Team America goes to etc

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**Grimwulfe**

Blackmoor wrote:
MarkyMark wrote:
Wasn’t the ETC based on Fifa rules for countries?, I seem to remember something like that.

Yes. That is why they are treated as 4 different countries in the ETC because of that precedent.

America has no idea what the FIFA is because soccer is not very popular here. That is why the Europeans see them as 4 separate countries because they always compete in the most popular sport in Europe as 4 separate countries, so it is natural to them that they do it in 40k the same way.

Since the US has not had any interest in soccer we only see the UK operating as one country in the Olympics and the UN etc.

That is why there is a large disconnect with the US and European’s view of how the UK is treated.

As an American can I say please stop lumping us into your generalizations. I happen to know what FIFA is and happen to recognize Scotland, Ireland and such as seperate from England. Even though I am not a soccer (football) fan!

What I would love to see is the ETC move into a more world wide venue much like the olympics where all countries involved have a chance to host etc. That being said I see the merits of having 2 teams from the US but also see the negatives. With the US being so large it makes sence to seperate it regionally however as guests of our European hosts I think we should be perfectly happy with 1 team and the simple fact we get to hang out with such grreat gamers to begin with.

**DaddyWarcrimes**

Given that the US took 3 of the top 5 spots in the Singles tournament, and had the winner two years running now, I can't imagine the team is suffering from a lack of player talent.

**Dozer Blades**

A lot of the resistance within the ETC towards the US having more than one team comes from the UK - it must be a touchy subject for them.

**sabote**

Breng77 wrote:
sabote wrote:
Blackmoor wrote:
Alkasyn wrote:
As a general comment on all the remarks about how "Scotland is not a country"

#1. As far as the USA is concerned Scotland is not a country. Europeans might think of them more as a country because they traditionally operate in sports as one, but to the US they are part of the country of the United Kingdom.

Alkasyn wrote:
"It is easier to travel from one backwater country in Europe to another one" I just want to say that there is a lot to learn by some people posting in this thread.

#2. You kind of lumped two of my comments together. They were:

Blackmoor wrote:
Not only will the ETC never allow it, but you will never be able to get the16 of the best 40k gamers in the US to travel to the backwaters of Europe just for a tournament.

The ETC was held in Novi Sad Serbia. To give some perspective, this city has the population of Laredo Texas and the closest airport to it is in Belgrade 80km away. This is not a major city, and lacks any reason to go to it other than the ETC. I also hear that they try to keep the ETC near Eastern Europe because travel for them is harder and more expensive than for the Western Europeans, and the reason that the ETC will not be held in England.

Blackmoor wrote:
Those countries have a lot easier time knowing who their best players are (since they are all at the same tournaments), but also the travel to the ETC is not an issue so they can have them all go.

The distances from European counties to each other are quite small compared to travel in the US. Even London to Belgrade is only 1049 miles which is shorter than the distance from New York to Miami.

This is a troll post right? I mean outside of the fact that while most Americans dont understand the make up of the United Kingdom and such. Ok I can let that pass. Than you get to the "they" try to keep the ETC in Eastern Europe for expence? Really? What is Germany, Switzerland and is not the one next year in France? While cost may be a part its really about the package put forth by the team sponsoring it. If cheap was what they wanted, Switzerland would have been rules out before the bid even was sent. Finally just trying flying to Moscow from the UK and see how long it takes. In fact even from Switzerland it is still a good flight.

Wow- I give you plus 1 for troll posting

So not saying travelling is nothing (don't know laws and such) but Moscow to London is about a 3.5 hour flight.

New York (probably the closest US airport or at least one of them) to London is ~7.5 hours....hardly really comparable. The flight time from New York To San Fransisco is nearly 6 hours. So Barring Drive times US travel is significantly more timewise than any other country involved (after all we are the only country crossing a ocean). Now I'm not saying that this means we definitely should have a second team, but when travel time across our country equates to travel time across Europe, it says something.

Throw in population. as of 2010 all of Europe had 711,064,145 vs US 316,444,000, So a little more than twice as many people. With Russia being the Largest at about half of US population.

