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Our club is all non-GW.

 juraigamer wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
I don't see warmachine topping GW, mostly because the majority of their fanbase is old 40k players, which is why I find it very odd they aren't complaining about colossals and other warmachine problems. Warmachine is called a skirmish game, yet I see people spend far more on that then GW stuff.

We also have other wargames going on in my local area, dropzone commander has a good following.

Spending far more on Warmachine isn't an issue of scale. I can go out and spend 600 dollars and easily have 3 armies of average game size with pieces to spare because I like the aesthetic, the playstyle, or w/e reason. Unbound was released as a way for players with large collections to field and play those collections in a manner that wasn't super clunky. The next natural progression is to build large pieces that are made for an Unbound game (Colossals, Gargantuans, Battle Engines, Santa's Little Helper Lylth3). These pieces can be played in regular games, but they will definitely be the lions share of points.

And there were definitely complaints about the battle engines and colossals that were voiced when these things were announced, but players got over it because they're fun pieces and you don't need a special game type to use them. I can use my 120 dollar Mountain King as long as I have points for it, I don't need my opponent's permission to field it like I might need for them to let me play my Baneblade.

I think you missed the point. The fact that you have a 120 dollar model in a skirmish game is the problem.

Infantry are as well. While a heavy warjack tends to be 9 points and around 30-40 USD, infantry units are far worse, and don't get me started on the $100 5 man box cavalry units.

The fact that you can just take a colossal and a warcaster at 15 points is just bad.

But these don't make it a bad game, its just not the shining light it's fanbase wants to make it seem (at least, in comparison to GW stuffs)

LOL, , I know of only one company that base there price off of the ingame point cost. The rest base it off the cost to produce the model, guess witch company dose it the wrong way it not hard.

OP, let just say out of the 10 guys going to the localish gamecon. 1 went for 40K, the rest Warmachine with 2 of them hit the Infinity games as well.The store it self is most FoW (loving it) and a spaceship war game forget the name, not my cup of tea.

 mega_bassist wrote:
I keep seeing people talking about Infinity...but I've never seen it in my area

Guess I'll look into it and see what this game is all about.

You might not have a stockist if there's nobody playing.

I've found that with Infinity, the more shops stocking it the better the establishment of a playerbase.

from what i've seen in ireland: aside from the die-hard 40kers, warmachine/hordes is the new big thing with a big, and growing presence.

from what i've seen in scotland: 40k and Fantasy are present-they get a nice slice of the pie, but its far from overwhelming. GW specialist games have a bit of a standing too (local club finished a necro league recently, and ive seen a lot of bloodbowl and 28mm inquisitor being plated) Warmachine/hordes has made massive inroads in the scene, games like malifaux and infinity are extremely popular and are growing fast with a lot of interest. games like flames of war are equally popular, if not more so in some communities. and for some reason in scotland, dystopian wars has had a massive impact with a very large presence.

i've also seen something relatively new since i moved over a few years ago: people who got into gaming through avenues other than 40k. Yup. Quite a few of my warmachine buddies have never actually played 40k or fantasy, and got introduced to gaming through fmaes of war. im starting to see gamers who have gotten into the scene via warmachine/hordes as well.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 mega_bassist wrote:
I keep seeing people talking about Infinity...but I've never seen it in my area

Guess I'll look into it and see what this game is all about.

You might not have a stockist if there's nobody playing.

I've found that with Infinity, the more shops stocking it the better the establishment of a playerbase.

That could be it. I haven't been to the FLGS in quite some time, so I don't know what they stock/don't stock. I will admit, it does look pretty interesting.

non-GW wargaming is probably at the heighest point since the 90s and growing further. It used to be that smaller game studios lived and died by distributors and retailers supporting their stuff and that if things didn't sell well through the distributors, you were hosed as a publisher. Now companies have the ability to communicate with and sell directly to their customers through the internet. They can even raise funds directly from their customers and fans for upcoming projects.

That said, non-GW wargaming has also never had an easier in with distributors and retailers. GW's switch to direct trade means that the distributors are largely selling non-GW product. So when something like X-Wing comes along, that'll get to local stores.

