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 Red Corsair wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Angry nerd-fight below:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Worst reasoning ever. Hey this one time there was a Greek named Achilles who was the best swordsman to ever live, yet another Greek named Odysseus was SUPER smart and clever, therefore ALL Greeks from then on MUST be mentally and physically superior to any other human.

Just because Sigismund was handy in combat doesn't mean all Black templars are the best. Also note that it never says he was the best, only that he defeated every champion he met. Not to reign on your parade but every chaos champion I own dies in challenges fairly easily

If Achilles started a order of swordsmen and passed down his teachings to it, forming it in his image, with a focus on swordsmanship, I'd imagine that the order would be pretty damn good at swordsmanship.


Finally, there's been nothing mentioned that backs up the allegations that Space Wolves are better at Close Combat than the Black Templars at all.

This is still idiotic reasoning. He can be the greatest duelist ever and it means nothing when comparing his chapters initiates. Heck Micheal Jordan can give me personal lessons for the rest of my life and I'll never be as good as he is. BTW whos chapter didn't have some amazing hero from the great crusade Get over it.

I'm going to "get over it" when someone posts solid arguments in favour of why the Space Wolves are better at close combat than just "because I say so".

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You said the Templars lacked covering fire. The LRC is a line-breaker tank, built for the sole purpouse of keeping the enemy down with suppressive fire while it delivers the unit inside into the fray. You generally don't use anti-tank weapons for suppressive fire last time I looked.

It's okay to admit you don't look very often.

Wikipedia wrote:Machine gun fire is also available from armoured fighting vehicles and aircraft, notably helicopters and perhaps fixed wing aircraft such as AC-130. Automatic cannon (20 - 40 mm) or grenade fire may also be available and fire from larger direct fire systems such as tanks. However, limited ammunition loads mean that such systems are better suited to destructive fire against precisely identified targets unless the required suppression time period is short.

Emphasis mine. Would you mind giving some examples of when you'd use anti-tank weapons for suppressive fire as opposed to just going for ad hominem attacks? You know, argue the point, not the person?

What, IMO, they should have done was just have 3 SC for each named Chapter/CT.

Reduces cheese factor of best "SCs" always being used, regardless of their background and the apparent monopoly of the Ultramarines in fielding them.

 Mr Morden wrote:
What, IMO, they should have done was just have 3 SC for each named Chapter/CT.

Reduces cheese factor of best "SCs" always being used, regardless of their background and the apparent monopoly of the Ultramarines in fielding them.

So they should have told people that two SC models are now not usable at all. Then not given the list ANY new units or updates of old models as you're just getting 13 New character models most of which will only be use able by a small minority of players. What a fantastic business plan that would be for the companies MOST important army release

 FlingitNow wrote:

So they should have told people that two SC models are now not usable at all.

They would be perfectly usable as regular characters.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
What, IMO, they should have done was just have 3 SC for each named Chapter/CT.

Reduces cheese factor of best "SCs" always being used, regardless of their background and the apparent monopoly of the Ultramarines in fielding them.

So they should have told people that two SC models are now not usable at all. Then not given the list ANY new units or updates of old models as you're just getting 13 New character models most of which will only be use able by a small minority of players. What a fantastic business plan that would be for the companies MOST important army release

Its what normally happens to other Codexes and Army Books - Sepcial Characters come and go in both WFB and 40K - its Always been this way, I have plenty of SC's for all sorts of armies on my shelves that no longer have rules.............

Who said anything about no new units - stop making things up and actually read and consider the post - apparently YOU have to have nine otherwise you are somehow at a disadvantage - what a shame.........plus as noted above its not like you can't use them as other things.

Why would they not want to make new SC figures to sell to people for this new release, instead if the pile of S%&t that are the Centurion models.

You need to understand that is being presented as no longer Codex: Ultramarines - but Codex: Space Marines - consequently ALL highlghted Chapters should have the same treament - unless you feel that your (and only your) army needs ultra-special treatment (again).

 Mr Morden wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
What, IMO, they should have done was just have 3 SC for each named Chapter/CT.

Reduces cheese factor of best "SCs" always being used, regardless of their background and the apparent monopoly of the Ultramarines in fielding them.

So they should have told people that two SC models are now not usable at all. Then not given the list ANY new units or updates of old models as you're just getting 13 New character models most of which will only be use able by a small minority of players. What a fantastic business plan that would be for the companies MOST important army release

Its what normally happens to other Codexes and Army Books - Sepcial Characters come and go in both WFB and 40K - its Always been this way, I have plenty of SC's for all sorts of armies on my shelves that no longer have rules.............

