Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 27-08-2013 - Leaked White Dwarf images added]

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**tomjoad**

ClockworkZion wrote:
tomjoad wrote:
Obviously you can counts-as. Not being able to counts-as the SCs would be insane and only jerks would try to enforce such a rule. I've noticed some confusing wording in some of 40K radio's answers, and I don't know what they actually meant by this, but I'm positive it'll be cleared up.

Homebrew count-as sure, I mean Count-As in other armies. Like a Count-As Vulkan in an Iron Hands army.

Not being able to do that has been the rumor all week, so, no, Vulkan cannot go in an army with the IH CT rules according to current rumors.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Damn, so now sternguards with combi-weapons are now 2 points more, sucks...

Yeah, kind of annoying, but since I only ran 4-5 combi weapons in a full squad, I come out about even. People who ran 10 combis in a 10 man squad may be suffering a tad though. Especially now that you can fit Pedro in a pod with them anymore.

I think the difference will be now, instead of giving all of them combi-weapons, you'll only it to some ot them, say two or three for every 5 you take.

**DogofWar1**

I hope when they say razorbacks went up 5 points they mean that the base cost went up 5 while upgrades went down 5, and not that the top possible cost went up 5 points.

I also wonder if drop pods will follow the costs found in DA, namely the deathwind launcher costs.

The bump in combi-weapon costs is annoying, I'd have liked it to stay 5 pts, but then again, I'll likely be playing CF (IF) mainly, which means tank hunter Devs, which means I need fewer of those combi-weapons for can opening, and can probably just run Sternguard naked.

Also, the fact that you can take a special weapon at 5 tacticals means I can do the 5 man, Meltagun + combi-melta in a drop pod thing. Between that and tank hunter devs I probably won't be putting many combi-weapons on my sternguard.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

DogofWar1 wrote:
I hope when they say razorbacks went up 5 points they mean that the base cost went up 5 while upgrades went down 5, and not that the top possible cost went up 5 points.

I also wonder if drop pods will follow the costs found in DA, namely the deathwind launcher costs.

I'm assuming its like the DA razor: the base cost is 5 points more but all the options are 10 pts less, so you're saving 5 points if you upgrade the heavy bolters.

**MajorWesJanson**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
MajorWesJanson wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Damn, so now sternguards with combi-weapons are now 2 points more, sucks...

Yeah, kind of annoying, but since I only ran 4-5 combi weapons in a full squad, I come out about even. People who ran 10 combis in a 10 man squad may be suffering a tad though. Especially now that you can fit Pedro in a pod with them anymore.

I think the difference will be now, instead of giving all of them combi-weapons, you'll only it to some ot them, say two or three for every 5 you take.

6 Combi-weapons in a 10 man squad works out to cost the same as 6 with combis in the old book. I think. Take more and they get more expensive.

**ClockworkZion**

tomjoad wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
tomjoad wrote:
Obviously you can counts-as. Not being able to counts-as the SCs would be insane and only jerks would try to enforce such a rule. I've noticed some confusing wording in some of 40K radio's answers, and I don't know what they actually meant by this, but I'm positive it'll be cleared up.

Homebrew count-as sure, I mean Count-As in other armies. Like a Count-As Vulkan in an Iron Hands army.

Not being able to do that has been the rumor all week, so, no, Vulkan cannot go in an army with the IH CT rules according to current rumors.

Oh I know, that's why I asked for clarification. This book is really starting to feel like it's several different books who use the same basic equipment and troop selection but have different HQs.

More from 40k Radio:

Q: Is there any way to assault from vehicles besides assault ramps on land raiders and stormravens?
A: The Land Speeder Storm.

Q: How do Successor Chapters work exactly?
A: This will be covered on the 1 Sept show. The answer is really long and it's easier to just explain it verbally than type it out.

Q: If you have two different chapters that use the same chapter tactic, can they ally to each other?
A: This will als be covered on the 1 Sept show.

