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2013/08/23 06:26:24
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Nocturnus wrote: Until I have the codex in my hands, I refuse to give into the "Chicken Little" syndrome (The sky is falling!). I also don't get why people are pissed about not being able to mix SC. First off, it reeks of WAAC. Second, and maybe more important, I find SC are simply too expensive to field with any regularity. Just my two cents, of course.
Read back a few.pages and you'll find my postion scattered there.
First, I tip my hat to you for spending the time, money, effort, etc. to make your army unique. As a long time Chaos player (since Slaves to Darkness for Rogue Trader) I know all too well the frustration that occurs when GW makes certain models/units obsolete. Chaos codex 3.5 is still the best Chaos book. When they released the 4th ed book, my heavily converted Nurgle terminators (for example) were no longer usable. However, if you NEED those SC to make your army work, I think there's another problem. Just my two cents, of course. Cheers.
2013/08/23 06:27:45
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Eh, that was ten thousand years ago. Live in the now. Why you gotta bring up old stuff?
Because it's not that it's ten thousand years ago, it's that they've been doing it for ten thousand years
The Edict of Nikea was rescinded. Hence why everyone has Librarians again.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Eh, that was ten thousand years ago. Live in the now. Why you gotta bring up old stuff?
Because it's not that it's ten thousand years ago, it's that they've been doing it for ten thousand years
The Edict of Nikea was rescinded. Hence why everyone has Librarians again.
Not really relevant when they never followed the Edict in the first place because they decided it didn't apply to them. Not, it appears, that anyone else followed the Edict either. The point is that they still use a ton of Psykers while decrying everyone else's Psykers as unclean abominations for being Psykers. That's where they get the leg up on the Templars, because at least the Templars are restricting them to externally supplied support staff rather than producing them themselves.
Anyway, "Who's the biggest hypocrite?" isn't exactly on topic, even if it is amusing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/23 06:41:20
2013/08/23 06:45:04
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
The Space Wolves have no fluff I know of regarding decrying use of psykers in 40K. Where did you get that from?
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Nocturnus wrote: Until I have the codex in my hands, I refuse to give into the "Chicken Little" syndrome (The sky is falling!). I also don't get why people are pissed about not being able to mix SC. First off, it reeks of WAAC. Second, and maybe more important, I find SC are simply too expensive to field with any regularity. Just my two cents, of course.
Read back a few.pages and you'll find my postion scattered there.
First, I tip my hat to you for spending the time, money, effort, etc. to make your army unique. As a long time Chaos player (since Slaves to Darkness for Rogue Trader) I know all too well the frustration that occurs when GW makes certain models/units obsolete. Chaos codex 3.5 is still the best Chaos book. When they released the 4th ed book, my heavily converted Nurgle terminators (for example) were no longer usable. However, if you NEED those SC to make your army work, I think there's another problem. Just my two cents, of course. Cheers.
Oh of course there is, my army sucks! The only reason I win at all is better tactics and good rolling, cuz the units are the uncompetitve crap.
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2013/08/23 06:54:13
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
i can understand everyone's argument "hey they can now use all of the space marines stuff" but there is no buff to CC which is what they are supposed to be good at.
No its not, BT are supposed to be a horde marine army with some sprinkled in good close combat. Wolves are better in close in the fluff, along with GK and Chaos. But Perform close combat, but the schtick is and has been overwhelming crusade, not elite band of ninjas.
Got to love those Flanderizations that keep pushing armies further and further into weird positions they never really held.
2013/08/23 07:13:32
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
i can understand everyone's argument "hey they can now use all of the space marines stuff" but there is no buff to CC which is what they are supposed to be good at.
No its not, BT are supposed to be a horde marine army with some sprinkled in good close combat. Wolves are better in close in the fluff, along with GK and Chaos. But Perform close combat, but the schtick is and has been overwhelming crusade, not elite band of ninjas.
Got to love those Flanderizations that keep pushing armies further and further into weird positions they never really held.
*shrug* I play orks, so I have no problem having an army thats a delivery system for a few very mean characters, Bt can do that, and STILL take some of the fancy space marine toys.
its sure beats the hell out of needing to spam missiles and speeders like I've seen some local BT players do trying to fish a win out of the mall fountain.
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
2013/08/23 07:16:16
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
no, you run one hq and one as a ally. you just need 4 troops to do it.
Which I don't have. I have 2.