Even companies that are heavily about using the internet to get their stuff in front of people are finding success with traditional stores and distribution. In June, for example, Mantic reported in their podcast that three fourths of Dreadball has been sold through independent retailers and the first quarter through their Kickstarter. If the numbers hold for Deadzone, that'll be a substantial amount of miniatures going out all over the world given the level to which their projects were funded.

We're in a very different place than the late 90s or early 2000s. Non-GW wargames are not just popping up and then dying off. They're sticking around, expanding and thriving. Privateer Press is celebrating Warmachine's 10th Anniversary at GenCon as I type this, for example.

I always find it amusing when people try to create some sort of dichtonomy between "army-scale" GW and "skirmish" others. 40k was and is a skirmish game, just an overgrown one. So is WHFB. They are both designed as 28-35 mm games with little or no abstraction mechanics that could lead you to believe that a single model represents more than one warrior.

Locally, WmH is the largest after 40k/WhFb (it varies between tourneys). FoW has a smaller following, Infinity is on the way, as is Malifaux.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
I always find it amusing when people try to create some sort of dichtonomy between "army-scale" GW and "skirmish" others. 40k was and is a skirmish game, just an overgrown one. So is WHFB. They are both designed as 28-35 mm games with little or no abstraction mechanics that could lead you to believe that a single model represents more than one warrior.

And that is a big reason they don't work any more.

One big barrier to Infinity is you need tonnes bazillions terrain--your FLGS or gaming group may or may not have this or be willing to set it up for a game they haven't tried.

I also think plenty of people will at least try different games/armies. Part of the tipping point for me finally trying warmachine after mulling it for like a year was that starting a small army would cost about the same as a decent-sized addition to either of my GW armies.

I tend to think of historicals separately, I'm a little surprised there's not more crossover (I have to believe plenty of wargamers are WWII nerds!)

For the little it's worth, my local FLGS has FoW as it's top game. But then again, FoW is very popular in my region of the city, and I know he makes a lot more on FoW sales per unit than he does on GW.

Grndhog89 wrote:
.how many have actually gained traction and are making headways? For example, I love Infinity and I love the setting, but idk if it is really making headway. Same with Malifaux, Warmahordes, etc. And do you think any of these games have the potential of becoming "Games Workshop scale games"? Or are all of these rendered to a niche corners? Your thoughts/opinions?

I can't speak to whether any games are become "GW" is size/popularity. however, as far as which have gained traction and headway, it really depends on where you are.
In truth, "Headway" doesn't mean much for these smaller games as long as they are still progressing. Try not to worry about whether a game is a GW killer or not. What matters is if you can find any one to play the game.

When looking into a new game, the most important thing is to look about locally and see who is playing your game. And don't just check the FLGS. Check Meetup, and small local online forums. Many folks playing less popular games have mostly abandoned the FLGS in favor of groups playing in member's homes, so sometimes you need to dig. All that said, sometimes a game may look and play brilliantly, but it might not be worth your gaming dollar if there isn't anyone locally playing the game.

Here in Chicagoland, we've got enough gamers that if you're willing to travel a few miles, you can probably find players for just about any game you want. Everything from 40k, to Warmachine, to Malifaux and Dreadball and even indie games like Song of Blades and Heroes. For some of the more obscure games, it's a bit harder, but if I was interested, I could easily find players, even for less popular games like Kings of War or Hail Caesar.

My club is a bit infrequent in terms of 40k gamers, fow is massive here, (Stafford Games, he sells the full range so not surprising) it easily rivals 40k, especially when most of the fow players dabble in many other systems, ie bolt action, as of this year, fantasy and magic the gathering dominate the Thursday gaming night, traditionally 40k's spot, but all could change.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
I always find it amusing when people try to create some sort of dichtonomy between "army-scale" GW and "skirmish" others. 40k was and is a skirmish game, just an overgrown one. So is WHFB. They are both designed as 28-35 mm games with little or no abstraction mechanics that could lead you to believe that a single model represents more than one warrior.

Locally, WmH is the largest after 40k/WhFb (it varies between tourneys). FoW has a smaller following, Infinity is on the way, as is Malifaux.

They may be all "Skirmish" games, in that technically they are all games in which one-man equals one-man.However, it is worth making distinctions between the "Scope" of different games.

