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2013/08/23 13:38:54
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
I will admit, those Vanguard look really awesome, as do the tanks. I may learn to magnetise them.
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures! DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+ Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
2013/08/23 14:08:54
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
no, you run one hq and one as a ally. you just need 4 troops to do it.
Which I don't have. I have 2.
Wouldn't you only need 1 more Troops choice if you include an allied attachment (assuming the rumours for allying with a different chapter are true)? I don't see what all the fuss is about. Just pick up a 5 man Scout squad and you're set, they're not even expensive in both money and point costs terns, and make good home objective holders. And face it, having only 2 Troops was probably on the low side in the first place.
Again that's another can of worms due to fluff (dying chapter on the brink type stuff).
If you can bring 5 man tacs as the rumors suggest, then those two 10 man tac squad you have can be fielded as 4 troops. You have no problems
I wasn't hugely impressed to see BT being rolled into the main dex but ill hold off on judgement to see what the new dex has to offer. pretty gutted the BT rumours werent true, though they did seem to good, and especially gutted to lose righteous zeal :(
The EC should be an absolute tank in close combat, as an already decent close combat soldier (fluffwise anyway) then gets basically possessed by the emperor and guided by his visions. He should be at least WS7/8, im hoping due to the loss of rage he isnt going from 4 to 3 attacks on the charge too.
heres hoping I can still build a pretty heavy assault themed army to capture the flavour of BT. I'm quite interested in the VV.
I've mental images of the new centurions being stripped of those god awful seige drills to be replaced with swords and hammers, and if theres an extra armour option -shields. That and if the legs are articulated/easy enough to convert into an advancing pose should make them look much nicer in my eyes anyway
10000+pts
2000pts
No pity! No remorse! No fear
2013/08/23 14:22:21
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
i can understand everyone's argument "hey they can now use all of the space marines stuff" but there is no buff to CC which is what they are supposed to be good at.
No its not, BT are supposed to be a horde marine army with some sprinkled in good close combat. Wolves are better in close in the fluff [...]
You have just unleashed a terrible evil that should have been left alone. Soapbox-rant incoming.
The Black Templars were created from the most zealous of the Imperial Fists after the Heresy and led by a certain Sigismund, the first Emperor's Champion and skilled enough to earn the respect of the World Eaters in their gladiator rings, outfighting Khârn the Betrayer (his Oath Brother) in the process. He beat every single Champion of Chaos he went up against during the Siege of the Imperial Palace, the last of which is speculated to have been Khârn himself. The first High Marshal is thus the single most accomplished swordsmaster in the history of the Imperium this side of the Primarchs. It would stand to reason that a Chapter built on the foundation of the greatest swordsmaster in the Imperium would be pretty damn good in close combat.
Fluff-wise, Templars really aren't a horde marine army at all. Sure, there's 6000+ of them, but they're constantly spread out across the galaxy fighting the Eternal Crusade. Fluff-wise they're all about Armoured Spearheads (to get into close combat faster), Drop Pod Assaults (to get into close combat faster) and fleet actions (to get into boarding combat faster). The entire modus operandi of the Black Templars is to get into close combat fast and then beat the enemy there, to the point that they eschew Devastator Squads ( well, up until this Codex) and Scout Squads, unlike the Space Wolves. It would stand to reason that a Chapter that specializes almost exclusively in close combat would be better, on average, at close combat than a Chapter that specializes in short-range fighting.
Regarding the "hypocritical hatred of psykers", the Black Templars Codex states that (pg. 8, right-hand column) "Exactly how these Crusades communicate with each other is uncertain, though it is speculated that the Black Templars make use of only such Navigators and Astropaths as have been sacntifide by other organisations and are repentant of the curse of psychic powers.". So yeah, Space Wolves take the "most hypocritical Chapter" award once again.
Worst reasoning ever. Hey this one time there was a Greek named Achilles who was the best swordsman to ever live, yet another Greek named Odysseus was SUPER smart and clever, therefore ALL Greeks from then on MUST be mentally and physically superior to any other human.