Wouldn't you only need 1 more Troops choice if you include an allied attachment (assuming the rumours for allying with a different chapter are true)? I don't see what all the fuss is about. Just pick up a 5 man Scout squad and you're set, they're not even expensive in both money and point costs terns, and make good home objective holders. And face it, having only 2 Troops was probably on the low side in the first place.
no, you run one hq and one as a ally. you just need 4 troops to do it.
Which I don't have. I have 2.
Wouldn't you only need 1 more Troops choice if you include an allied attachment (assuming the rumours for allying with a different chapter are true)? I don't see what all the fuss is about. Just pick up a 5 man Scout squad and you're set, they're not even expensive in both money and point costs terns, and make good home objective holders. And face it, having only 2 Troops was probably on the low side in the first place.
Again that's another can of worms due to fluff (dying chapter on the brink type stuff).
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2013/08/23 07:39:09
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
no, you run one hq and one as a ally. you just need 4 troops to do it.
Which I don't have. I have 2.
Wouldn't you only need 1 more Troops choice if you include an allied attachment (assuming the rumours for allying with a different chapter are true)? I don't see what all the fuss is about. Just pick up a 5 man Scout squad and you're set, they're not even expensive in both money and point costs terns, and make good home objective holders. And face it, having only 2 Troops was probably on the low side in the first place.
Again that's another can of worms due to fluff (dying chapter on the brink type stuff).
Been reading your complaints for a bit now; you backed yourself plenty into that corner BEFORE the codex changed with all that 'fluff'.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/23 07:39:27
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
2013/08/23 07:41:29
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Again that's another can of worms due to fluff (dying chapter on the brink type stuff).
At this point I'm just going to assume you're trolling, because you seem entirely too desperate to find new excuses to complain and disregard solutions offered.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2013/08/23 09:42:32
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Veteran Sergeant wrote: It's been discussed before, but the BT/SoB relationship on the ally chart is actually the way it should be.
Lazy writers in the past latched on to the "Religious Zealots who hate Psykers" bit and figured "Oh, hai, they'd be bestest allies rite?"
But the problem is, the Black Templars and Ecclesiarchy actually believe in entirely different things. And if there's one thing that fanatical religious zealots have always been throughout history, it's readily accepting of different religious beliefs.
After all, it's not like Protestants and Catholics ever fought one another over ridiculously small differences. Or Sunnis and Shiites. Nope. Always bestest buds.
The reality is that the Black Templars run a ridiculously illegal military, anywhere from five to ten times their authorized strength. The Sisters of Battle preach a preposterous faith that the Black Templars know is wrong, and, to boot, are the galaxy's notorious busybodies and often extensions of the Inquisition. Why the heck would the Black Templars want them around?
Out of all the Space Marine Chapters, the Black Templars would be the least likely to ally with the Sisters.
We have discussed this before but I don't agree There is a growing body of fluff buidling on the original codexes which sugests that the Black Templars are actually very much in line with the mainstream Imperial belief system and may in fact have originally been composed of those Astartes in the Imperial fists that had adopted the Emperor as Divine - something that can be seen starting to happen in the HH novels.
Is it not equally "lazy" to assume that all religious fanatics will be more interested in fighting each other than the actual enemies.
As others have noted - there are actual examples in the fluff (both Codex and BL) where the Black Templars and the Sororitas work together with little or no friction in a united goal against a common enemy - so maybe not Battle brothers - that should be at most reserved for other Astartes - but def Allies of Conveience. There are no examples that I am aware of where the BT and SOB fight each other as well as another enemy as the Desperate Allies would suggest.
As can be seen by the nonsense that is Tau being Battle Brothers with Astartes, rather than Allies of Conveince / Desperate Allies- the current flawed Allies Matrix is sadly soley about selling figures not expressing the actual fluff of the game...........
How is the Sisterhood going to be aware of the full extent of the Black Templars strength - its a suspicion only at the highest levels of the Inquisition and even they are less worried about them than openly flouting the rules (and firing on Imperial forces) Chapters such as the Space Wolves (who have actually fought the SOB) as the BT have never showed anything less than total devotion throughout their history.
Going back a bit OT - its a shame that they did not take this opportunity to fix the Allies matrix but rather compunded the error by highlighitng that the BT stays the same...............
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Again that's another can of worms due to fluff (dying chapter on the brink type stuff).
At this point I'm just going to assume you're trolling, because you seem entirely too desperate to find new excuses to complain and disregard solutions offered.