Who said anything about no new units - stop making things up and actually read and consider the post - apparently YOU have to have nine otherwise you are somehow at a disadvantage - what a shame.........plus as noted above its not like you can't use them as other things.

Why would they not want to make new SC figures to sell to people for this new release, instead if the pile of S%&t that are the Centurion models.

You need to understand that is being presented as no longer Codex: Ultramarines - but Codex: Space Marines - consequently ALL highlghted Chapters should have the same treament - unless you feel that your (and only your) army needs ultra-special treatment (again).

All of the non-Ultramarines armies are getting more representation out of this book more so than they have any other book before this, at this point. They aren't removing any special characters from the game, nor are they adding in any (unless you consider the three Black Templar ones as 'adding in').

Crying that this codex is super Ultramarines favored, especially considering that they made this book so huge in an attempt to tap every single one of the 'main' 40k chapters, is moronic. If you want to use your Tigurius, all you simply need to do is use the Ultramarines tactics for that game. It doesn't stop you from having your Iron Hands painted in black and silver or your Salamanders all green and fiery.

There's no need for them to remove any of the special characters, unless they wished to attempt to appease bitter people like yourself. However, I imagine, if they have the choice between keeping the characters in and keeping customers happy, or appeasing angry people who'd just find another reason to be angry, they'll choose the former.

Get over yourself and your chosen color scheme for your marines.

Wow - pity you did not actually read my post or you could have replied in a constructive way........

1. I did not say they were removing SCs - only that they should treat all the Chapters the same - but apparently you feel that only Ultramarines should get SCs - special snowflakes that they are.

2. I have an Ultramarine, Space Wolves and Dark Angels army - so again you are barking up the wrong tree mate if you think I am crying over my own Chapters.

3. You should look at your own rant and consider who is angry.

I totally agree with Mr Morden and Crimson: Putting in some generic SCs like a veteran scout (Telion) or a first company captain (kantor) and making them available for all chapters would have been a better decision than keeping thid Codex Codex:Ultramarines* (*with sime extras) and keeping any "true" SCs for Supplements. I can either throw away my counts-as Kantor or my counts-as Telion, of course i could use allies but then my imperial guard or necron allies are gone...

Except that kantor is a chapter master not a captain. You might be thinking of lysander?

I know that Kantor is a chapter master, but i thought having a first company captain might be a good reason to have scoring sternguard, rather than Kantors fluff reason. Would be neat to have companies to make different non-tacticals scoring/troops.

Anyway, while I am looking forward to the release but i suppose one can't have everything...

TBH if they were adding special characters at all, from the start, it should have been the chapter masters of each founding chapter, and mabey a few other guys of different disciplines.

I mean.......... the chapter masters are epic heroes ulike any other in the imperium and command the mightiest strike forces in the galaxey.

You keep the generic chapter master there just in case people wanna make up their own guy, but the founding chapters leaders should all be named and known.

Keeping tigurius and lysander would be fine since those 2 are epic, but somone like chronos could have been tossed for an Iron Hands character easily.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Wow - pity you did not actually read my post or you could have replied in a constructive way........

1. I did not say they were removing SCs - only that they should treat all the Chapters the same - but apparently you feel that only Ultramarines should get SCs - special snowflakes that they are.

2. I have an Ultramarine, Space Wolves and Dark Angels army - so again you are barking up the wrong tree mate if you think I am crying over my own Chapters.

3. You should look at your own rant and consider who is angry.

1: You implied that you would want to see Ultramarines Special Characters removed in your previous post, due to the fact that other chapters don't have as many special characters. Rather than remove them, they could have added more, or, can add them in supplements down the line. Why should already existing special characters be removed in place of new ones? In fact, as i'll discuss below, the only Ultramarines Special Character that is worth his points as things look now is Tigurius - and even that is debatable.

Not everyone is going to get equal attention. Not all Eldar Craftworlds get the same love in Codex: Eldar, or all the Dark Eldar Cabals. Hell, the Chaos Marine book is the most even handed one in those regards, but any Undivided legion other than the Black Legion gets screwed, too. There is a far larger uproar about Codex: Space Marine's Special Characters than any other - and it's frankly getting ridiculous.

3: I'm hardly angry. More tired of whining about Special Characters. Honestly, if someone wants to use Tigurius, they can take the Ultramarines chapter tactics. If someone wants to represent the Ultramarines First Company going to war, well, they can play Dark Angels. Or, run Crimson Fists/Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics.