Just because Sigismund was handy in combat doesn't mean all Black templars are the best. Also note that it never says he was the best, only that he defeated every champion he met. Not to reign on your parade but every chaos champion I own dies in challenges fairly easily
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The Grey Knights have always been specifically excluded from the hatred of the Templars. Maybe it's assumed the Grey Knights have better things to do than worry about what the Black Templars are doing. And there are all kinds of legitimate arguments that the Black Templars should hate Eldar and Tau too. I won't disagree with that. Maybe the thinking is that at least you know the Tau aren't going to tattle on you for having a couple thousand more Space Marines hanging around than you're supposed to. Besides, the Black Templars are the galaxy's biggest hypocrits anyway. With a massive chapter fleet and multiple crusades tromping around the galaxy requiring all sorts of Astropaths and Navigators, they employ more psykers than any other chapter than perhaps the Ultramarines (just based on the fact that the Ultramarines have hundreds of regiments of guard quality PDF ad assumedly a navy to match).
"Abhor the witch.
Okay, unless we really need them. Or they are Grey Knights. Those guys seem legit."
But really, the difference between the Templars and the rest of the Space Marines comes in their level of devotion. These guys start speaking in tongues and having seizures like Pentacostals. And the guy who flips out the best gets a huge sword and some sweet armor. They're a bit off their rockers. Won't use cover, and apparently up until now were totally opposed to the idea of having fire support units like Devastators, Thunderfires, or Whirlwinds. Logic and reason are not the domain of the Black Templar. They are the Doritos of Space Marines. Crunch all you want. We'll make more.
The rest of the Space Marines just look at the Ecclesiarchy like "Well, that's kinda dumb, but it keeps the sheep in line so we don't have to. As long as they don't bother us, they're serving a purpose and the Imperium."
Exalted for being too much awesome!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/23 14:23:36
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The Space Wolves are a whole different animal (). I've got problems with the ridiculousness of the Space Wolves fluff, given that they get to ignore the rules of Space Marines any time it makes them cooler. "Space Marines can't get drunk. Their blood is super filtered." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves invented super booze to get drunk on." "Space Marines have to be recruited at a young age because they have to start organ implementation before the onset of puberty." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves can be recruited in their teens so they can bang chicks before being Space Marines." "Space Marines are heavily indoctrinated warriors with little to no personality and spend their entire lives preparing for, and going to, war." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves are fookin' Space Vikings! How ya'all losers like them apples?" "Space Marines have short cropped hair and shave their faces so they can properly seal their helmets without worrying about compromising the eviro-seals." "Oh yeah? Pony tails and beards all around!"
So yeah, the Space Wolves are another breed of ridicusilly entirely. But I don't really see where they are hypocrits.
There is nothing about this post that I don't like.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The Space Wolves have no fluff I know of regarding decrying use of psykers in 40K. Where did you get that from?
That's because the only "fluff" that purports SW hatred for psykers is the from Black Library, none of which is actually cannon. The SW hatred for the Thousand Sons stems from the Emperor himself telling Leman Russ to go hunt them down for witchcraft. That's about as far as it goes in actual 40k fluff.
2013/08/23 15:27:53
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
AlmightyWalrus wrote:It would stand to reason that a Chapter built on the foundation of the greatest swordsmaster in the Imperium would be pretty damn good in close combat.
Lots of things get lost over 10,000 years.
It would stand to reason that a Chapter that specializes almost exclusively in close combat would be better, on average, at close combat than a Chapter that specializes in short-range fighting.
The problem is, the Black Templars charge recklessly into weathering fire, eschew the use of cover, and covering fire. They also throw their least experienced warriors in with their significantly more heavily armored brothers. Heavily armored targets tend to draw more fire and heavier fire than less threatening targets. Basically, Neophytes are getting thrown into the grinder by being interspersed with a bunch of walking tanks,while only themselves wearing medium grade armor. The Black Templars also still fight "Crusade Style". It's important to note that the Ultramarines were denoted as being the Legion in the Great Crusade who won one of the higher tallies of battles and suffered the fewest casualties in the process of doing so. The Black Templars whole deal was "Screw the Codex", and their tactics and unit selections reflect that. Basically, they still fight with the Great Crusade mentality of "It doesn't matter how many of us you kill, we'll just make some more." Everyone else uses the Ultramarines' tactics as laid down in the Codex Astartes because they only get 1,000 guys and the individual guys are assets to be preserved, and not assets to simply be expended like the Black Templars view their Marines. The Black Templars may be a close combat oriented army, but their significantly higher casualty rates in combat would lead to an overall lower skill level amongst the Marines. A Space Wolf Grey Hunter is a veteran of centuries. A Black Templar Initiate? Probably not.