There is no solution. Yes, I handicap myself with my fluff, but only so that I am reliant on my HQs out of preference. But to be told that I can't even do it anymore is distressing, upsetting and to be called a troll for feeling like that is insulting, so I ask you politely not to. I shoot "solutions" down because due to circumstances, they won't be solutions. That is all.
All I originally said was that I don't like this idea because it affects me in X, Y and Z ways and its bad for me because it negatively affects my hobby. It was other people who expanded with suggestions on X, Y and Z. All I did was answer and if that makes me a troll then so be it. But just don't say it.
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2013/08/23 10:39:42
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
I really don't like that you pretty much HAVE to take a First Founding chapter in order to take the SCs (unless you play BTs). What about if you have, under the 5th edition book, bought characters as a "counts as" for your own chapters. I bought Telion for my Fire Hawks (Ultramarines Successor) army and now you're telling me that he's illegal if he isn't blue? F*** that.
I play Fire Hawks (SM) and Necrons.
"Pulling a tervigon into a Monolith portal is like trying to suck a pig into a vaccum cleaner."
2013/08/23 10:44:27
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
snorri788 wrote: I really don't like that you pretty much HAVE to take a First Founding chapter in order to take the SCs (unless you play BTs). What about if you have, under the 5th edition book, bought characters as a "counts as" for your own chapters. I bought Telion for my Fire Hawks (Ultramarines Successor) army and now you're telling me that he's illegal if he isn't blue? F*** that.
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Looking at all the rumors with a rational mind, this seems to be what everything boils down to.
2013/08/23 10:44:39
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
I bought Telion and Lysander for my Crimson Fists.
At the end of the day, special rules or not, they are still nice looking models, ans if I'm fielding Sniper Scouts, Telion will be the Sgt leading them with or without special rules.
If the thought of something makes me giggle for longer than 15 seconds, I am to assume that I am not allowed to do it. item 87, skippys list
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2013/08/23 11:00:38
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Looking at all the rumors with a rational mind, this seems to be what everything boils down to.
Thanks for that clarification. Let's hope that this is how it will work in tournaments etc.
marv335 wrote:I bought Telion and Lysander for my Crimson Fists.
At the end of the day, special rules or not, they are still nice looking models, ans if I'm fielding Sniper Scouts, Telion will be the Sgt leading them with or without special rules.
They are indeed very nice models. Telion was especially easy to convert and turn into a generic marine by filing off his Ultra logos (one of the few plus points of resin models).
I suppose I could use the models as generic models rather than SCs. However I expect I will get fed up of having to explain this and end up doing something else. There are Fire Hawks SCs in a Forge World book (Badab War?). I just don't know if they are viable yet in the new codex, and i am loathe to spend £40/£50 on one book for the sake of one character.
I play Fire Hawks (SM) and Necrons.
"Pulling a tervigon into a Monolith portal is like trying to suck a pig into a vaccum cleaner."
2013/08/23 12:01:07
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
= Epic First Post.
2013/08/23 12:04:06
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Lucarikx wrote: Are we even sure these guys have the book? Maybe we should ask them to show us a picture of the cover.
Lucarikx
Yeah, actually isn't it a bit suspicious that we haven't seen any more pics recently? If they do have a copy of the book, they seem to be even better at GW at making sure nobody gets any sneaky blurry camera phone photos to post on the web. I can understand them keeping a tight wrap on it as an exclusive to promote 40K Radio or whatever, but seems strange we've not seen even one picure that looks as if it's from the final codex - or if those pictures are out there can someone let me know where to find them?
Also, do we know how they even got a copy of the book? Or is the only answer 'Top Secret'?
2013/08/23 12:04:56
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
As I said I was simply replying. Best thing to do is just stop talking about it because I am compelled to respond if addressed, sorry.
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
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2013/08/23 12:09:02
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Lucarikx wrote: Are we even sure these guys have the book? Maybe we should ask them to show us a picture of the cover.
Lucarikx
Yeah, actually isn't it a bit suspicious that we haven't seen any more pics recently? If they do have a copy of the book, they seem to be even better at GW at making sure nobody gets any sneaky blurry camera phone photos to post on the web
Probably because radio stations aren't in the business of doing pictures
Now,.on a different note, when do the prereleases go.up? I haven't seen a teaser yet but it should have gone up already by my count.
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
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2013/08/23 12:13:03
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Personally I'm looking forward to this, assuming the rumours are true.
