Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 27-08-2013 - Leaked White Dwarf images added]

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**MajorWesJanson**

Yodhrin wrote:
Aerethan wrote:
Nosebiter wrote:
Jeez, talk about limiting what SC's you can take. So if i want Kantor i HAVE to use crimson fists? Not even imperial fists? And diy chapters get nada SC's?

Heaven forbid people do counts as armies?

I run my Red Hunters using Salamanders rules and Vulkan. Same rules, different paint scheme and more stylized models, but everything is still WYSIWYG.

And anyone who wants to throw a fit about me doing that can happily opt to not play against me.

Boo hoo if people can't min max the rules to allow them to run multiple SC's or mix and match SC's and Tactics as they want. Pick a team and roll with it. If anything, DIY chapters have the versatility of being ANY successor chapter if you write the fluff for it and convert up SC's for it.

/rant

On to the 40k Radio notes:
Why would they make tanks which are subpar at the moment more expensive?

And while I see the logic in it, restricting AA tanks to ONLY AA makes them a gamble if you come across someone who isn't running a flyer for some reason(rare in the current game it would seem, but a risk nonetheless).

I do find the Heavy weapons in 5 man units interesting, and could make for some fun combos.

The book needs to drop already so that I can write up a new list and finalize my models. This leak has put my entire army on hold until I find out what is worth keeping.

I hope you enjoyed your ride on that high horse mate, because even the Proper Righteous and Pure way of playing that you favour is humped - SCs are limited to their chapter of origin only. No successors, no counts-as - you want an SC? Get painting, 'cause you'll need a new army.

Yes, GW will be doing their best to kill off sales of SC models to counts-as and sucessor players by banning their use with an unenforceable limitation based on the color paint a model has. I guess that means that grey plastic models are not ultramarines, so no SCs for them until they paint their force. Though that last may not be a negative.

**AlmightyWalrus**

ClockworkZion wrote:

Q: Is there a way to get Eternal Warrior?
A: Yes (will be covered in show (Zion's Speculation: It's a Relic))

Yay! The legacy of the Adamantine Mantle Marshal lives on!

Rather iffy on whether Helbrecht and Grimaldus will be of use, depends on their cost I guess. Helbrecht no longer blocking an Adamantine Mantle from being in the army will do wonders for his playability, as will his special rule. I'm just hoping he doesn't go up in cost.

**Yodhrin**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:
Aerethan wrote:
Nosebiter wrote:
Jeez, talk about limiting what SC's you can take. So if i want Kantor i HAVE to use crimson fists? Not even imperial fists? And diy chapters get nada SC's?

Heaven forbid people do counts as armies?

I run my Red Hunters using Salamanders rules and Vulkan. Same rules, different paint scheme and more stylized models, but everything is still WYSIWYG.

And anyone who wants to throw a fit about me doing that can happily opt to not play against me.

Boo hoo if people can't min max the rules to allow them to run multiple SC's or mix and match SC's and Tactics as they want. Pick a team and roll with it. If anything, DIY chapters have the versatility of being ANY successor chapter if you write the fluff for it and convert up SC's for it.

/rant

On to the 40k Radio notes:
Why would they make tanks which are subpar at the moment more expensive?

And while I see the logic in it, restricting AA tanks to ONLY AA makes them a gamble if you come across someone who isn't running a flyer for some reason(rare in the current game it would seem, but a risk nonetheless).

I do find the Heavy weapons in 5 man units interesting, and could make for some fun combos.

The book needs to drop already so that I can write up a new list and finalize my models. This leak has put my entire army on hold until I find out what is worth keeping.

I hope you enjoyed your ride on that high horse mate, because even the Proper Righteous and Pure way of playing that you favour is humped - SCs are limited to their chapter of origin only. No successors, no counts-as - you want an SC? Get painting, 'cause you'll need a new army.

Yes, GW will be doing their best to kill off sales of SC models to counts-as and sucessor players by banning their use with an unenforceable limitation based on the color paint a model has. I guess that means that grey plastic models are not ultramarines, so no SCs for them until they paint their force. Though that last may not be a negative.