And honestly, the vast majority of the Ultramarine Special Characters are pretty much worthless in a more 'competitive' game. Marneus Calgar can have 3 Warlord traits and gets buffs to God of War! All for 275pts, and he'll still probably lose to Abaddon and a good chance to lose against Draigo or Lysander. Sure, it provides strategic buffs to the army, but you'd probably be better off with Tigirius for a whole hell of a lot cheaper. Chaplains (Cassius) are hardly ever worth their points, as being stuck with an AP4 weapon when designed for Close Combat is pretty lame. Getting Hatred rather than Litanies of Hate will be great, but... I suppose, depending on the points cost of a normal chaplain, his T6 and FNP would be worth it, but, if Chaplains went down a decent amount...

Sicarius is 185pts now, but granting a free ability to a tactical squad, plus mediocre combat abilities, still isn't that great.

The only Ultramarine Character that'll be worth it, really, is most likely Tigurius. But, Kantor is useful, as is Vulkan. Lysander is still probably the best Combat Character in the book, even with his price hike. (Then again, if we can buy EW via relics, a bog standard Chapter Master might have him beat in that regard)

As for Telion, it even says in his fluff blurb that he goes and hangs out with other chapters that are close to the Ultramarines. Likely, they too follow the Ultramarines Doctrines. (But this is Okay, since if you are using Scouts, you'll probably be using Raven Guard or something - and Telion's stealth would be wasted)

As for Chronus... did anyone pay his stupid points costs outside of Apocalypse on a LR Terminus?

As for 'fluffy' games, you could always just ally in your Telion or what have you, and just make sure they have something to distinguish them. For example... being a different company.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Keeping tigurius and lysander would be fine since those 2 are epic, but somone like chronos could have been tossed for an Iron Hands character easily.

My thoughts exactly. Even if it was just like a switch in Chapters for the SCs.

example:
Chronus > Iron Hands
Telion > Raven Guard
etc.

They could have kept the abilities but changed the chapter and names. Hell they could have feasibly even kept the names.

Crazyterran wrote:


And honestly, the vast majority of the Ultramarine Special Characters are pretty much worthless in a more 'competitive' game. Marneus Calgar can have 3 Warlord traits and gets buffs to God of War! All for 275pts, and he'll still probably lose to Abaddon and a good chance to lose against Draigo or Lysander.

Draigo's AP3 Titansword is going to do diddly-squad to Marneus.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:


And honestly, the vast majority of the Ultramarine Special Characters are pretty much worthless in a more 'competitive' game. Marneus Calgar can have 3 Warlord traits and gets buffs to God of War! All for 275pts, and he'll still probably lose to Abaddon and a good chance to lose against Draigo or Lysander.

Draigo's AP3 Titansword is going to do diddly-squad to Marneus.

Ahhh, for some reason I was under the impression that Draigo had an AP2 sword.

While they obviously aren't removing UM characters, and probably (well, hopefully) are waiting for supplements to add SCs to other chapters, I will say that I would have been a-ok with them removing SCs from UM to even things up.

After all, if IH players have to wait for a supplement to get even 1 character (and many people have told IH and other chapter players to chill out because they're presumably getting SCs later), then it would have been perfectly fair to make UM players wait for a UM supplement to get back 1 or 2 of their SCs.

After all, turnabout is fair play.

DogofWar1 wrote:
While they obviously aren't removing UM characters, and probably (well, hopefully) are waiting for supplements to add SCs to other chapters, I will say that I would have been a-ok with them removing SCs from UM to even things up.

After all, if IH players have to wait for a supplement to get even 1 character (and many people have told IH and other chapter players to chill out because they're presumably getting SCs later), then it would have been perfectly fair to make UM players wait for a UM supplement to get back 1 or 2 of their SCs.

After all, turnabout is fair play.

Which is the dumbest reasoning of all time for any characters to be removed.

EDIT: If Iron Hands get anything in their supplement, I'd rather it be Iron Fathers (Captains/MotF mixed in some interesting way) and the option to buy TDA for their Tac Marine sergeants, than a special character. After all, the Iron Hands operate in self-sufficient Clan Companies rather than as a chapter, and are probably more divergent from the Codex than some of the Chapters that got their own books.

Crazyterran wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:
While they obviously aren't removing UM characters, and probably (well, hopefully) are waiting for supplements to add SCs to other chapters, I will say that I would have been a-ok with them removing SCs from UM to even things up.