After having a read of the rules, the Centurions don't look as bad as feared, with the shots of the rear, they look a bit better, I think they are just victims of bad photography. S9 Ap2 weapons that strike at Initiative? That's going to hurt, and I can think of a few uses for that.
The sky is not falling, it's just a change. I've been here before, and it's certainly not the worst change between editions. 2nd-3rd holds that crown, and probably will forever more,
If the thought of something makes me giggle for longer than 15 seconds, I am to assume that I am not allowed to do it. item 87, skippys list
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2013/08/23 12:28:54
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
i can understand everyone's argument "hey they can now use all of the space marines stuff" but there is no buff to CC which is what they are supposed to be good at.
No its not, BT are supposed to be a horde marine army with some sprinkled in good close combat. Wolves are better in close in the fluff [...]
You have just unleashed a terrible evil that should have been left alone. Soapbox-rant incoming.
Spoiler:
The Black Templars were created from the most zealous of the Imperial Fists after the Heresy and led by a certain Sigismund, the first Emperor's Champion and skilled enough to earn the respect of the World Eaters in their gladiator rings, outfighting Khârn the Betrayer (his Oath Brother) in the process. He beat every single Champion of Chaos he went up against during the Siege of the Imperial Palace, the last of which is speculated to have been Khârn himself. The first High Marshal is thus the single most accomplished swordsmaster in the history of the Imperium this side of the Primarchs. It would stand to reason that a Chapter built on the foundation of the greatest swordsmaster in the Imperium would be pretty damn good in close combat.
Fluff-wise, Templars really aren't a horde marine army at all. Sure, there's 6000+ of them, but they're constantly spread out across the galaxy fighting the Eternal Crusade. Fluff-wise they're all about Armoured Spearheads (to get into close combat faster), Drop Pod Assaults (to get into close combat faster) and fleet actions (to get into boarding combat faster). The entire modus operandi of the Black Templars is to get into close combat fast and then beat the enemy there, to the point that they eschew Devastator Squads ( well, up until this Codex) and Scout Squads, unlike the Space Wolves. It would stand to reason that a Chapter that specializes almost exclusively in close combat would be better, on average, at close combat than a Chapter that specializes in short-range fighting.
Regarding the "hypocritical hatred of psykers", the Black Templars Codex states that (pg. 8, right-hand column) "Exactly how these Crusades communicate with each other is uncertain, though it is speculated that the Black Templars make use of only such Navigators and Astropaths as have been sacntifide by other organisations and are repentant of the curse of psychic powers.". So yeah, Space Wolves take the "most hypocritical Chapter" award once again.
On topic, have we heard anything about the statline of the Emperor's Champion other than his alleged 2A base? He had better WS than Chapter Masters in 4th edition, so I'm kinda curious as to whether he'll have WS7 or stay at WS6.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/23 12:29:07
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2013/08/23 12:29:08
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Lucarikx wrote: Are we even sure these guys have the book? Maybe we should ask them to show us a picture of the cover.
Lucarikx
Yeah, actually isn't it a bit suspicious that we haven't seen any more pics recently? If they do have a copy of the book, they seem to be even better at GW at making sure nobody gets any sneaky blurry camera phone photos to post on the web
Probably because radio stations aren't in the business of doing pictures
Such a 20th Century attitude to radio
In any case, even if they don't post the pics themselves I'm surprised not one person who has access to the Codex has been tempted to sneak a pic and post on a forum?
2013/08/23 13:12:33
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Deadshot wrote: Now,.on a different note, when do the prereleases go.up? I haven't seen a teaser yet but it should have gone up already by my count.
Teaser goes up the Monday before the pre-order window opens which is the same Saturday the White Dwarf comes out: the last Saturday of the month.
I thought tomorrow (24th Aug) was the last Saturday?
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2013/08/23 13:35:52
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Deadshot wrote: Now,.on a different note, when do the prereleases go.up? I haven't seen a teaser yet but it should have gone up already by my count.
Teaser goes up the Monday before the pre-order window opens which is the same Saturday the White Dwarf comes out: the last Saturday of the month.
I thought tomorrow (24th Aug) was the last Saturday?
Nope, 31st is the last Saturday. Frankly can't wait for the new codex, seems like about everything i have currently will be getting better, and i might just get some vanguard vets to compliment my assault marines, considering they are getting a price cut from failcast. Actually might use 2 to finish my asault marines and use the last three for my own Blood Ravens Honor Guard.