-40k is somewhere between Platoon and Battalion level and groups miniatures into.
-Infinity and Malifaux are "Warband" (a vague term, but one that most folks understand) level games. Each player controls one Squad or Section of troops, but treat each minature as an individual unit.
-Warmachine is at the low end of a platoon level.

Understanding the "Scope" or "Level" of combat makes it easier to understand one of the gripes some folks have with 40k and WHFB. That is, having Two Battalions of Troops fighting it out on a field the size of a soccer pitch is ridiculously compressed and beyond unrealistic.

At best, 40k is on company level. Which is still a far cry from anything I'd calm "Army Scale" But a company on a soccer field is still very compressed. We're talking a guy per metre or so, depending on size. Fire and movement becomes very difficult and you are highly vulnerable to ordnance.

Heck, even Epic usually doesn't reach decent batallion sizes.

At an FLGS near me, non GW games of all sorts are the most played, and WHFB is more popular than 40k. Go figure.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
At best, 40k is on company level. Which is still a far cry from anything I'd calm "Army Scale" But a company on a soccer field is still very compressed. We're talking a guy per metre or so, depending on size. Fire and movement becomes very difficult and you are highly vulnerable to ordnance.

Heck, even Epic usually doesn't reach decent batallion sizes.

You are correct. I meant Company (80-200 men) not Battalion.

I agree, though that ordinance is a whole other thing entirely. If any army concentrated their troops the way a 40k game does, the enemy wouldn't bother sending their own troops. They'd simply send in a single airstrike or Artillery Barrage and wipe them out nearly instantly.

Perhaps though we shouldn't knock that particular straw man down too much though, no one actually things 40k is in any way realistic...

... do they?

In Hong Kong, it's strange. No Warmachine any more, but lots of Bolt Action.

Warmachine was heavily touted here. People here like mecha. They should like Warmachine, but no one plays it anymore.

Bolt Action is really popular. It might be overtaking Warhammer Fantasy in prevalence/popularity, as crazy as that sounds.

So on a given night, I think it's 50% of tables are playing 40k, 25% WhF, 25% Bolt Action...and Bolt Action is gaining.

---

There are other lines, but no one plays them regularly. Like the Napoleonic War stuff, the shop is trying to tout that.

Bolt Action might just be the new shiny, popular for a short while. However, I dunno...this looks like a keeper.

 Platuan4th wrote:
According to how well things sell in the US: yes and no.

The top 5 games in the US as of Spring 2013:

1. 40K
2. Warmachine
3. X-wing
4. Fantasy
5. Hordes

I strike out Hordes because most people would consider Warmachine and Hordes as one game(and with good reason), but the lines are still separate for sale reasons. Since ICv2 only covers the top 5 sellers, there's speculation as to which would be #6(and thus the #5 top most popular game). Looking back at late 2010 until summer 2012, Malifaux was the one nipping at Hordes' heels, so I'd reason that it's doing better than Infinity.

I disagree with your lumping of GW games into a single thing, as well, since then we're talking about how well companies are doing, not how well certain games are doing.

Really interesting info, thanks for sharing this, I'll try to look at this ICv2 source. I had no idea Warmachine was still so popular.

In my gaming group the current lineup for GW is not doing well.

Mordheim is still played, as is Necromunda. Battlefleet Gothic gets dusted off, now and again.

Other than that... Kings of War, Warmahordes, and TSR's Battlesystem.

Oh, and Dreadball... Grumble, grumble, grumble....

Most of it comes down to folks not loving the current editions of the main GW games - while it is unlikely that Kings of War would disappear if there was a new-new edition of Warhammer Fantasy it is likely that WHFB would at least see some play again.

The Auld Grump

At the clubs I attend, one has a pretty dynamic player base and games in play changes frequently, the other is a purely 40k affair.

Most nights at the Bunker there will be half of the area are playing either WmH, Dystopian Wars or sometimes Bloodbowl. They're pretty well organised and backed by some small retailers which helps to focus on certain systems. The other half of the room will be a mix of WFB, KoW, 40k, X-wing and boardgames, probably in that order of popularity.

Much against the wisdom of Dakka there does seem to be growing interest in WFB, the only thing stopping me is no new Dwarf book.

There are a few clubs near me, the older established ones rarely have any 40K or fantasy on the ground, whilst games like FoW, infinity, malifeaux, dead mans hand, x-wing are all popular.