Russia 142,905,208
Germany 81,757,600
Spain 47,150,800
Poland 38,192,000
France 65,460,000
United Kingdom 62,041,708

Again this does not me we "deserve" another team...there is no reason we need be invited at all. Just that perhaps it is more difficult for the US to find the 8 best players in a a land area of 9,827,000 Sq KM when all of Europe is 10,180,000 (not including mostly asian Russia as it is not densly populated, and I doubt their players are really coming from there.). Essentially we are attempting to find 8 players from an area the Size of Europe and with half the population of all of Europe. Where each of the other 27 teams is drawing from a much smaller portion.

I never argued population. The discussion is how the UK is viewed. Do I think the US should have two teams sure. Do I understand the make up of the UK , yes. Do I agree with it, no. But at least I understand the reasoning. I send my life traveling SF to Chicago to NY to just about anywhere in Europe. So I get the travel more than you can imagine. That being said, once you go over 3 hours so what its still a long flight. The first post made it sound like everything is a 30 min flight for the majority of teams.

**MarkyMark**

Really?, check the thread on the warhammer forum, not that much resistance from the UK compared to the other replies. Plus the fact your only valid point as to why USA should have more then one team is that the UK do which is completely ignoring the fact that the Fifa system was used and thats how they classify it.

**Blackmoor**

Grimwulfe wrote:
Blackmoor wrote:
MarkyMark wrote:
Wasn’t the ETC based on Fifa rules for countries?, I seem to remember something like that.

Yes. That is why they are treated as 4 different countries in the ETC because of that precedent.

America has no idea what the FIFA is because soccer is not very popular here. That is why the Europeans see them as 4 separate countries because they always compete in the most popular sport in Europe as 4 separate countries, so it is natural to them that they do it in 40k the same way.

Since the US has not had any interest in soccer we only see the UK operating as one country in the Olympics and the UN etc.

That is why there is a large disconnect with the US and European’s view of how the UK is treated.

As an American can I say please stop lumping us into your generalizations. I happen to know what FIFA is and happen to recognize Scotland, Ireland and such as seperate from England. Even though I am not a soccer (football) fan!

I was explaining why there is a disconnect with the US and European views of Scotland as a country. It is a generalization so some people will not be included.

Thank you for going on record that you know what FIFA is because that was very helpful. I would like to congratulate you in your recognition of Ireland as separate country from England.

**Breng77**

sabote wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
sabote wrote:
Blackmoor wrote:
Alkasyn wrote:
As a general comment on all the remarks about how "Scotland is not a country"

#1. As far as the USA is concerned Scotland is not a country. Europeans might think of them more as a country because they traditionally operate in sports as one, but to the US they are part of the country of the United Kingdom.

Alkasyn wrote:
"It is easier to travel from one backwater country in Europe to another one" I just want to say that there is a lot to learn by some people posting in this thread.

#2. You kind of lumped two of my comments together. They were:

Blackmoor wrote:
Not only will the ETC never allow it, but you will never be able to get the16 of the best 40k gamers in the US to travel to the backwaters of Europe just for a tournament.

The ETC was held in Novi Sad Serbia. To give some perspective, this city has the population of Laredo Texas and the closest airport to it is in Belgrade 80km away. This is not a major city, and lacks any reason to go to it other than the ETC. I also hear that they try to keep the ETC near Eastern Europe because travel for them is harder and more expensive than for the Western Europeans, and the reason that the ETC will not be held in England.

Blackmoor wrote:
Those countries have a lot easier time knowing who their best players are (since they are all at the same tournaments), but also the travel to the ETC is not an issue so they can have them all go.

The distances from European counties to each other are quite small compared to travel in the US. Even London to Belgrade is only 1049 miles which is shorter than the distance from New York to Miami.

This is a troll post right? I mean outside of the fact that while most Americans dont understand the make up of the United Kingdom and such. Ok I can let that pass. Than you get to the "they" try to keep the ETC in Eastern Europe for expence? Really? What is Germany, Switzerland and is not the one next year in France? While cost may be a part its really about the package put forth by the team sponsoring it. If cheap was what they wanted, Switzerland would have been rules out before the bid even was sent. Finally just trying flying to Moscow from the UK and see how long it takes. In fact even from Switzerland it is still a good flight.