Q: How do Camo Cloaks work?
A: +1 to cover, or 6+ cover if not in cover

Q: Can any of the HQs get Camo Cloaks?
A: No

Q: Is there a way to get Eternal Warrior?
A: Yes (will be covered in show (Zion's Speculation: It's a Relic))

Q: Can any of the HQs buy any special rules?
A: No

Q: Do the HQs still have access to Hellfire rounds?
A: No

Q: Can we get a rundown on what Grav Weapons will cost?
A: Grav will be on the show.

Q: In 5th Edition you were encouraged to use SCs as "Count-As" special characters to give you some new/interesting combinations. Is there anything in the new book that allows you to do this?
A: You can no longer do that due to Chapter Tactics.

Q: Just to confirm, this means the Camo Cloaks and the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic stack, right? +2 to their cover saves for having both?
A: They do stack, but there is a caveat to the Raven Guard rule that will be covered on the show. All Chapter Tactics will be covered on the show.

Q: BT High Marshal (Chapter Master equivalent?) Helbrecht has no Orbital Bombardment, but BT can take a "regular" Chapter Master and get the OB from him?
A: Correct, Helbrecht does not have it, but regular Chapter Masters do.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Pyriel- wrote:
The ability to move through foliage without getting your horns caught on long hanging branches.

Chaos might get an advantage in tight tunnels though.

Only when charging.

**MajorWesJanson**

Chapter tactics are sounding more complicated than they first appeared. Caveats on the Imperial Fists and Raven Guard ones, Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists not sharing the same trait for character purposes...

Glad my chapter is fully homebrew, as I have already converted a number of SCs, including Telion, Calgar, Pedro, and Dorn.

**ClockworkZion**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Chapter tactics are sounding more complicated than they first appeared. Caveats on the Imperial Fists and Raven Guard ones, Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists not sharing the same trait for character purposes...

Glad my chapter is fully homebrew, as I have already converted a number of SCs, including Telion, Calgar, Pedro, and Dorn.

I agree, the Chapter Tactics are more complicated than they first seemed, and to add to it, the wide restrictions on different SCs to specific armies means that the Vanilla book is the first to flat out restrict mixing SCs. It looks like there is a lot of work put in to prevent abuse of the new system.

**Nosebiter**

Well then you have a problem. 1 progenitor chapter has to be chosen, so that rules out a few of the chars you list as they come from different chapters.....

**MajorWesJanson**

Nosebiter wrote:
Well then you have a problem. 1 progenitor chapter has to be chosen, so that rules out a few of the chars you list as they come from different chapters.....

True, if I wanted to play them all in one list. But while my homebrew chapter is an IH successor in my personal fluff, it is not listed in the codex as having a set progenitor, and thus should fall under "unknown progenitor" and I just pick.

**ClockworkZion**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Nosebiter wrote:
Well then you have a problem. 1 progenitor chapter has to be chosen, so that rules out a few of the chars you list as they come from different chapters.....

True, if I wanted to play them all in one list. But while my homebrew chapter is an IH successor in my personal fluff, it is not listed in the codex as having a set progenitor, and thus should fall under "unknown progenitor" and I just pick.

Technically you'd be an IH Successor and use their rules then. I'm sure people would be reasonable about letting you be more flexible with it though.

**Exergy**

ClockworkZion wrote:
From 40k Radio:
Q: Can Pedro and Lysander be in the same army without using allies?
A: No (CF is one chapter, IF is another)

Strange, so ultras get 3 CT, 5 SC while each other Chapters gets 1CT and 0-1 SC
I dont know how people are going to like this.
I mean an Iyanden supplement can take Eldrad
Black Legion can take Kharn

ClockworkZion wrote:

Q: How many points cost a grav-gun as special weapon on a tac squad?
A: 15 points.

**ClockworkZion**

This one just got answered:

Q: To confirm then, successor chapters who use the same Chapter Tactics as their Parent Chapters can't use the SC of their parent chapter, even as a "Count-As"?
A: Can't use "Count-As" because those are specific to the parent chapter.

This likely applies to homebrew as well.

We also got this:

Q: Define caveat in terms of Chapters. What are the caveats? Will you go over every chapter?
A: You have not been given all the details of the CT. We're saving that for the show. We weill cover all the CT in detail.

So they've been holding out on us on some info that may make or break how these rules work.