The newer clubs (local GW bunker closed a few months back) are all very 40K/fantasy heavy

From a fairly unscientific skim round my local club on an average night, it appears that there's maybe 1-3 Current GW games on (40K/Fantasy), at least as much Dystopian Wars, a few skirmish games, 1-2 Flames Of War games and a few card games, with quite a few gamers getting into Drop Zone Commander.

40K is still the easiest thing to arrange a game of because everyone has an army, but it probably makes up about 10-20% of the games at most on any given night.

Yeah that's the flip side, at the Bunker (not a GW bunker btw, just a club called the bunker) where its mostly non GW presently; if a 40k league starts most people can pull an army out of the bag and there will be a dozen people interested.

I tend to find that people's perceptions of what games are big, small, growing or dieing are all very dependent on their locality. The fact is that at any particular venue, it only takes one or two people spruking a game, pushing it and simply turning up with an army to play to kick off a game. A mere handful of motivated people can change the balance of games being played significantly, and will affect what other players start to play - and similarly, if those players lose motivation or move or have to give up gaming or whatever, then a game can just as quickly die.

And just as it can in the very local scene, it only takes a handful of dedicated individuals organizing events to create a wider community for a game in an area/city/state or what have you - build the community and they will come.

So views on these things can be quite skewed from a local perspective.

 Maddermax wrote:
I tend to find that people's perceptions of what games are big, small, growing or dieing are all very dependent on their locality. The fact is that at any particular venue, it only takes one or two people spruking a game, pushing it and simply turning up with an army to play to kick off a game. A mere handful of motivated people can change the balance of games being played significantly, and will affect what other players start to play - and similarly, if those players lose motivation or move or have to give up gaming or whatever, then a game can just as quickly die.

And just as it can in the very local scene, it only takes a handful of dedicated individuals organizing events to create a wider community for a game in an area/city/state or what have you - build the community and they will come.

So views on these things can be quite skewed from a local perspective.

Likewise, a handful of entrenched individuals can make introducing a new game a losing battle.
At the store about 3 miles from me, if it ain't GW or Warmahordes you have darn near zero chance of getting anyone to even play it.
That's bringing both sides for games like Bolt Action, Flames of War and Kings of War; demoing; and even giving away free stuff for playing in a demo.
After 2-3 months of trying, I hung it up at that store. Just not worth the effort.

In my gaming group getting people to try other games is like pulling teeth. No one wants to spend money on a non-GW wargame because they've been burned too many times in the past. In fact, it's like pulling teeth just getting them to try anything not 40k.

I have, however, made headway with Infinity. I've gotten my brother to give it a try and he's picked up a decent amount of Yu Jing, and I've gotten one friend to try it with Aleph. I'm considering just giving my Combined Army stuff to my other friend if it'll get him into the game.

However, collecting and playing are different things. Only my brother and I have had a few starter games, and my other friend I gave him a basic run through the ARO system. Really need to dig into the game more with them.

I've been considering trying to get them into Dropzone Commander, but I know I'll have far less luck on that.

Noir wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
I don't see warmachine topping GW, mostly because the majority of their fanbase is old 40k players, which is why I find it very odd they aren't complaining about colossals and other warmachine problems. Warmachine is called a skirmish game, yet I see people spend far more on that then GW stuff.

We also have other wargames going on in my local area, dropzone commander has a good following.

Spending far more on Warmachine isn't an issue of scale. I can go out and spend 600 dollars and easily have 3 armies of average game size with pieces to spare because I like the aesthetic, the playstyle, or w/e reason. Unbound was released as a way for players with large collections to field and play those collections in a manner that wasn't super clunky. The next natural progression is to build large pieces that are made for an Unbound game (Colossals, Gargantuans, Battle Engines, Santa's Little Helper Lylth3). These pieces can be played in regular games, but they will definitely be the lions share of points.

And there were definitely complaints about the battle engines and colossals that were voiced when these things were announced, but players got over it because they're fun pieces and you don't need a special game type to use them. I can use my 120 dollar Mountain King as long as I have points for it, I don't need my opponent's permission to field it like I might need for them to let me play my Baneblade.

I think you missed the point. The fact that you have a 120 dollar model in a skirmish game is the problem.

Infantry are as well. While a heavy warjack tends to be 9 points and around 30-40 USD, infantry units are far worse, and don't get me started on the $100 5 man box cavalry units.