Wow- I give you plus 1 for troll posting

So not saying travelling is nothing (don't know laws and such) but Moscow to London is about a 3.5 hour flight.

New York (probably the closest US airport or at least one of them) to London is ~7.5 hours....hardly really comparable. The flight time from New York To San Fransisco is nearly 6 hours. So Barring Drive times US travel is significantly more timewise than any other country involved (after all we are the only country crossing a ocean). Now I'm not saying that this means we definitely should have a second team, but when travel time across our country equates to travel time across Europe, it says something.

Throw in population. as of 2010 all of Europe had 711,064,145 vs US 316,444,000, So a little more than twice as many people. With Russia being the Largest at about half of US population.

Russia 142,905,208
Germany 81,757,600
Spain 47,150,800
Poland 38,192,000
France 65,460,000
United Kingdom 62,041,708

Again this does not me we "deserve" another team...there is no reason we need be invited at all. Just that perhaps it is more difficult for the US to find the 8 best players in a a land area of 9,827,000 Sq KM when all of Europe is 10,180,000 (not including mostly asian Russia as it is not densly populated, and I doubt their players are really coming from there.). Essentially we are attempting to find 8 players from an area the Size of Europe and with half the population of all of Europe. Where each of the other 27 teams is drawing from a much smaller portion.

I never argued population. The discussion is how the UK is viewed. Do I think the US should have two teams sure. Do I understand the make up of the UK , yes. Do I agree with it, no. But at least I understand the reasoning. I send my life traveling SF to Chicago to NY to just about anywhere in Europe. So I get the travel more than you can imagine. That being said, once you go over 3 hours so what its still a long flight. The first post made it sound like everything is a 30 min flight for the majority of teams.

See to me a 3 hour flight it quite a bit different from a 7 or 8 hour flight. I think the general point about travel was within countries, that essentially traveling from country to country was no different for Players in the US traveling from state to state for event (except for laws about crossing borders where they exist). Futher the point within Countries was that Top players can more easily be at every event in say England/Germany/Poland than they can in the US since driving to those events is not really much different than US players driving within state (obviously state dependent).

That said I see no reason why we need 2 teams, if we had top players clamoring to go and feeling left out, I could see it but the expense of traveling etc, keep many away. Also I could see the argument more if we were routinely dominating the competition, then we would have an argument about "hey we have so many good players that our second team would do well." This is not the case. I think we need a better selection method (perhaps average finish at a series of large events + army played at those events, as it does not help us to have 8 really good Tau players for example.), and to have the selections made early so guys can prepare.

**Sigvatr**

ETC follows the UEFA ruling for team selection, that's why the US get one team and Great Britan gets 4 teams.

This is a debatable point of view and I, personally, consider this to be outdated. The UEFA focuses on football and, frankly, the US doesn't give a damn about football at all (AE: soccer). Warhammer is a totally different case - it's extremely popular in the US. That's why I think that the entire UEFA thing needs to be thought over again.

...but alas, that is my very own opinion. It's shared by some, and opposed by others, with the latter currently being the majority.

It's a good thing, though, that the US team did so good, especially in regards to their very sportsmanlike behavior. Gives the pro "more teams for US" side a bit more weight.

Oh, and: Scotland is NOT a country. Wales is NOT a country. Drop that argument please.

**Grimwulfe**

Damn typos.

The simple fact we are invited and are able to partake in this event should be enough. We have a team which are great players and have proven themselves time and time again. If the system was based off of an already established system then so be it. If your butt hurt about then do something about it and get on the team. There are plenty of opportunities to do so.

**sabote**

Dozer Blades wrote:
A lot of the resistance within the ETC towards the US having more than one team comes from the UK - it must be a touchy subject for them.

I dont think its really a resistance. However they are a bit touchy with Americans not understanding why they are different. Does not matter if you agree with it or not I think it has more to do with understanding the history of how they got to where they are at currently. BTW they are just as guilty as many Americans in lumping us all together as one and not recognizing the difference between areas of the country much less how many states can be very different.

**jamin484**

v wrote:
ETC follows the UEFA ruling for team selection, that's why the US get one team and Great Britan gets 4 teams.