I don't know why the hell everyone is jumping on me about this, I'm just going by the rumour roundup Zion posted, and I'm against any limitations on counts-as at all, hence the high horse comment addressed at Aerethan.

**Puscifer**

I think on Sep 1, we are going to get news on the CT that will either make or break this release.

I think each CT is going to have a weakness, but also an added bonus.

This could be something like 0-1 if each FA choice for Sally and IH and for a bonus... make take a Ven. Dread as a Warlord for IH.

Hurry up Sept 1.

**Vain**

Yodhrin wrote:
I don't know why the hell everyone is jumping on me about this, I'm just going by the rumour roundup Zion posted, and I'm against any limitations on counts-as at all, hence the high horse comment addressed at Aerethan.

I think it might be that most people are reading it as "You can only take Chapter Tactics and Special Characters from the same Chapter." and taking from it that you can't take Vulkan with Ultramarine CTs.

From your post it looks like you are taking it as "You can only take Chapter Tactics and Special Characters if your army is painted as the appropriate Chapter" which is what is getting people's panties in a twist. That definitely wouldnt work for a lot of Homebrew chapters or themed armies like my Deathwatch force.

Personally I would love to mix-n-match, but the main reason I want it (Lysander 4 Wounds, EW, 2+, 3++ combined with IH CT to get IWND and a FNP 6+) is probably an example of the main reason why this rule is in place.

**Puscifer**

But you can get an IWND 4W monster with EW.

There is an EW item according to 40k radio.

I can see how nasty that will be. Sounds awesome.

**mattyrm**

xruslanx wrote:
there's no way that the new codex will explicitly state that you need the right colour and insignia in order to take special charecters. That would be catastrophically stupid.

One would assume so, but GW have occasionally done some really stupid gak right?

**Polecat**

Puscifer wrote:
But you can get an IWND 4W monster with EW.

There is an EW item according to 40k radio.

I can see how nasty that will be. Sounds awesome.

It might sound nasty, but if it ends up costing tons of points it won't be worth it for competitive builds.

**MajorWesJanson**

Vain wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:
I don't know why the hell everyone is jumping on me about this, I'm just going by the rumour roundup Zion posted, and I'm against any limitations on counts-as at all, hence the high horse comment addressed at Aerethan.

I think it might be that most people are reading it as "You can only take Chapter Tactics and Special Characters from the same Chapter." and taking from it that you can't take Vulkan with Ultramarine CTs.

From your post it looks like you are taking it as "You can only take Chapter Tactics and Special Characters if your army is painted as the appropriate Chapter" which is what is getting people's panties in a twist. That definitely wouldnt work for a lot of Homebrew chapters or themed armies like my Deathwatch force.

Personally I would love to mix-n-match, but the main reason I want it (Lysander 4 Wounds, EW, 2+, 3++ combined with IH CT to get IWND and a FNP 6+) is probably an example of the main reason why this rule is in place.

This, and you may have been going for sarcasm, but it came across as sort of snide instead. Tone on the interwebs and all that. If you meant it as sarcasm, then apologies.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Polecat wrote:
Puscifer wrote:
But you can get an IWND 4W monster with EW.

There is an EW item according to 40k radio.

I can see how nasty that will be. Sounds awesome.

It might sound nasty, but if it ends up costing tons of points it won't be worth it for competitive builds.

If the EW item is the Stormshield as many suspect, and if it still gives you a 3++, I can easily see it costing 65pts (I believe they said thats how much the most expensive relic will cost.)

**MajorWesJanson**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Polecat wrote:
Puscifer wrote:
But you can get an IWND 4W monster with EW.

There is an EW item according to 40k radio.

I can see how nasty that will be. Sounds awesome.

It might sound nasty, but if it ends up costing tons of points it won't be worth it for competitive builds.