Regarding the "hypocritical hatred of psykers", the Black Templars Codex states that (pg. 8, right-hand column) "Exactly how these Crusades communicate with each other is uncertain, though it is speculated that the Black Templars make use of only such Navigators and Astropaths as have been sacntifide by other organisations and are repentant of the curse of psychic powers.". So yeah, Space Wolves take the "most hypocritical Chapter" award once again
Nope. Like it has been mentioned, the Space Wolves may have been hypocritical 10,000 years ago when they defied the Edict of Nikea, but no longer.
Ultimately, the rationalization of "abhoring the witch, but these guys are okay because they said they felt bad about it" is still a compromise of the value. It's a justifiable hypocrisy, but it's still a hypocrisy.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Everyone else uses the Ultramarines' tactics as laid down in the Codex Astartes
Er... about that.
I knew this would come. This is actually a common misconception amongst players who don't realize the Codex Astartes has many different parts to it. Many Chapters like the Space Wolves eschew the training and organizational doctrine of the Codex. That stems from Russ's objection to splitting his Legion.
The tactics are an entirely different story. Only the Black Templars seem to completely disregard the Codex when it comes to strategy and tactics. The Space Wolves, despite having their own organizational ideas still use all the basic Codex style formations. Their Assault, Tactical, Devastator, and Scout squads are simply arranged in a different hierarchy of experience levels. Given that they still deploy Assault Squads (Blood/Skyclaws), Tactical Squads (Grey Hunters), Devastators (Long Fangs), Scouts, and Veterans (Wolf Guard), it stands to reason that they would fight in a fairly similar manner to the rest of the Space Marines, and use the tactical doctrines which have made the Space Marines the greatest warriors in the Imperium. Well, except when Graham McNeill writes about them. But Graham McNeill apparently wasn't loaned a copy of Codex: Ultramarines when he went to write about them and the Codex.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Everyone else uses the Ultramarines' tactics as laid down in the Codex Astartes
Er... about that.
I knew this would come. This is actually a common misconception amongst players who don't realize the Codex Astartes has many different parts to it. Many Chapters like the Space Wolves eschew the training and organizational doctrine of the Codex. That stems from Russ's objection to splitting his Legion.
The tactics are an entirely different story. Only the Black Templars seem to completely disregard the Codex when it comes to strategy and tactics. The Space Wolves, despite having their own organizational ideas still use all the basic Codex style formations. Their Assault, Tactical, Devastator, and Scout squads are simply arranged in a different hierarchy of experience levels. Given that they still deploy Assault Squads (Blood/Skyclaws), Tactical Squads (Grey Hunters), Devastators (Long Fangs), Scouts, and Veterans (Wolf Guard), it stands to reason that they would fight in a fairly similar manner to the rest of the Space Marines, and use the tactical doctrines which have made the Space Marines the greatest warriors in the Imperium. Well, except when Graham McNeill writes about them. But Graham McNeill apparently wasn't loaned a copy of Codex: Ultramarines when he went to write about them and the Codex.
Ah, I was focusing more on the actual organizational part than the tactics part.
2013/08/23 16:18:25
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Everyone else uses the Ultramarines' tactics as laid down in the Codex Astartes
Er... about that.
I knew this would come. This is actually a common misconception amongst players who don't realize the Codex Astartes has many different parts to it. Many Chapters like the Space Wolves eschew the training and organizational doctrine of the Codex. That stems from Russ's objection to splitting his Legion.
The tactics are an entirely different story. Only the Black Templars seem to completely disregard the Codex when it comes to strategy and tactics. The Space Wolves, despite having their own organizational ideas still use all the basic Codex style formations. Their Assault, Tactical, Devastator, and Scout squads are simply arranged in a different hierarchy of experience levels. Given that they still deploy Assault Squads (Blood/Skyclaws), Tactical Squads (Grey Hunters), Devastators (Long Fangs), Scouts, and Veterans (Wolf Guard), it stands to reason that they would fight in a fairly similar manner to the rest of the Space Marines, and use the tactical doctrines which have made the Space Marines the greatest warriors in the Imperium. Well, except when Graham McNeill writes about them. But Graham McNeill apparently wasn't loaned a copy of Codex: Ultramarines when he went to write about them and the Codex.
Ah, I was focusing more on the actual organizational part than the tactics part.
Everyone usually does.
2013/08/23 16:37:13
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Everyone else uses the Ultramarines' tactics as laid down in the Codex Astartes
Er... about that.
I knew this would come. This is actually a common misconception amongst players who don't realize the Codex Astartes has many different parts to it. Many Chapters like the Space Wolves eschew the training and organizational doctrine of the Codex. That stems from Russ's objection to splitting his Legion.