This is a debatable point of view and I, personally, consider this to be outdated. The UEFA focuses on football and, frankly, the US doesn't give a damn about football at all (AE: soccer). Warhammer is a totally different case - it's extremely popular in the US. That's why I think that the entire UEFA thing needs to be thought over again.

...but alas, that is my very own opinion. It's shared by some, and opposed by others, with the latter currently being the majority.

It's a good thing, though, that the US team did so good, especially in regards to their very sportsmanlike behavior. Gives the pro "more teams for US" side a bit more weight.

Oh, and: Scotland is NOT a country. Wales is NOT a country. Drop that argument please.

Germany is not a country either mate, just a small part of a federal Europe.

Alright I admit it, I have forayed into trolling now. I will cease.

On a serious note the Australians enter a team as do Singapore, Canada and the Kiwis. This shows that it is a worldwide event as opposed to Europe plus America. I think every American state should be able to enter if they want. I'm proud of my wee jock team and imagine that americans would be equally proud of their own state teams.

I am slightly alarmed to learn from Sigvatr that my country does not exist. I think I'm about to suffer an identity crisis....

**Sigvatr**

Scotland isn't an individual country like France or Germany, they are officially part of the United Kingdom. Ireland is an exception and is its own country (as a whole, North and South Ireland aren't individual countries either).

#dealwithit

Bavaria isn't a singular country either, it's a part of Germany.

**jamin484**

Sigvatr wrote:
Scotland isn't an individual country like France or Germany, they are officially part of the United Kingdom. Ireland is an exception and is its own country (as a whole, North and South Ireland aren't individual countries either).

#dealwithit

Bavaria isn't a singular country either, it's a part of Germany.

When we get independence next year, we're gonna invade Germany. Then we'll see whose a real country pal.

edit: I promised to cease but failed. I will try harder this time.

**Scottiebhoy**

Scotland isnt a country, are you for real???? It is part of the United Kingdom which is made up of 4 COUNTRIES.....

#getyourfactsstraight

**Glocknall**

Scottiebhoy wrote:
Scotland isnt a country, are you for real???? It is part of the United Kingdom which is made up of 4 COUNTRIES.....

#getyourfactsstraight

Scotland is a Nation which is a collection of like minded individuals united by a race, culture, religion, etc.

A country is defined by having recognized political borders.

Scotland is not officially a country, most definitely a nation.

**Sigvatr**

Scottiebhoy wrote:
Scotland isnt a country, are you for real???? It is part of the United Kingdom which is made up of 4 COUNTRIES.....

#getyourfactsstraight

Prove to me then that Scotland and Wales are independent countries, same as Germany, France etc. Do it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_population
http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/
http://www.countries-ofthe-world.com/countries-of-europe.html
http://geography.about.com/library/maps/blreurope.htm

**jamin484**

Here you go mate.

Oxford Dictionary.

Country

noun (plural countries)

1a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory

Nation

noun

a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory:

I think Scotland, Wales, and NI meet those definitions but it depends on your own understanding of the words country and nation. I feel Scottish and I suppose there are probably people who feel Bavarian as opposed to German or Texan as opposed to American too...

Regardless I think individual American states should be able to enter ETC (WTC?)

**Manchu**

Rule Number Two is Stay On Topic. If you guys want to keep discussing this (for whatever reason) please start a thread in the Off Topic subforum. Thanks.

**The Everliving**

Back on topic

Well done guys, flying 5000 miles to play in an event is exhausting and you did great. Hope to catch up with some of you at Nova.

**Chaoslord**

(sorry for OT, just clarifying couple of things regarding the ETC)

I think the ETC choosing FIFA rules for country criteria was originally for combination of historic and practical reasons. As the tournament was initially very euro-centric (hence the name and also strong identifying with soccer nationalities) and UK was the birthplace of both WHFB and 40k and had/has very large player base, it was thought to be a decent idea to make room for the Scots, Welsh and NI team.

In many minds at least in Europe, the tournament has evolved to an unofficial whfb/40k world (team) championships so in that sense it has a certain perceived prestige. And that prestige is probably the biggest reason for not allowing multiple teams per country as it would devalue the tournament to just a normal team tournament. People can lament the FIFA country criteria until the world ends, but it's very likely those will stay place for the ETC for foreseeable future as changing them would require the participant teams voting against it.