If the EW item is the Stormshield as many suspect, and if it still gives you a 3++, I can easily see it costing 65pts (I believe they said thats how much the most expensive relic will cost.)

It could also be the armor- Artificer that grants EW would also make sense for the 65 point relic.

**daisho**

Polecat wrote:
Puscifer wrote:
But you can get an IWND 4W monster with EW.

There is an EW item according to 40k radio.

I can see how nasty that will be. Sounds awesome.

It might sound nasty, but if it ends up costing tons of points it won't be worth it for competitive builds.

This is something that bothers me the most ... why can't we buy things from the armory for special characters. Why do I have to endure a Storm Bolter on Draigo - just let them also take Wargear as usual, of course this could result in very strong combos - but then make those choices more expensive for them!?

Yes, a lot of choices are not very competitive - but then just balance out point costs, it's not that it is impossible - they are just lazy.

**Daba**

I think it's pretty intended that special characters don't get wargear choices from their nature.

Firstly they would step on the toes of the customisable 'generic' characters.

Secondly, in 2nd edition they could take wargear and it was pretty crazy with the combos you had with their wargear choice and unique character special rules in some cases.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

daisho wrote:
Polecat wrote:
Puscifer wrote:
But you can get an IWND 4W monster with EW.

There is an EW item according to 40k radio.

I can see how nasty that will be. Sounds awesome.

It might sound nasty, but if it ends up costing tons of points it won't be worth it for competitive builds.

This is something that bothers me the most ... why can't we buy things from the armory for special characters. Why do I have to endure a Storm Bolter on Draigo - just let them also take Wargear as usual, of course this could result in very strong combos - but then make those choices more expensive for them!?

Yes, a lot of choices are not very competitive - but then just balance out point costs, it's not that it is impossible - they are just lazy.

Because it would make SCs ridiculously op. Imagine if someone gave Draigo a Nemesis Warding Stave or if you could give Mephiston a Storm Shield. Yes, it would probably be like 60, maybe even 100 points to do so but it would make them all-but-unkillable so many people would still take them. Plus the whole point about SCs is that they're supposed to be unique with their gear since it often figures into their fluff (the Titansword, Yriel's spear, etc.)

**tvih**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Rather iffy on whether Helbrecht and Grimaldus will be of use, depends on their cost I guess. Helbrecht no longer blocking an Adamantine Mantle from being in the army will do wonders for his playability, as will his special rule. I'm just hoping he doesn't go up in cost.

40k Radio's said that Helbrecht will be 185, so up 10 points.

As for the EW thing it's indeed great news, though I'm also worried - it's a C:SM relic, and if/when BT gets a supplement, we might lose access to it the same way the Black Legion supplement can't take an Axe of Blinding Fury, for example. That'd suck, unless of course we got a different way of getting EW instead.

**Kangodo**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Yes, GW will be doing their best to kill off sales of SC models to counts-as and sucessor players by banning their use with an unenforceable limitation based on the color paint a model has. I guess that means that grey plastic models are not ultramarines, so no SCs for them until they paint their force. Though that last may not be a negative.

Exactly.
It's far more likely that 40k-radio used a bad wording, which is understandable because I still don't understand the question:

Q: In 5th Edition you were encouraged to use SCs as "Count-As" special characters to give you some new/interesting combinations. Is there anything in the new book that allows you to do this?
A: You can no longer do that due to Chapter Tactics.

The entire point of "count-as" is that you pick a model and use it as a model that it isn't intended for.
So how can count-as ever be in the codex?

It will probably go like this:
1. Pick a Chapter you want to play as.
2. Pick a Trait you want to use (most armies have 1, but UM have three)
3. Pick the models that are allowed in the Chapter, only take unique characters that are allowed in that Chapter.

**AlmightyWalrus**

tvih wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Rather iffy on whether Helbrecht and Grimaldus will be of use, depends on their cost I guess. Helbrecht no longer blocking an Adamantine Mantle from being in the army will do wonders for his playability, as will his special rule. I'm just hoping he doesn't go up in cost.