**MajorWesJanson**

ClockworkZion wrote:
MajorWesJanson wrote:
Nosebiter wrote:
Well then you have a problem. 1 progenitor chapter has to be chosen, so that rules out a few of the chars you list as they come from different chapters.....

True, if I wanted to play them all in one list. But while my homebrew chapter is an IH successor in my personal fluff, it is not listed in the codex as having a set progenitor, and thus should fall under "unknown progenitor" and I just pick.

Technically you'd be an IH Successor and use their rules then. I'm sure people would be reasonable about letting you be more flexible with it though.

Yeah, and it really is no different from codex hopping with the same models (well mostly, I go for wsywyg and have various chapter specific models painted up as Foehammers that I use when I am using the appropriate codex), just within the same book. I can see GW limiting characters to armies with a certain chapter tactic, but not limiting say ultramarines characters to only armies that are painted as ultramarines. That would hurt sales, I would think.

**Exergy**

ClockworkZion wrote:
This one just got answered:

Q: To confirm then, successor chapters who use the same Chapter Tactics as their Parent Chapters can't use the SC of their parent chapter, even as a "Count-As"?
A: Can't use "Count-As" because those are specific to the parent chapter.

This likely applies to homebrew as well.

What Chapter are you running?
Ultramarines with Calgar.
They are green?
Yeah, this company of the Ultramarines painted their armor green to fight in a campain against Tyranids that seek out the color blue.
Unless there is a rule "Marius Calgar MUST be pained Blue" I dont think you can stop it.

**doc1234**

ClockworkZion wrote:
MajorWesJanson wrote:
Nosebiter wrote:
Well then you have a problem. 1 progenitor chapter has to be chosen, so that rules out a few of the chars you list as they come from different chapters.....

True, if I wanted to play them all in one list. But while my homebrew chapter is an IH successor in my personal fluff, it is not listed in the codex as having a set progenitor, and thus should fall under "unknown progenitor" and I just pick.

Technically you'd be an IH Successor and use their rules then. I'm sure people would be reasonable about letting you be more flexible with it though.

How many people are really asking about the fluff to your chapter over the table? As got mentioned a ways back in this thread, as long as the other guy knows what CT rules you're using i doubt he cares what your proginator chapter is, same as you likely don't care what hive fleet he's using.

**tomjoad**

I can't believe I'm actually going to listen to the next episode of 40K Radio...

**lord_blackfang**

tomjoad wrote:
I can't believe I'm actually going to listen to the next episode of 40K Radio...

Yeah, tell me about it

**MajorWesJanson**

Exergy wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
This one just got answered:

Q: To confirm then, successor chapters who use the same Chapter Tactics as their Parent Chapters can't use the SC of their parent chapter, even as a "Count-As"?
A: Can't use "Count-As" because those are specific to the parent chapter.

This likely applies to homebrew as well.

What Chapter are you running?

Ultramarines with Calgar.

They are green?

Yeah, this company of the Ultramarines painted their armor green to fight in a campain against Tyranids that seek out the color blue.

Unless there is a rule "Marius Calgar MUST be pained Blue" I dont think you can stop it.

Basically this. I can see GW limiting characters to certain chapter tactics, but limiting them based on the paint scheme is not only overly restrictive, especially compared to every other codex so far, but is both essentially unenforceable and would hurt sales of said special characters from anyone who runs a homebrew or successor.

**ClockworkZion**

Exergy wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
This one just got answered:

Q: To confirm then, successor chapters who use the same Chapter Tactics as their Parent Chapters can't use the SC of their parent chapter, even as a "Count-As"?
A: Can't use "Count-As" because those are specific to the parent chapter.

This likely applies to homebrew as well.

What Chapter are you running?

Ultramarines with Calgar.

They are green?

Yeah, this company of the Ultramarines painted their armor green to fight in a campain against Tyranids that seek out the color blue.

Unless there is a rule "Marius Calgar MUST be pained Blue" I dont think you can stop it.

Well if they're Green Ultramarines with Sons of Medusa shoulder pads it might be an issue. I don't know. I'm trying to squeeze some info out of them on this but they're staying rather mum of the whole thing, likely so we actually bother to listen to their show.