The tactics are an entirely different story. Only the Black Templars seem to completely disregard the Codex when it comes to strategy and tactics. The Space Wolves, despite having their own organizational ideas still use all the basic Codex style formations. Their Assault, Tactical, Devastator, and Scout squads are simply arranged in a different hierarchy of experience levels. Given that they still deploy Assault Squads (Blood/Skyclaws), Tactical Squads (Grey Hunters), Devastators (Long Fangs), Scouts, and Veterans (Wolf Guard), it stands to reason that they would fight in a fairly similar manner to the rest of the Space Marines, and use the tactical doctrines which have made the Space Marines the greatest warriors in the Imperium. Well, except when Graham McNeill writes about them. But Graham McNeill apparently wasn't loaned a copy of Codex: Ultramarines when he went to write about them and the Codex.
Ah, I was focusing more on the actual organizational part than the tactics part.
Everyone usually does.
Probably because that's the only part we as players really see mechanically. As I don't actually own a copy of the Codex Astartes as put down by Guillmon, I can't speak to what it says about tactics. I can easily see that Space Wolf scouts are nothing much like their more Codex brethren. For a Codex chapter, newbies start as scouts and move to blah de bloo de bluh, you know the rest. Can't really see the "divide your forces into battle groups and do this then this, this and this" portion.
2013/08/23 16:42:13
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
The problem is, the Black Templars charge recklessly into weathering fire, eschew the use of cover, and covering fire. They also throw their least experienced warriors in with their significantly more heavily armored brothers. Heavily armored targets tend to draw more fire and heavier fire than less threatening targets. Basically, Neophytes are getting thrown into the grinder by being interspersed with a bunch of walking tanks,while only themselves wearing medium grade armor. The Black Templars also still fight "Crusade Style". It's important to note that the Ultramarines were denoted as being the Legion in the Great Crusade who won one of the higher tallies of battles and suffered the fewest casualties in the process of doing so. The Black Templars whole deal was "Screw the Codex", and their tactics and unit selections reflect that. Basically, they still fight with the Great Crusade mentality of "It doesn't matter how many of us you kill, we'll just make some more." Everyone else uses the Ultramarines' tactics as laid down in the Codex Astartes because they only get 1,000 guys and the individual guys are assets to be preserved, and not assets to simply be expended like the Black Templars view their Marines. The Black Templars may be a close combat oriented army, but their significantly higher casualty rates in combat would lead to an overall lower skill level amongst the Marines. A Space Wolf Grey Hunter is a veteran of centuries. A Black Templar Initiate? Probably not.
I think you're over-exaggerating how "little" BT values the chapter's battle-brothers. Neophytes are put through a meant grinder to prove their worth, perhaps, but a full-fledged battle-brother isn't a throwaway commodity. Salamanders got what, 1-2 initiates or so killed by refusing to help the Templars bring down a warboss in Helsreach, and losing those initiates pissed Grimaldus off so badly that instead of agreeing to acting as a chaplain for the Salamander rites like asked to (which apparently would've been an almost unheard of honor), he told them to get out of his city. Of course the warboss getting away was part of what got him pissed, but as I recall it was more the initiates (been meaning to re-read the book at some point, that ought to freshen up my recollections). And in general he had a quite hard time seeing his 100 strong force slowly being dwindled down into nothing. So while BT may seem reckless at times and willing to die to get the job done, it's hardly just "meh, we'll make some more."
Armies:
Primary: Black Templars Crimson Fists Orks
Allied: Sisters of Battle Imperial Guard
2013/08/23 16:47:17
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
It would stand to reason that a Chapter that specializes almost exclusively in close combat would be better, on average, at close combat than a Chapter that specializes in short-range fighting.
The problem is, the Black Templars charge recklessly into weathering fire, eschew the use of cover, and covering fire. They also throw their least experienced warriors in with their significantly more heavily armored brothers.
As opposed to Bloodclaws and Skyclaws, who go into battle without any sort of guidance at all (admittedly with Power Armour, but still)? Attrition is the Space Wolf hallmark, with their squad numbers going down the older they are until they're Lone Wolves. Furthermore, the only thing about Templars that suggest they "eschew the use of cover and covering fire" is one game mechanic that doesn't let them take cover saves, and you don't even have to pick it. They invented the Land Raider Crusader to be able to provide covering fire while advancing on the enemy safely, directly disproving your statement.