After all, if IH players have to wait for a supplement to get even 1 character (and many people have told IH and other chapter players to chill out because they're presumably getting SCs later), then it would have been perfectly fair to make UM players wait for a UM supplement to get back 1 or 2 of their SCs.

After all, turnabout is fair play.

Which is the dumbest reasoning of all time for any characters to be removed.

Removing characters would have indeed been aggressive, which is why I wouldn't advocate for doing that, but players (often UM players) telling other chapters to sit down and chill out and wait for their supplement is annoying. Maybe if they had to sit through a wait for SCs, they would understand and be more sympathetic to the fact that GW just severely limited how people can play the game. All these artificial walls are getting put up for other chapter's players, and yet UM gets away largely unscathed (sure, they lose access to the non-UM SCs, but while they lose access to 5 characters, everyone else lost access to 8 characters and 2 upgrade character).

And the isn't aimed at you, but there have been others here and around the interwebs who have basically told other chapters to calm down and just wait.

DogofWar1 wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:
While they obviously aren't removing UM characters, and probably (well, hopefully) are waiting for supplements to add SCs to other chapters, I will say that I would have been a-ok with them removing SCs from UM to even things up.

After all, if IH players have to wait for a supplement to get even 1 character (and many people have told IH and other chapter players to chill out because they're presumably getting SCs later), then it would have been perfectly fair to make UM players wait for a UM supplement to get back 1 or 2 of their SCs.

After all, turnabout is fair play.

Which is the dumbest reasoning of all time for any characters to be removed.

Removing characters would have indeed been aggressive, which is why I wouldn't advocate for doing that, but players (often UM players) telling other chapters to sit down and chill out and wait for their supplement is annoying. Maybe if they had to sit through a wait for SCs, they would understand and be more sympathetic to the fact that GW just severely limited how people can play the game. All these artificial walls are getting put up for other chapter's players, and yet UM gets away largely unscathed (sure, they lose access to the non-UM SCs, but while they lose access to 5 characters, everyone else lost access to 8 characters and 2 upgrade character).

In reality, nobody is losing access to anything, since you can just use the UM Chapter Tactics.

What people are losing are the ability to mix and match SCs and min-max the Chapter Tactics. (For example, Pedro with Combi-Weapon Sternguard using Salamanders or Ultramarines chapter tactics)

EDIT: Really, all that's changing is that instead of having Combat Tactics base, you get to pick one variant of Chapter Tactics instead, and can use characters depending on what you pick.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Angry nerd-fight below:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Worst reasoning ever. Hey this one time there was a Greek named Achilles who was the best swordsman to ever live, yet another Greek named Odysseus was SUPER smart and clever, therefore ALL Greeks from then on MUST be mentally and physically superior to any other human.

Just because Sigismund was handy in combat doesn't mean all Black templars are the best. Also note that it never says he was the best, only that he defeated every champion he met. Not to reign on your parade but every chaos champion I own dies in challenges fairly easily

If Achilles started a order of swordsmen and passed down his teachings to it, forming it in his image, with a focus on swordsmanship, I'd imagine that the order would be pretty damn good at swordsmanship.


Finally, there's been nothing mentioned that backs up the allegations that Space Wolves are better at Close Combat than the Black Templars at all.

This is still idiotic reasoning. He can be the greatest duelist ever and it means nothing when comparing his chapters initiates. Heck Micheal Jordan can give me personal lessons for the rest of my life and I'll never be as good as he is. BTW whos chapter didn't have some amazing hero from the great crusade Get over it.

I'm going to "get over it" when someone posts solid arguments in favour of why the Space Wolves are better at close combat than just "because I say so".

Well, obviously they both shine in their own respected fluff. There isn't a codex written that undermines it's chapter in it's fluff. So clearly all we are left with is the opinion of the games developers which shine through the rules they write. SW are better at CC then BT, back in third with the tiny codex I played my SW and my bro played templars and we would have massed infantry battle in CC and you know what conclusion we came to in ~100 games? That my SW had an unbalanced favor in CC which is why I won ~80+ times out of that 100. It was when he played more to the mission then me and beat the clock that he would win. I don't think their has been a BT book where they really out shine the wolves. This should be your proof.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


I'm going to "get over it" when someone posts solid arguments in favour of why the Space Wolves are better at close combat than just "because I say so".

Cuz Games Workshop says so. (in their rules)

Crazyterran wrote:
Not everyone is going to get equal attention. Not all Eldar Craftworlds get the same love in Codex: Eldar, or all the Dark Eldar Cabals. Hell, the Chaos Marine book is the most even handed one in those regards, but any Undivided legion other than the Black Legion gets screwed, too. There is a far larger uproar about Codex: Space Marine's Special Characters than any other - and it's frankly getting ridiculous.