**tomjoad**

I don't blame them for trying to entice us to listen. Having Romeo yammering in my headphones is not my idea of a pleasant afternoon...just this once, though...

**Pyriel-**

Centurian with Lascannon is cheaper than a T5 Oblitorator(who lacks ATSKNF, isnt twin linked) and comes with a hurricane bolter that can become a missile launcher and can get split fire and nightfighting. They might be good.

Dunno, centurions dont get all other weapon options (also dont get forced to change) and no 5++ either.

**ClockworkZion**

tomjoad wrote:
I don't blame them for trying to entice us to listen. Having Romeo yammering in my headphones is not my idea of a pleasant afternoon...just this once, though...

I'll be trying to transfer all they say into information I can put online so even if people don't listen it'll still be available.

**Yodhrin**

Wait wait wait, so not only are SC's limited to a particular Chapter Tactics, but they are further limited specifically to the army named in that variation on the Tactics only? So for example, -only- Ultramarines can take Calgar or Telion, nobody else, not even named Ultramarine successors or homebrews that choose to use Chapter Tactics(Ultramarines)?

If so, sorry, but that's hilarious. Can't wait to see the people telling IH and others to suck it up RAEGing because their personal favourite Ultras successor doesn't get their not-SCs either

**ClockworkZion**

Here's the next group of answers:

Q: Have Razorback weapon upgrades gotten cheaper, more expensive or stayed the same?
A: Some went down.

Q: How much do Relic Blades cost for Honor Guard?
A: 10 points.

Q: You mentioned that the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics have a caveat. Do all the Chapter Tactics have special caveats in how they can be used?
A: No, there are other rules for RG we didn't mention.

Q: Do these caveats require certain minumum requirements of units or wargear?
A: No.

Q: Are the Drop Pods priced like the DA ones (to include upgrades)?
A: Similiar.

Q: When making an army, are you required to take a chapter trait?
A: Yes.

Q: Is the Exorcists Chapter covered in the list of different Marine chapters/successors in the book?
A: Yes, there is a small blurb, but the do not have a parent chapter.

**Citizen Luka**

tomjoad wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
tomjoad wrote:
Obviously you can counts-as. Not being able to counts-as the SCs would be insane and only jerks would try to enforce such a rule. I've noticed some confusing wording in some of 40K radio's answers, and I don't know what they actually meant by this, but I'm positive it'll be cleared up.

Homebrew count-as sure, I mean Count-As in other armies. Like a Count-As Vulkan in an Iron Hands army.

Not being able to do that has been the rumor all week, so, no, Vulkan cannot go in an army with the IH CT rules according to current rumors.

1. Buy official Vulkan model.
2. Paint black and silver.
3. Use as iron hands captain with relic blade, artificer armour and combi flamer.
4. Next week. Use same model AS Vulkan with salamander traits.
5. And the peasants rejoiced!

**ClockworkZion**

And more:

Q: Are any of these caveats negative things (like the old 4th edition flaws)?
A: No. The caveat is we have not revealed all the abilities for some chapters.

Q: Is there any clue you can give us on the nature of these caveats?
A: There are many layers to the CTs (no negatives).

Q: Did the points cost change for Power Weapons?
A: Generally the same, per units choices.

Q: Did the points cost change for Power Fists?
A: PF same.

Q: How much do Crusader Squads pay for Power Weapons?
A: 15.

Q: Can the Initiate in a Crusader Squad take a Power Fist?
A: Yes at 25 points.

Q: How does the limit for the extra power weapon in the Crusader squad work. Is it just 1 Initiate or is it 1 per X number of models in the squad?
A: 1 Initiate and then upgrade one to Sword Brother and you can get another.

I am taking any questions people have to get asked. Though if they've already been asked I'll just post the answers instead.

**SickSix**

So GW is now trying to kill off home-brew chapters?

I shouldn't be surprised, but I am a little.

**xruslanx**

there's no way that the new codex will explicitly state that you need the right colour and insignia in order to take special charecters. That would be catastrophically stupid.