Worst reasoning ever. Hey this one time there was a Greek named Achilles who was the best swordsman to ever live, yet another Greek named Odysseus was SUPER smart and clever, therefore ALL Greeks from then on MUST be mentally and physically superior to any other human.
Just because Sigismund was handy in combat doesn't mean all Black templars are the best. Also note that it never says he was the best, only that he defeated every champion he met. Not to reign on your parade but every chaos champion I own dies in challenges fairly easily
If Achilles started a order of swordsmen and passed down his teachings to it, forming it in his image, with a focus on swordsmanship, I'd imagine that the order would be pretty damn good at swordsmanship.
The Chaos Champions at the Siege of the Imperial Palace were just SLIGHTLY more powerful than the "Chaos Champion" that's in your Codex. We're talking Khârn-level Champions. Sigismund went one on one with a ton of them and won every fight. What is Bjorn the Fell-Handed famous for, other than being really old? Getting his arm chopped off by an ally to save him from dying? The Black Templars are renowned for their fighting prowess in close combat, the Space Wolves are renowned for their ferociousness in close combat. Per definition, being more skillful in combat means that you're better in combat than someone less skilled.
Finally, there's been nothing mentioned that backs up the allegations that Space Wolves are better at Close Combat than the Black Templars at all.
On-topic:
Both DA and BA got 3-wound Chaplain variants, right? Yet we've only heard about 2-wound Chaplains for Vanilla (excluding Grimaldus and Cassius). That's rather interesting, wouldn't you think?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2013/08/23 16:50:21
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Everyone else uses the Ultramarines' tactics as laid down in the Codex Astartes
Er... about that.
I knew this would come. This is actually a common misconception amongst players who don't realize the Codex Astartes has many different parts to it. Many Chapters like the Space Wolves eschew the training and organizational doctrine of the Codex. That stems from Russ's objection to splitting his Legion.
The tactics are an entirely different story. Only the Black Templars seem to completely disregard the Codex when it comes to strategy and tactics. The Space Wolves, despite having their own organizational ideas still use all the basic Codex style formations. Their Assault, Tactical, Devastator, and Scout squads are simply arranged in a different hierarchy of experience levels. Given that they still deploy Assault Squads (Blood/Skyclaws), Tactical Squads (Grey Hunters), Devastators (Long Fangs), Scouts, and Veterans (Wolf Guard), it stands to reason that they would fight in a fairly similar manner to the rest of the Space Marines, and use the tactical doctrines which have made the Space Marines the greatest warriors in the Imperium. Well, except when Graham McNeill writes about them. But Graham McNeill apparently wasn't loaned a copy of Codex: Ultramarines when he went to write about them and the Codex.
Ah, I was focusing more on the actual organizational part than the tactics part.
Everyone usually does.
Probably because that's the only part we as players really see mechanically. As I don't actually own a copy of the Codex Astartes as put down by Guillmon, I can't speak to what it says about tactics. I can easily see that Space Wolf scouts are nothing much like their more Codex brethren. For a Codex chapter, newbies start as scouts and move to blah de bloo de bluh, you know the rest. Can't really see the "divide your forces into battle groups and do this then this, this and this" portion.
Yes, the "do this then this, this and this" is Graham McNeill's horsepuckey that goes against all other written material on the codex that I've ever seen (and I still have my 2e copy of Codex:Ultramarines).
The details of chapter organization are just one small aspect of the codex. From what I recall, it's more of a compendium of "best practices", some written by Guilliman, some incorporated by him from other sources, including other primarchs, contemporary Imperial commanders, and historical sources.
As an example, if a copy of Sun Tzu's Art of War was still floating around, you better believe Guilliman would include it, along with his notes on it, other people s interpretations, practical applications, and examples from real-world implementation. That's what I've gathered from descriptions of it (outside of McNeill). A massive tome gathering all of mankind's knowledge on every aspect of warfare, dissected and distilled by (purportedly) one of the greatest military thinkers mankind has ever seen.
Edit: apologies as this is probably way off topic. It's just one of my pet peeves.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/23 16:52:50
Battlefleet Gothic ships and markers at my store, GrimDarkBits:
2013/08/23 16:55:47
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
As much as I would love more BA chaplains (they are the best models in the game after all), not every marine codex needs to have exactly the same stuff.
I think BA and DA have pretty good fluff for their next tier chappys.
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
= Epic First Post.
2013/08/23 17:09:38
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
AlmightyWalrus wrote: He beat every single Champion of Chaos he went up against during the Siege of the Imperial Palace, the last of which is speculated to have been Khârn himself.
