODEL EVA proclamations, and lectures on true scale. I'm exhausted!

Well thank God you're here to set us all straight.

(/obvious contempt)

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Not sure I believe all of the centurion rules claims from 40K radio that were previously posted. Seems an awful lot of detail without specifying the actual important stats, like saves and toughness. GW's need to make all imperial units that have 2 weapons twin linked is annoying as feth, and somewhat undercuts the usefulness of the centurions. Approximately 250 points for 3 gravcannons or TL Lascannons and 3 missile launchers. Unless they have T6 2W, and 2+ save, I'm not sure how often they will see use. The direct point comparison to Broadsides is a bit off, since 3 centurions can't throw out 36 missile shots and can't use wound-soaking drones. They also can't get interceptor and skyfire. 40K is a game of options and upgrades, and he who has the best upgrades, pays the most baseline points.

DA and WS exarchs that had double weapons the prior Ed ended up with twin linked versions so I can believe it.

M.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
GW's need to make all imperial units that have 2 weapons twin linked is annoying as feth, and somewhat undercuts the usefulness of the centurions.

I've been annoyed by that since 3rd ed came out. Why re-roll misses with BS4? Hardly worth it. Now if they were just two guns, or if 'twin-linked' just meant if you hit you got to try for a second hit - oh yeah.

Imagine if LRs actually came stock with 4 lascannons and 2 heavy bolters. Makes POTMS seem lame.

Yeah, you don't just pay for upgrades. You pay because you have access to those upgrades.

Tau pay more because the army has Markerlights. Space Marines will pay less because of less dakka and no markerlights.

Ah the heady days of second edition, when twin-linked meant if you rolled a hit you hit twice.

A note about this bit.........
The discussion was mostly about the new codex, but also about things down the pipeline. (which often appears a year out if based on previous discussions). So where this falls I am not completely sure. This being released on the site was OK'd, but I was not given a time frame for this.

via an Anonymous Source on Faeit 212
a AV 12/11/10, 11 transport capacity, skimmer tank, fast attack option with medium weaponry that can be taken as a dedicated transport by vanguard veterans

Now that is interesting, a skimmer

 Marthike wrote:

A note about this bit.........
The discussion was mostly about the new codex, but also about things down the pipeline. (which often appears a year out if based on previous discussions). So where this falls I am not completely sure. This being released on the site was OK'd, but I was not given a time frame for this.

via an Anonymous Source on Faeit 212
a AV 12/11/10, 11 transport capacity, skimmer tank, fast attack option with medium weaponry that can be taken as a dedicated transport by vanguard veterans

Now that is interesting, a skimmer

Fairly sure that's been declared false....read the stats again, it's basically a wave serpent. Probably some disgruntled marine player ticked off at the new Eldar toys,

 Carnage43 wrote:

 Marthike wrote:

A note about this bit.........
The discussion was mostly about the new codex, but also about things down the pipeline. (which often appears a year out if based on previous discussions). So where this falls I am not completely sure. This being released on the site was OK'd, but I was not given a time frame for this.

via an Anonymous Source on Faeit 212
a AV 12/11/10, 11 transport capacity, skimmer tank, fast attack option with medium weaponry that can be taken as a dedicated transport by vanguard veterans

Now that is interesting, a skimmer

Fairly sure that's been declared false....read the stats again, it's basically a wave serpent. Probably some disgruntled marine player ticked off at the new Eldar toys,

Yeah the av 12 seemed to be a bit weird.

 Carnage43 wrote:

 Marthike wrote:

A note about this bit.........
The discussion was mostly about the new codex, but also about things down the pipeline. (which often appears a year out if based on previous discussions). So where this falls I am not completely sure. This being released on the site was OK'd, but I was not given a time frame for this.

via an Anonymous Source on Faeit 212
a AV 12/11/10, 11 transport capacity, skimmer tank, fast attack option with medium weaponry that can be taken as a dedicated transport by vanguard veterans

Now that is interesting, a skimmer

Fairly sure that's been declared false....read the stats again, it's basically a wave serpent. Probably some disgruntled marine player ticked off at the new Eldar toys,

Why would I want my Vanguard Vets riding in a non-assault vehicle...

Bigger question is.. why would you want to assault in this edition period? You'll have to run over a fallen tree stump, fail your charge and get shot.

 Kirasu wrote:
Bigger question is.. why would you want to assault in this edition period? You'll have to run over a fallen tree stump, fail your charge and get shot.

There are those (myself included) that prefer melee combat over shooting.

 Kirasu wrote:
Bigger question is.. why would you want to assault in this edition period? You'll have to run over a fallen tree stump, fail your charge and get shot.