This is where you mix up what you're arguing. The point is, every codex you mentioned gives players the freedom to mix characters as they like. I can take Eldrad and Yriel in the same army, or Vect and the Baron, or even Kharn and Ahriman. The problem is they are imposing this artificial limitation on who you can take with who, and getting rid of the counts-as option that's been around forever. So previously, you could take Kantor to get scoring Sternguard, and Lysander to just beat face in a Crimson Fist army, and say "Yeah this is Tim. He's super good with a hammer. He's a counts-as for Lysander." And now, based on what Chapter Tactics you want to use, you run into varying degrees of limitations. Mixing characters is no more "powergaming" or "WAAC" than any other combination of effective units, and their reasoning for not allowing it is kind of half-assed, especially when they don't give equal representation to all the armies in the book.

Happens when the fluff for the chapters is diffrent. they can eather let everyone run chapter masters and specials from multiple chapters (because we know how often the chapter masters join up with other chapters)

or

they can limit what chapter masters can go with who

or they can make it vanilla marine codex and give out no chapter masters

or make it vanilla with the UM and no one else...

Being that it's games workshop, and they care less about what power list can be made, and more about the fluff (to whatever they change it to this edition) they chose to let each chapter be represented, but limit who can go with who. not a big deal really.

I understand why they did it, but (speaking as someone who doesn't play marines) it does seem like a pretty big deal. Of course these specific characters don't join up often in the fluff, but your counts-as captain who uses a set of rules represented by this model will join up with anyone you please. Once they hit the table, all a special character is is a collection of rules, typically ones you can't get just with wargear on a stock HQ. It doesn't seem very sporting when no other army restricts how you mix these rule-blobs, but then marine players get... not exactly screwed, cause this sounds like a good book, but maybe their toes stubbed a little.

Can someone please fill me in on when this "video" will be shown with all of the cool me space marine rules?
Thanks guys!

SMMSjosh14 wrote:
Can someone please fill me in on when this "video" will be shown with all of the cool me space marine rules?
Thanks guys!

The "Podcast" will be up sometime by Monday. They're recording it today.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Why would they not want to make new SC figures to sell to people for this new release, instead if the pile of S%&t that are the Centurion models.

You need to understand that is being presented as no longer Codex: Ultramarines - but Codex: Space Marines - consequently ALL highlghted Chapters should have the same treament - unless you feel that your (and only your) army needs ultra-special treatment (again).

Lets see, add a bunch of sculpts and rules that only 1/7 of the players who use the book will buy a single copy of, or a plastic unit that all players can take as many as 36 in a list.

Brother Weasel wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


I'm going to "get over it" when someone posts solid arguments in favour of why the Space Wolves are better at close combat than just "because I say so".

Cuz Games Workshop says so. (in their rules)

this could be a fun discusion, on another thread

Crazyterran wrote:


In reality, nobody is losing access to anything, since you can just use the UM Chapter Tactics.

What people are losing are the ability to mix and match SCs and min-max the Chapter Tactics. (For example, Pedro with Combi-Weapon Sternguard using Salamanders or Ultramarines chapter tactics)

EDIT: Really, all that's changing is that instead of having Combat Tactics base, you get to pick one variant of Chapter Tactics instead, and can use characters depending on what you pick.

And why isn't losing the ability to mix and match SCs losing something? It is a wall that is being put up limiting how players play their armies.

Imagine if Eldar could only choose SCs by craftworld, or CSM by traitor legion, it would be a wall that was put up that may keep you from playing how you wish to play, and IMO the best way to make the game fun is to give more options, not less, which is what is happening here.

If some combination of SCs is broken, then they could fix that while they're writing the codex, or maybe get a writer to write some story into the codex about how Lysander and Vulkan pissed each other off on some backwater planet and as such can't be in the same FOC and must be allied in. It would not have been hard to remove the cheese combinations while keeping more options available, but that was not the path they chose.