Just because Sigismund was handy in combat doesn't mean all Black templars are the best. Also note that it never says he was the best, only that he defeated every champion he met. Not to reign on your parade but every chaos champion I own dies in challenges fairly easily
Agreed. If you want rules to reflect fluff and the fluff is that this guy should be able to punk 1 wound 2 attack 4s across the board Champions of Chaos. That isn't very powerful at all.
So what if he supposedly punked kharn. Kharn gets punked all the time unless you are wielding a force weapon(he is great at killing rank and file or squarind off against guys with a force weapon[and now not eve ngood against force weapons])
Or how about we make Lucius the Eternal's rules reflect fluff?
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
2013/08/23 17:18:07
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
The main reason that the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark angels are their own book is because they had their own model lines in 2nd edition, thus they were kept as separate books. Not much about tactics or history or fluff, it's the model line.
Also, the players playing those 3 armies eclipses Templars or any other chapter (besides ultramarines) by huge degrees.
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32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,
2013/08/23 17:20:19
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
t's important to note that the Ultramarines were denoted as being the Legion in the Great Crusade who won one of the higher tallies of battles and suffered the fewest casualties in the process of doing so.
So the BT, or better the Imperial fists who became the BT, had to stay at Terra. How do you reap those victories at your safe home base?
The Black Templars may be a close combat oriented army, but their significantly higher casualty rates in combat would lead to an overall lower skill level amongst the Marines. A Space Wolf Grey Hunter is a veteran of centuries. A Black Templar Initiate? Probably not.
Rather a different skill learned than a lower level.
BT are closer to Legion tactics. You are saying the Legiones Astartes had a lower skill level than m40 codex adherent astartes because of casualty rates?
BT were/are: A theme of crusading knights in space who stick with the old - pre codex ways and assure the enemy is dealt with by making close and personal. They didn't need squad leaders as brothers in battle. Their command and vets are not elevated by a Master but their brethren.
Very different theme.
If the rumors come true GW wasted a chance to throw remnants of the old days into M40. Instead we have to endure toyish designs like the centurions. ?YAY?
Ultimately, the rationalization of "abhoring the witch, but these guys are okay because they said they felt bad about it" is still a compromise of the value. It's a justifiable hypocrisy, but it's still a hypocrisy.
Navigators and Astropaths weren't part of the ban at nikaea. BT just run with the "no witch in our ranks" rule and the distrust has condensed into the current view after 10 millenia. Where SW are in denial for 10 millenia....
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
2013/08/23 17:22:24
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Nicely put
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
2013/08/23 17:29:59
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Nicely put
Speculation. Everything that we know are two questions and answers from 40K Radio, both of which imply that SCs are limited specifically to their own Chapter, and until we get further clarification, claiming anything else is presumptuous.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2013/08/23 17:34:41
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
As everyone else argues and complains about this and that chapter not being portrayed in the rules right, Iron Hands players just sit there content that they are no longer just a two sentence description read in passing.
Games Workshop: Ruining Chaos Space Marines since 2007
First they raised prices on the Eldar, and I did not speak out because I did not play Eldar.
Then, they raised prices on the Orks, and I did not speak out because I did not play Orks.
Then, they raised prices on the Nids, and I did not speak out because I did not play Nids.
Then, they raised prices on the Marines, and there was nobody to speak out for me.
2013/08/23 17:45:23
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Nicely put
Speculation. Everything that we know are two questions and answers from 40K Radio, both of which imply that SCs are limited specifically to their own Chapter, and until we get further clarification, claiming anything else is presumptuous.
And thus, the real crux of the problem is said (again). Despite popular conception, no one here is saying that you can't use count as. The rules as they are being told to us, say you can't use count as. We'll know more fairly soon.
2013/08/23 17:48:59
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Nicely put
Speculation. Everything that we know are two questions and answers from 40K Radio, both of which imply that SCs are limited specifically to their own Chapter, and until we get further clarification, claiming anything else is presumptuous.
It's not presumptuous, its deductive reasoning. 1 and 2 are confirmed 3 and 4 are pretty much 1 and 2 but in different paint schemes. GW can't control how I paint my marines as long as I adhere to 1 and 2. If someone says they won't play me because my Calgar isn't "Calgar" and my marines are red instead of blue but everything is modeled correctly then that person has issues and does not comprehend they are playing a fantasy table top war game.