Because I've played enough games to know:

1.) how overrated overwatch is.

2.) when its worth risking a charge.

3.) to have a plan B if a charge fails.

 Kirasu wrote:
Bigger question is.. why would you want to assault in this edition period? You'll have to run over a fallen tree stump, fail your charge and get shot.

I dunno, I just had a game where my 4 meganobz and mek charged 7 dark angels bikers with a librarian, took zero wounds in the overwatch, and wiped them to the man in one turn. Still seems killey to me.

Mr.Church13 wrote:

Gonna keep spamming this, but does anyone have any idea on the Chapter tactics system?

I'm guessing it will be simialr to the Legion rules from HH. Pick a Legion for your detachment and you get its rules army wide.

My theory (hear that Faeit, theory, not rumor) is that they chapter traits will replace the warlord traits, with you picking the trait for a generic warlord, and various special characters (like Calgar, Helbrecht, Lysander) having their chapter trait as fixed.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
They already make 50mm round bases for one of the Hobbit characters,

I guess that means "50 is the new Oval!". Now everyone will get a 50mm release. Next up? Ork MANZ!

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Whew! 62 pages of "Yo dawg, I heard you liked...." meme references, WORST MODEL EVA proclamations, and lectures on true scale. I'm exhausted!

Well thank God you're here to set us all straight.

(/obvious contempt)

Glad to see someone is in charge of the thread.
(/sarcasm)

MANz on 50mm bases would make sense if they sized them like the Centurions (as the one photoshop shows, it's a good size for them) with Nobz possibly being promoted to 40mm bases. XV-8 crisis suits also seem like a good fit for 50mm, as 40mm is rather limiting on posing them

Actually, if they are 50mm bases, I may have to pick up a few for my crisis suit commander, who even in finecast, likes tipping over on a 40mm.

MajorWesJanson wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:

Gonna keep spamming this, but does anyone have any idea on the Chapter tactics system?

I'm guessing it will be simialr to the Legion rules from HH. Pick a Legion for your detachment and you get its rules army wide.

My theory (hear that Faeit, theory, not rumor) is that they chapter traits will replace the warlord traits, with you picking the trait for a generic warlord, and various special characters (like Calgar, Helbrecht, Lysander) having their chapter trait as fixed.

So marines get to pick their warlord traits. No, that won't happen unless they want the peasants to revolt. Why not let them buy psychic powers while they're at it?

Like the legions or like the current take a character system, those are possible. This edition is far too "cinematic" for people to go around choosing what they want.

Mr.Church13 wrote:

MajorWesJanson wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:

Gonna keep spamming this, but does anyone have any idea on the Chapter tactics system?

I'm guessing it will be simialr to the Legion rules from HH. Pick a Legion for your detachment and you get its rules army wide.

My theory (hear that Faeit, theory, not rumor) is that they chapter traits will replace the warlord traits, with you picking the trait for a generic warlord, and various special characters (like Calgar, Helbrecht, Lysander) having their chapter trait as fixed.

So marines get to pick their warlord traits. No, that won't happen unless they want the peasants to revolt. Why not let them buy psychic powers while they're at it?

Like the legions or like the current take a character system, those are possible. This edition is far too "cinematic" for people to go around choosing what they want.

Well it would be entirely plausible that the Codex contains several tables. You'll still have to roll Iafter choosing army type/chapter/whatever. t's not like the BRB doesn't already have three tables you pick one of.

My 2p in terms of a slight redesign of the Centurions:



Basically to get those plates out of the way, and give them normal feet, so they look like they might actually be able to walk...

I'm hoping there will be a normal crotch behind all the plating...

I thought GW wasn't releasing any more squats?
Hang on a second... *leans forward*
FAT BABY DREADNOUGHTS!?!?!? WHAT HERESY IS THIS!?!?!?!?
'Well obviously there was a gap in the sizes of Terminators and Dreadnoughts, so what we've done is made something halfway between the two sizes, which really fills a hole that the Space Marines obviously had as an army. Now they're much more like *cough* Tau I MEAN as they should be.' - quote from GW designery person
why?

Better? I feel indifferent to them as they don't fit into my Red Scorpions army and they could be fixed up with a little bit of work; don't really see what all the fuss is about. My only question is what do they do that Dreadnoughts and Terminators can't?

TomWB wrote:


I'm hoping there will be a normal crotch behind all the plating...

Very much what she said.

In other news, anyone confirm the reliability of the rules posited over on Warseer? T5, S2+, 60pts/model?

Johnson101 wrote:
Better? I feel indifferent to them as they don't fit into my Red Scorpions army and they could be fixed up with a little bit of work; don't really see what all the fuss is about. My only question is what do they do that Dreadnoughts and Terminators can't?