40k Radio's said that Helbrecht will be 185, so up 10 points.

Hey, that might actually make him playable! He's not too bad as is, with 2+/4++/6+++ and 4 wounds and up to 8 attacks on the charge, plus the combi-melta, the issue is that he blocks the Adamantine Mantle. With a small points increase and a support rule he might actually be pretty good. Granting that fleet reroll on a Crusader blob while acting as a pseudo-Chaplain (while being much harder to kill) seems rather interesting. At least my Helbrecht model will get a few games in.

**daisho**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Because it would make SCs ridiculously op. Imagine if someone gave Draigo a Nemesis Warding Stave or if you could give Mephiston a Storm Shield. Yes, it would probably be like 60, maybe even 100 points to do so but it would make them all-but-unkillable so many people would still take them. Plus the whole point about SCs is that they're supposed to be unique with their gear since it often figures into their fluff (the Titansword, Yriel's spear, etc.)

Then up the cost, one of the main reason why we take non-SC is because they are usually cheaper.
Would you really take a Nemesis Warding Stave with Draigo? That guy already costs more than a Land Raider.
If a unit decision is a no-brainer, then the chance is high that it's underpriced for what it does in relation to other choices.

I have no problem with Characters being near-immortal machines, I could imagine a Character like Celestine with 2+/2++ armour, 4 Wounds, Eternal Warrior, Toughness 5 ... if it costs as much as half an army, what is the problem? It can still die through a hundred lasgun shots ...

There is only a problem when a model costs too much or too less so it's either a no-brainer OR a lol-I-will-never-take-that

**ArbitorIan**

Any chance the OP could keep the first post updated?

This thread is 137 pages long and it seems, from a glance, that there are,already pretty strong rumours about Chapter Tactics, special rules, etc etc somewhere within the thread. Why aren't these in the OP, as is normal for a rumours thread?

**HoverBoy**

Because it isn't Kroothawk running this one.

**Redemption**

ArbitorIan wrote:Any chance the OP could keep the first post updated?

This thread is 137 pages long and it seems, from a glance, that there are,already pretty strong rumours about Chapter Tactics, special rules, etc etc somewhere within the thread. Why aren't these in the OP, as is normal for a rumours thread?

I was on a holiday to Italy, without internet access. Added the Q&A to the first post.

**xruslanx**

daisho wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Because it would make SCs ridiculously op. Imagine if someone gave Draigo a Nemesis Warding Stave or if you could give Mephiston a Storm Shield. Yes, it would probably be like 60, maybe even 100 points to do so but it would make them all-but-unkillable so many people would still take them. Plus the whole point about SCs is that they're supposed to be unique with their gear since it often figures into their fluff (the Titansword, Yriel's spear, etc.)

Then up the cost, one of the main reason why we take non-SC is because they are usually cheaper.
Would you really take a Nemesis Warding Stave with Draigo? That guy already costs more than a Land Raider.
If a unit decision is a no-brainer, then the chance is high that it's underpriced for what it does in relation to other choices.

I have no problem with Characters being near-immortal machines, I could imagine a Character like Celestine with 2+/2++ armour, 4 Wounds, Eternal Warrior, Toughness 5 ... if it costs as much as half an army, what is the problem? It can still die through a hundred lasgun shots ...

There is only a problem when a model costs too much or too less so it's either a no-brainer OR a lol-I-will-never-take-that

never played against sob, but from the stats you posted 100 lasgun shots certainly would not kill celestine. 100 shots gets you 50 hits, 8 wounds, 1.3 after saves. Try 300 lasgun shots, aka more than you could possibly get off in an entire game.

**AlmightyWalrus**

xruslanx wrote:
daisho wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Because it would make SCs ridiculously op. Imagine if someone gave Draigo a Nemesis Warding Stave or if you could give Mephiston a Storm Shield. Yes, it would probably be like 60, maybe even 100 points to do so but it would make them all-but-unkillable so many people would still take them. Plus the whole point about SCs is that they're supposed to be unique with their gear since it often figures into their fluff (the Titansword, Yriel's spear, etc.)