Games Workshop: Ruining Chaos Space Marines since 2007
First they raised prices on the Eldar, and I did not speak out because I did not play Eldar.
Then, they raised prices on the Orks, and I did not speak out because I did not play Orks.
Then, they raised prices on the Nids, and I did not speak out because I did not play Nids.
Then, they raised prices on the Marines, and there was nobody to speak out for me.
2013/08/23 17:53:30
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Nicely put
Speculation. Everything that we know are two questions and answers from 40K Radio, both of which imply that SCs are limited specifically to their own Chapter, and until we get further clarification, claiming anything else is presumptuous.
It's not presumptuous, its deductive reasoning. 1 and 2 are confirmed 3 and 4 are pretty much 1 and 2 but in different paint schemes. GW can't control how I paint my marines as long as I adhere to 1 and 2. If someone says they won't play me because my Calgar isn't "Calgar" and my marines are red instead of blue but everything is modeled correctly then that person has issues and does not comprehend they are playing a fantasy table top war game.
Then you'd be playing house rules. IFGW really does have such a rule than deviation from that rule is house rules. Claiming that GW "can't" make such a rule or "won't" based on past history is rather foolish as GW does stuff they haven't done with the rules on a regular basis. Instead we need to consider it as possible (if unlikely) and accept that if we deviate from it that we're playing a house ruled version of the game, not it's strict rules.
I'm not saying house rules are wrong, I'm just saying that we shouldn't be claiming to be automatically "right" about this until we get a better explanation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/23 17:57:21
2013/08/23 17:58:06
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Nicely put
Speculation. Everything that we know are two questions and answers from 40K Radio, both of which imply that SCs are limited specifically to their own Chapter, and until we get further clarification, claiming anything else is presumptuous.
It's not presumptuous, its deductive reasoning. 1 and 2 are confirmed 3 and 4 are pretty much 1 and 2 but in different paint schemes. GW can't control how I paint my marines as long as I adhere to 1 and 2. If someone says they won't play me because my Calgar isn't "Calgar" and my marines are red instead of blue but everything is modeled correctly then that person has issues and does not comprehend they are playing a fantasy table top war game.
Then you'd be playing house rules. IFGW really does have such a rule than deviation from that rule is house rules. Claiming that GW "can't" make such a rule or "won't" based on paster history is rather foolish as GW does stuff they haven't done with the rules on a regular basis. Instead we need to consider it as possible (if unlikely) and accept that if we deviate from it that we're playing a house ruled version of the game, not it's strict rules.
I'm not saying house rules are wrong, I'm just saying that we shouldn't be claiming to be automatically "right" about this until we get a better explanation.
I remember a time when everything was "house rules" and the game was much more entered around having fun. Now if I'm told at a GW store to go home because my marines arnt blue but clearly painted and modeled better than those playing "real" Ultra Marines then the game and player base has truly lost sight of what this game is about or atleast what it was about.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/23 18:05:54
Games Workshop: Ruining Chaos Space Marines since 2007
First they raised prices on the Eldar, and I did not speak out because I did not play Eldar.
Then, they raised prices on the Orks, and I did not speak out because I did not play Orks.
Then, they raised prices on the Nids, and I did not speak out because I did not play Nids.
Then, they raised prices on the Marines, and there was nobody to speak out for me.
2013/08/23 18:02:55
Subject: Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
If GW wants me to play only with models painted the colors of the chapter, they better start selling pre-painted models, because ain't nobody got time for dat.
2013/08/23 18:07:57
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 22-08-2013 - 40k Radio Q&A added]
1hadhq wrote:
So the BT, or better the Imperial fists who became the BT, had to stay at Terra. How do you reap those victories at your safe home base?
The Imperial Fists didn't return to Terra until the very end of the Crusade, when the Emperor did. Almost all of the fighting was done by then. Nobody is suggesting the Imperial Fists performed poorly in the Crusade. But the Ultramarines clearly outperformed everyone else, managing to not only have one of the highest victory tallies, but also to have created the most stable area of space in their wake and increase their numbers far beyond any of their peers through effective recruiting and casualty minimization. Very few of the Legions did poorly in the Crusade. It's just that the Ultramarines did that much better.
[quoteA codex which is a copy of a copy of a copy.....
Perhaps in some cases. The Ultramarines have an original copy. Given how close they operate with their Successors, it stands to reason the Successors who maintain a good relationship with the Ultramarines also have fairly good copies. Ultramarines successors are 60-65% of all Space Marines. Reports of crappy, defective copies of the Codex Astartes have been greatly exaggerated.