The fact that you can just take a colossal and a warcaster at 15 points is just bad.

But these don't make it a bad game, its just not the shining light it's fanbase wants to make it seem (at least, in comparison to GW stuffs)

LOL, , I know of only one company that base there price off of the ingame point cost. The rest base it off the cost to produce the model, guess witch company dose it the wrong way it not hard.

OP, let just say out of the 10 guys going to the localish gamecon. 1 went for 40K, the rest Warmachine with 2 of them hit the Infinity games as well.The store it self is most FoW (loving it) and a spaceship war game forget the name, not my cup of tea.

let's not forget that with warmachine, you actually have different options to try out. The way GW plays, sure, there are these interesting units, but the rules are so bloody bad that the only way you would ever voluntarily field these models is if the tournament banned the standard units. Let's say, IG players are required to take penal legion.... or tau are required to take kroot. There are some units in GW's games with such terrible rules that they would never be fielded. In fact the rules organization is such that an individual has very limited reason to deviate from a certain army list. With warmachine, there's a lot more options. The way the models interact means that there is great value in picking up different units and experimenting with how they interact. There is actually a point to picking up another unit, and what's more, you are not limited by a force organization chart. There's something to be said for the appeal of a game that has more interest in what units you pick rather than what you equip your units with. Add to that the presence of the mercenary faction, making it immensely easy to expand to the next army, and have it playable.

as to the argument about expensive models in skirmish games... you don't appear to have the people in your gaming club who go out and buy their models from kromlech or scibor. What about the guys that custom sculpt their models? It's very easy to exceed the cost of a squad of models in 40k. Heck, just buy from FW! Buy resin bases from a 3rd party, and some more special bits and gear to customize your mark 3 armor..... and there you go. Then there's the fact that, if your club and opponent permit, you are more than welcome to field your own home-built construct. You can go to an FLGS, buy the WM bases, WM deck of cards, then waddle over to reapers' bones products, pick out a few characters, then walk over to the plasticard section, and buy a bunch of stuff out of there, go home, and get yourself an army at quite a reduced price (discounting the cost of labour).

Another test against your expense complaint is to grab $150, and see what that gets you in any given game. It gets you the shortest distance in GW. You can't get a playable army on that kind of money (fine, codex space marines, with the DV set, and a lot of filing pointy and organic bits off....). Most other systems will already have you playing normal games. Throwing a rant about $120 models on the tabletop needs to be put back into context. It's like complaining that the cost of gas is ridiculous and no reasonable person can expect to keep their truck's tank full (and that's because a reasonable person would be expected to drive something smaller with a less thirsty engine). Just because you CAN throw a $120 model on the tabletop, doesn't mean you are required to do so where options present themselves.

Addendum: this being the case, it's pointless for me to mention it, but the low cost of starting another game means that GW is only running on ubiquity. The price difference is driving people into other games. I remember playing a game recently, and people powered through their first game of 40k, and some others were standing around bored with their armies on standby, but still wouldn't throw them on the table, because they were waiting for the tables to clear for other stuff (in this case, it was primarily infinity)

Shameless bump.

Other than the collectable figures of events like characters and soldiers from the American civil war, I've only ever heard of GW games, like a large chunk of 40k players unfortunately. I feel bad and ignorant about it to be honest.

 SilentScreamer wrote:
Other than the collectable figures of events like characters and soldiers from the American civil war, I've only ever heard of GW games, like a large chunk of 40k players unfortunately. I feel bad and ignorant about it to be honest.

But see, you're from the HHHHobby-land, so you can be excused for your ignorance of the larger gaming world around you

 SilentScreamer wrote:
Other than the collectable figures of events like characters and soldiers from the American civil war, I've only ever heard of GW games, like a large chunk of 40k players unfortunately. I feel bad and ignorant about it to be honest.

If you only game and shop in GW stores and only know people who do the same, you'd have no exposure other than curiosity on the internet to other game systems, so it's not surprising when people have no idea of the hobby outside of GW. Don't feel bad, you're just new to the hobby, it seems.

Use Dakka as a place to get information on alternate games. Just don't be surprised if your GW store staff get annoyed when you discuss competing product, they don't like that. Look around you for other stores.