Drill two holes at once!

Considering that everything in the Imperium is built from pre-fab rockrete, there's a lot of need for remodelling services when ever you're trying to accomplish some non-STC buildings. All the pipes, ducts etc. need holes on the rockcrete - and hive cities have about a zillion miles of plumbing, cables etc. going on. Hence, plumbing/industrial drilling business is in big demand in the world of 40k, yet artificially restricted by the Guild of Concrete Cutters, who happen to have ties to powerful trader families and even to the High Lords of Terra. SM are pretty much the only group (outside Mechanicum) that can safely ignore the Guilds, so they can price their work lower and secure pretty much any contracts they can fit into their schedule - obviously, officially these contracts are titled as "siege engineering consulting and military capability modifications", so the Guild cannot complain about "unlicensed civilian contracting". Due to the high demand, Techmarines are under constant pressure to get the job done and move to the next one, to keep the Chapter coffins full - it's not cheap to keep all those Strike Cruisers running and patrolling, the fuel costs for zipping around the galaxy alone are, well, stellar.

So, crafting a suit capable of carrying and powering two drills instead of one makes perfect sense. The HB/Lascannon versions were created later, to keep down the inquiries why Marine Chapters happen to need a high efficiency industrial drilling rigs for..

Johnson101 wrote:
Better? I feel indifferent to them as they don't fit into my Red Scorpions army and they could be fixed up with a little bit of work; don't really see what all the fuss is about. My only question is what do they do that Dreadnoughts and Terminators can't?

With any luck they'll provide small squads of super-tough TEQ that give access to previously unavailable weapons. The grav guns or drills will be their contribution, and they'll be survivable enough to deliver them to the target. I'm quite enthusiastic now, but if the HBolter turns out to be the best weapon then they may struggle for a role.

Honestly, I've gotten to the point where I can pick and choose what I want from my collection. Terminators one day, Sternguard the next. IF - unlikely I feel - these guys fit in droppods then the assault version could make ironclads in pods look pretty tame.

 Bomster wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:

MajorWesJanson wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:

Gonna keep spamming this, but does anyone have any idea on the Chapter tactics system?

I'm guessing it will be simialr to the Legion rules from HH. Pick a Legion for your detachment and you get its rules army wide.

My theory (hear that Faeit, theory, not rumor) is that they chapter traits will replace the warlord traits, with you picking the trait for a generic warlord, and various special characters (like Calgar, Helbrecht, Lysander) having their chapter trait as fixed.

So marines get to pick their warlord traits. No, that won't happen unless they want the peasants to revolt. Why not let them buy psychic powers while they're at it?

Like the legions or like the current take a character system, those are possible. This edition is far too "cinematic" for people to go around choosing what they want.

Well it would be entirely plausible that the Codex contains several tables. You'll still have to roll Iafter choosing army type/chapter/whatever. t's not like the BRB doesn't already have three tables you pick one of.

I actually see this as plausible (I know it's atheory, but still).

Think of it like the 'Son's of the Primarch' in Apoc, If you take them you can't roll on a finest hour table. So if you take a Chapter Tactic, you can't roll on a Warlord table.

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Actually, if they are 50mm bases, I may have to pick up a few for my crisis suit commander, who even in finecast, likes tipping over on a 40mm.

Tell me about it! I ended up cutting off the scenic pieces and attaching him to base with a flying post - looks much better!

I've very much in two minds about this release. Only having to buy one codex for both my regular marines and BTs that's pretty good on the other hand I love the BTs because they are so different to a codex chapter so I'm not sure how well they will survive this transition. The hunter looks pretty good but that twin turret thing is very silly. Plastic Sternguard and Vanguard look very good. However then there's the Centurions I really don't like the models as they are but I can see the potential for converting them into some sort of mini dread although that would take a lot of work. Ultimately the rules will determine if I'm interested in them or not.

I am sitting here desperately trying to come up with ways that those centurion models might be salvaged.

Back when GK's came out I was able to draft up a pretty good plan (satisfactory to me anyway) for how to fix up a non-stupid Dreadknight, but these guys are really throwing me for a loop. There's not too many marine models I dislike or find unworkable, but the Centurions are definitely in the running.

Also, for those that think everyone here is just complaining for no reason, I'm sorry. I (honest-to-goodness) think those models are ugly. I'm not sure what it is, but nothing about them makes me excited for the new book or seeing them across the table from me.

Here a better pic of the Stalker tank making the rounds:


Oh, and according to Natfka, the Wave Serpent didn't make it into the SM Codex