BT are closer to Legion tactics. You are saying the Legiones Astartes had a lower skill level than m40 codex adherent astartes because of casualty rates?
Possibly. The quality level of Legion Marines was quite variable. Not all of them were even actual Space Marines, but instead modified regular humans. And over half of them were corrupted. They don't even get ATSKNF in 30K rules. So yeah, it's fairly safe to say the quality of Legionnaires was somewhat lower than the modern Space Marine. Perhaps not low enough to make a stat line difference in a game revolving around single D6 rolls and margins of error that vary by approximately 16.7%.
They didn't need squad leaders as brothers in battle.
Small unit leaders are the backbone of any modern military force. The lack of a coherent chain of command and experienced leaders is one of the Black Templars' most glaring deficiencies, lol.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
They invented the Land Raider Crusader to be able to provide covering fire while advancing on the enemy safely, directly disproving your statement.
Actually, it proves nothing than the fact that you don't really see what the Land Raider Crusader represents.
It's nothing more than a short ranged assault transport. The provide no covering fire whatsoever, lacking the Land Raider's long range firepower. It's designed to get up really close, then shoot a bunch of ammunition off while the Doritos inside charge out. This isn't really the concept of covering fires in the traditional military sense. It's simply a short range suppression instrument. The Crusader itself lacks any ability to engage enemy armor or deal with entrenched threats on the approach. The philosophy behind the LRC is that is is hopefully tough enough to get up close.
Ultimately, the LRC doesn't demonstrate any grasp of combined arms doctrine. It was just an adaptation for the Black Templars to stuff more dudes into a Land Raider. The classic LR is superior in almost every way, in terms of assault transport design. It has a strong, intermediate range anti-armor capability, as well the ability to provide suppressive anti-infantry firepower at both close to medium range. The LRC is a specialized close assault platform, nothing more.Understandably, the BTs own regular LRs too. But the idea that the LRC was some kind of demonstration that they were able to adequately replicate the maneuver warfare doctrines of the Codex Astartes is silly. If combat just always occurred right up close, that might make a difference. But on an actual battlefield, you have to adapt to conditions that might not conform to your ideal. In that case, the Black Templars, under their old list rules, stand at a disadvantage due to their lack of flexibility.
Attrition is the Space Wolf hallmark, with their squad numbers going down the older they are until they're Lone Wolves.
You're confusing the idea that the Space Wolves don't replenish losses to packs with attrition style warfare. You're comparing apples to tire pressure regulators. If anything, the fact that the average Long Fangs pack apparently has 6 out of its ten Marines still alive decades, if not centuries into its existence seems to defeat any idea that the Space Wolves utilize any kind of attrition warfare strategies.
For your edification: Attrition warfare. Manuever warfare. By no means do the Black Templars practice attrition warfare either. Even their numbers aren't sufficient for such a practice. It's just that their style of warfare, which is far more representative of simple Force Concentration theories, is far more direct, which will inevitably lead to higher casualty rates than Space Marine Chapters utilizing strategies that are aimed towards disruption of the enemy's ability to fight and complete their decision making processes on the battlefield, and the more balanced capability of the Battle Company style formation allows a Space Marine commander to react better to the battlespace as it evolves. What happens when Black Templars find themselves in a situation where suddenly they can't drop assault, or ride in Land Raiders? What do they do?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/23 18:10:00
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
10000+pts
2000pts
No pity! No remorse! No fear 
). I've got problems with the ridiculousness of the Space Wolves fluff, given that they get to ignore the rules of Space Marines any time it makes them cooler. "Space Marines can't get drunk. Their blood is super filtered." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves invented super booze to get drunk on." "Space Marines have to be recruited at a young age because they have to start organ implementation before the onset of puberty." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves can be recruited in their teens so they can bang chicks before being Space Marines." "Space Marines are heavily indoctrinated warriors with little to no personality and spend their entire lives preparing for, and going to, war." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves are fookin' Space Vikings! How ya'all losers like them apples?" "Space Marines have short cropped hair and shave their faces so they can properly seal their helmets without worrying about compromising the eviro-seals." "Oh yeah? Pony tails and beards all around!"
Crimson Fists 
Orks
Sisters of Battle 
Imperial Guard 
Renegades - 
Desert Hunters of Vior'la 
The Purge 
Adepts of Pestilence 
Tallaran Desert Raiders 
Grey Knight Teleport Assault Force