**RiTides**

Well, if they're viewing it as a world event, they could at least modify the name

. WTC, perhaps

if we're really comparing it to football!

**Ratius**

Well done to the Irish lads in the 40k team comp.
Considering country size and non regular tournament events held here thats an impressive showing.
Had a look at some of their lists and a few nasty ones alright.

I heard there was a nasty bout of food poisoning going on day 2 as well for a lot of people? Ugggh.

**Target**

Ratius wrote:
Well done to the Irish lads in the 40k team comp.
Considering country size and non regular tournament events held here thats an impressive showing.
Had a look at some of their lists and a few nasty ones alright.

I heard there was a nasty bout of food poisoning going on day 2 as well for a lot of people? Ugggh.

I think that was the entire week, needless to say, Novi Sad experienced a shortage of toilet paper.

**Bat Manuel**

Ratius wrote:

I heard there was a nasty bout of food poisoning going on day 2 as well for a lot of people? Ugggh.

Target wrote:

I think that was the entire week, needless to say, Novi Sad experienced a shortage of toilet paper.

Well played Europe.....Well played

**augustus5**

Sigvatr wrote:
ETC follows the UEFA ruling for team selection, that's why the US get one team and Great Britan gets 4 teams.

This is a debatable point of view and I, personally, consider this to be outdated. The UEFA focuses on football and, frankly, the US doesn't give a damn about football at all (AE: soccer). Warhammer is a totally different case - it's extremely popular in the US. That's why I think that the entire UEFA thing needs to be thought over again.

...but alas, that is my very own opinion. It's shared by some, and opposed by others, with the latter currently being the majority.

It's a good thing, though, that the US team did so good, especially in regards to their very sportsmanlike behavior. Gives the pro "more teams for US" side a bit more weight.

Oh, and: Scotland is NOT a country. Wales is NOT a country. Drop that argument please.

Great Britain is not a country either. I think the answer you're looking for is the United Kingdom.

**Ratius**

I think that was the entire week, needless to say, Novi Sad experienced a shortage of toilet paper.

Well played Europe.....Well played

Trolling or? Not sure at this stage.

A few comments in this whole thread have been covertly / pseudo anti-European, specifically from certain parties.

Can you give it a rest?

Its a voluntary competition, held in Europe, which many people attend at their own expense, to play and have fun at and compete against the best that there is and might be.

Dont agree/feel worthy/feel aggrieved?

Dont attend

EDIT: Sure: critique the format/rules/scoring but having a cheap pop at countries or their hosting - attendance is frankily...pathetic.

Double edit: CBA, work away.

**Blackmoor**

Ratius wrote:

A few comments in this whole thread have been covertly / pseudo anti-European, specifically from certain parties.

I don't think I see anything anti-European here.

**MVBrandt**

Other than the usual trolls (who are in almost any Dakka tourney thread), I think most of the people here are simply big fans of what the Europeans are doing with the ETC, and wish there were more opportunities to participate. That said, can't help but reiterate there's 0 opportunity for additional US teams ... it's been decided on already AFAIK.

**Ratius**

I don't think I see anything anti-European here.

There was a "Europe backwater" comment at some point but I apologise for my post anyway (had a few drinks).
Its a great thread and some very nice ideas and comments.

No offense intended from me and I echo what MVB said about a good tournament setup and execution from everyone especially those that travelled from afar (barring the food poisoning!

).

**Blackmoor**

Ratius wrote:
I don't think I see anything anti-European here.

There was a "Europe backwater" comment at some point but I apologise for my post anyway (had a few drinks).
Its a great thread and some very nice ideas and comments.

No offense intended from me and I echo what MVB said about a good tournament setup and execution from everyone especially those that travelled from afar (barring the food poisoning! ).

I said that the ETC is held in a backwater European city.
This is not a slight on Europe or the city, it is a comment saying that the cities that hold the ETC are not major travel destinations. Last year it was Gorzow Poland and this year it was held in Novi Sad Serbia.

"Backwater" was just a short way to say that they are both far away from major airports and have additional challenges to travel to and stay at.
Urban Dictionary Definition of Backwater: "Somewhere out of the way; in the middle of nowhere; desolate. See boondocks."