Then up the cost, one of the main reason why we take non-SC is because they are usually cheaper.
Would you really take a Nemesis Warding Stave with Draigo? That guy already costs more than a Land Raider.
If a unit decision is a no-brainer, then the chance is high that it's underpriced for what it does in relation to other choices.

I have no problem with Characters being near-immortal machines, I could imagine a Character like Celestine with 2+/2++ armour, 4 Wounds, Eternal Warrior, Toughness 5 ... if it costs as much as half an army, what is the problem? It can still die through a hundred lasgun shots ...

There is only a problem when a model costs too much or too less so it's either a no-brainer OR a lol-I-will-never-take-that

never played against sob, but from the stats you posted 100 lasgun shots certainly would not kill celestine. 100 shots gets you 50 hits, 8 wounds, 1.3 after saves. Try 300 lasgun shots, aka more than you could possibly get off in an entire game.

And then she stands up again...

EDIT: Back on topic, 25 points for a Power Fist with 1A? Are they out of their friggin' minds? The increase to 15 points for a Power Weapon on a schmuck is bad enough, but the Fist cost is just... wow.

**Exergy**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Polecat wrote:
Puscifer wrote:
But you can get an IWND 4W monster with EW.

There is an EW item according to 40k radio.

I can see how nasty that will be. Sounds awesome.

It might sound nasty, but if it ends up costing tons of points it won't be worth it for competitive builds.

If the EW item is the Stormshield as many suspect, and if it still gives you a 3++, I can easily see it costing 65pts (I believe they said thats how much the most expensive relic will cost.)

It could also be the armor- Artificer that grants EW would also make sense for the 65 point relic.

isnt the BL artifact that gives EW more than that?

**Kroothawk**

HoverBoy wrote:
Because it isn't Kroothawk running this one.

Actually I made the mods add the pics.
If someone reposts all relevant links here (or PMs them to me, I write up something for the first post.
I only have the summary by a blog, but as Xeno player haven't followed or evaluated all the other rumours.
E.g. does anyone have the original radio link?

**Exergy**

Kangodo wrote:

2. Pick a Trait you want to use (most armies have 1, but UM have three)

I had a thought. Doesn't it seem weird that the Ultras have one of three CT? Isn't it also weird that one is significant better than the others. Further if you go and did up where the 3 are rumored doesnt the language seem a little weird. (Rerolling all 1s and twinlinking tacticals is so much better than rerolling 1s on bolters or rerolling snap shots)

What IF, the Ultra Chapter Tactic is random, where you have to roll at the start of the game and get 1-2 Tactical, 3-4 Assault, 5-6 Devistator? That seems to make a lot more sense to me(although I just made it up, so it probably isn't) Perhaps one of the Ultra special characters lets you pick, but even though I just made this up, I wouldnt be surprised to see a random table.

**AlmightyWalrus**

It'd certainly be in line with other rules in the other 6th edition Codices.

**Redemption**

Kroothawk wrote:
HoverBoy wrote:
Because it isn't Kroothawk running this one.

Actually I made the mods add the pics.
If someone reposts all relevant links here (or PMs them to me, I write up something for the first post.
I only have the summary by a blog, but as Xeno player haven't followed or evaluated all the other rumours.
E.g. does anyone have the original radio link?

Thanks for adding the pictures in my absence.

The Q&A link is already added, it's the 40k Radio Facebook page where the Q&A was held in the comments. If you open the spoiler you get all the questions that have been answered there so you don't have to piece together hundreds of Facebook comments.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Another thing that's been bugging me, they keep saying that the Emperor's Champion is going to be a beast in Challenges, but 2 attacks base with an AP2 Relic Blade is pretty awful. Here's hoping that he's got more rules they haven't mentioned yet.

**Leth**

Didnt they also say he re-rolls hits or something like that?

Re-roll hits and Str 6 ap 2 seems like a pretty beastly challenge fighter.