Consider that:
UM: 6 SCs (two of which are upgrades)
Chaos: 7 SCs
Eldar: 9 SCs + Avatar of Khaine
SW: 8 SCs (2 of which are upgrades)
DA: 5 SCs
GK: 8 SCs (1 upgrade)
Necrons: 7 SCs
DE: 8 SCs
Tyranids: 5 SCs (though only 2 in HQ, the rest scattered among elites and HS)
BA: 8 SCs (2 upgrades)
Tau: 6 SCs (1 upgrade)
Daemons: 9 SCs
Orks: 4 SCs
IG: 12 SCs (all over the book though)
BT: 2 SCs
IF: 1 SC
WS: 1 SC
CF: 1 SC
Salamanders: 1 SC
RG: 1 SC
IH: 0 SCs

It's a restraint on play style that they could have easily avoided and balanced, but they didn't, and now they're restricting play styles, while *maybe* giving us options back later with supplements that you have to buy.

Crazyterran wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Wow - pity you did not actually read my post or you could have replied in a constructive way........

1. I did not say they were removing SCs - only that they should treat all the Chapters the same - but apparently you feel that only Ultramarines should get SCs - special snowflakes that they are.

2. I have an Ultramarine, Space Wolves and Dark Angels army - so again you are barking up the wrong tree mate if you think I am crying over my own Chapters.

3. You should look at your own rant and consider who is angry.

1: You implied that you would want to see Ultramarines Special Characters removed in your previous post, due to the fact that other chapters don't have as many special characters. Rather than remove them, they could have added more, or, can add them in supplements down the line. Why should already existing special characters be removed in place of new ones? In fact, as i'll discuss below, the only Ultramarines Special Character that is worth his points as things look now is Tigurius - and even that is debatable.

Not everyone is going to get equal attention. Not all Eldar Craftworlds get the same love in Codex: Eldar, or all the Dark Eldar Cabals. Hell, the Chaos Marine book is the most even handed one in those regards, but any Undivided legion other than the Black Legion gets screwed, too. There is a far larger uproar about Codex: Space Marine's Special Characters than any other - and it's frankly getting ridiculous.

3: I'm hardly angry. More tired of whining about Special Characters. Honestly, if someone wants to use Tigurius, they can take the Ultramarines chapter tactics. If someone wants to represent the Ultramarines First Company going to war, well, they can play Dark Angels. Or, run Crimson Fists/Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics.

And honestly, the vast majority of the Ultramarine Special Characters are pretty much worthless in a more 'competitive' game. Marneus Calgar can have 3 Warlord traits and gets buffs to God of War! All for 275pts, and he'll still probably lose to Abaddon and a good chance to lose against Draigo or Lysander. Sure, it provides strategic buffs to the army, but you'd probably be better off with Tigirius for a whole hell of a lot cheaper. Chaplains (Cassius) are hardly ever worth their points, as being stuck with an AP4 weapon when designed for Close Combat is pretty lame. Getting Hatred rather than Litanies of Hate will be great, but... I suppose, depending on the points cost of a normal chaplain, his T6 and FNP would be worth it, but, if Chaplains went down a decent amount...

Sicarius is 185pts now, but granting a free ability to a tactical squad, plus mediocre combat abilities, still isn't that great.

The only Ultramarine Character that'll be worth it, really, is most likely Tigurius. But, Kantor is useful, as is Vulkan. Lysander is still probably the best Combat Character in the book, even with his price hike. (Then again, if we can buy EW via relics, a bog standard Chapter Master might have him beat in that regard)

As for Telion, it even says in his fluff blurb that he goes and hangs out with other chapters that are close to the Ultramarines. Likely, they too follow the Ultramarines Doctrines. (But this is Okay, since if you are using Scouts, you'll probably be using Raven Guard or something - and Telion's stealth would be wasted)

As for Chronus... did anyone pay his stupid points costs outside of Apocalypse on a LR Terminus?

As for 'fluffy' games, you could always just ally in your Telion or what have you, and just make sure they have something to distinguish them. For example... being a different company.

What I said was - what I felt they should have done and I stick by that...............it would have made sure that not only do we get new SC models, we also get some new fluff on Chapters that are under represented.....which is sorely needed. Whereas what we do get is Centurions - awesome

You then go one to say that most of the Ultramarine SC are pointless - so what's the issue with taking some out and ether making them more generic or putting in new ones that can be used effectively. You cna still use the models as Chapter Masters, Captains etc unless you subscribe to some wierd idea that they can only represent the specific SC...........

The Eldar example doesn't compare as there are not restrictions on the SC that can be used together. I get the impression if they had been "even handed" and they had just put in 3 really good Ultramarine SCs it would have been you screaming and shouting about how your Chapter had been stripped of its fluffy chacraters (that also according to you don't really work, or are overpriced and no one uses).

As I mentioned before I don't have an bias towards one army so perhaps I can see it more objectively....................