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 Fezman wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
GW used to require fully painted models up until the 'ard boyz events in the middle 2000s.

If you don't like it, paint your models or take your ball and go home? Stores can make and enforce any house rules they want. Sounds like a tongue in cheek way of getting people to paint. I have seen stores near me who allow people who buy and paint a unit from the store draw from a deck and that unit gains a "power". Incentivized buying and painting, you get a boost.

If you take gaming so serious that you get angry over losing a slight advantage, then don't play there.

Agreed.

It's just light-hearted. It could be worse, they could have banned unpainted armies altogether.

As for anyone getting genuinely angry about this...there are things more deserving of your rage.

It really comes down to how things effect you, if any of the stores I would go to put this rule up I think it would probably make me feel far worse than anything I think I dislike GW for now.

 Krellnus wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
A very minimal amount of skill is required to get figures painted. Spray, wash, drybrush, touch a few bits of detail like the guns, paint base and flock. If you can't do that you're not even trying and people putting figures on the table that are thickly daubed in paint and splodges of various colours simply haven't taken any time or made any effort at all.

And what if I want to put in more effort than that? I only get a half day off a week where I can actually do any hobby, if I don't have any assignments, why should I be penalised?
Instead of having this honestly stupid rule, reward people who paint, instead of penalising those who don't.
Something along the lines of if you increase the amount of stuff that is painted in between visits, you get a free re-roll in game, with people who have fully painted armies getting a free re-roll a turn or something?

I was mostly responding to people claiming that some unpainted armies look better than painted because of low painting ability. I really think that any army that really looks that bad is not due to lack of ability but effort. It's not a valid argument for playing unpainted IMO.

If you can paint to a high standard and wish to, it's just a matter of time management unfortunately.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I was mostly responding to people claiming that some unpainted armies look better than painted because of low painting ability. I really think that any army that really looks that bad is not due to lack of ability but effort. It's not a valid argument for playing unpainted IMO.

I don't think there are many people who would go out of their way to do a horrible paint job on their very expensive models just to spite this kind of rule either...

No but there are people who would rush to do the job as quick as possible to meet the 3-colour requirement at the expense of any quality. Anyone taking their time can do a reasonable, basic job and end up with something that looks a lot better than unpainted.

 Krellnus wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
A very minimal amount of skill is required to get figures painted. Spray, wash, drybrush, touch a few bits of detail like the guns, paint base and flock. If you can't do that you're not even trying and people putting figures on the table that are thickly daubed in paint and splodges of various colours simply haven't taken any time or made any effort at all.

And what if I want to put in more effort than that? I only get a half day off a week where I can actually do any hobby, if I don't have any assignments, why should I be penalised?
Instead of having this honestly stupid rule, reward people who paint, instead of penalising those who don't.
Something along the lines of if you increase the amount of stuff that is painted in between visits, you get a free re-roll in game, with people who have fully painted armies getting a free re-roll a turn or something?

You can get your models to three color minimum and then take as much time as you want to make them perfect.

Da krimson barun wrote:
[thquote=nkelsch 545582 5938624 null]They could game on the table but that looks horrible.

Seriously? Your worried about what the table looks like but don't care about your army being painted?

Anyway, I like it. Not sure about getting kids to scream but giving people a little advantage for having a painted force is a good thing. If it was a case of some people not painting some of there force thats fine, but it has reached a point now where not fielding a fully painted force is the norm rather than the exception and it is horrid.

I hate playing against unpainted because:

1: It looks horrid. I have put allot of time in to my army and want to play against the same. I like to see a nice table with good scenery and painted minis. I don't care how well you paint, but as long as you have painted as best you can.

2: Unpainted minis seems to be about having the best force as fast as possible then keep changing it. The players with most unpainted minis always seem to be the most WAAC. Come on, people complain about not being able to paint a full force, but with most army's getting 1000 points painted is not that hard. Its once you start trying to build multiple forces or lots of options that you get a problem. I mean, most 40k forces you can build something with less than 20 models. Spray color base coat, pick out the metals and a few other details. How hard is that on 20 minis? If you want to do more then work from there, or re-base coat them as you get to do them.

To me wargamming is more than just the actual playing the battle, its from start to finish, building, painting and playing. Otherwise, where do you stop? Bases with labels?

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
No but there are people who would rush to do the job as quick as possible to meet the 3-colour requirement at the expense of any quality. Anyone taking their time can do a reasonable, basic job and end up with something that looks a lot better than unpainted.

Sorry, I was replying to the implication that a couple of posters made that people would just glop paint randomly all over their models to meet the "painted" requirement.

What, deliberately paint as badly as possible to spite the 3-colour rule while complying with it? That's probably taking it a bit far. Models are a bit expensive to be that childish IMO.

We used to frequent a HLGS (it used to be friendly) that started with a painted rule similiar to this. It kept evolving as people would just spray the undercoat on etc. until there was a 4 colour minimum.

This led to the banning of a player who wrote underneath the rule "We'd hate you to spend money on more models when you haven't bothered to paint your current ones, we hate that as much as our players".

Mostly it led to a few armies with a few questionably painted squads, new armies poorly painted or just added some gate keeping in there just to keep people out entirely.

The shop eventually had to close but there were quite a few toxic things going on beside this.

As our own gaming group painted/proxing is quite common in casual games because we understand not everyone has alot of money or time to put into this hobby due to life in general (Toy soldiers is last on the list of stuff to get done), though this is a stance that seems to invoke alot of hostility from other parts of the community.

Lysit wrote:
We used to frequent a HLGS (it used to be friendly) that started with a painted rule similiar to this. It kept evolving as people would just spray the undercoat on etc. until there was a 4 colour minimum.

This led to the banning of a player who wrote underneath the rule "We'd hate you to spend money on more models when you haven't bothered to paint your current ones, we hate that as much as our players".

Mostly it led to a few armies with a few questionably painted squads, new armies poorly painted or just added some gate keeping in there just to keep people out entirely.

The shop eventually had to close but there were quite a few toxic things going on beside this.

As our own gaming group painted/proxing is quite common in casual games because we understand not everyone has alot of money or time to put into this hobby due to life in general (Toy soldiers is last on the list of stuff to get done), though this is a stance that seems to invoke alot of hostility from other parts of the community.

Then on the other side of the coin you get the players who only want to play super hard lists and bitch and moan if you come in with something fluffy.

There are all sorts of people who are into wargaming but a minimum level of painting for your models isn't exactly a huge ask. I'd be willing to bet that the store in your story shut down for reasons other than people having to paint their models.

Besides which it isn't the rule that it a problem, but how it is enforced. A house rule that players can ignore and joke about is great, someone checking your army cases on the way in and stamping "I AM A TOOL WHO DOES NOT PAINT THEIR ARMY" on your forehead and constantly badgering you about how much you suck as you play is clearly going to drive players away.

The paint rule I have no problem with, I'd go with something different.
Say a painted unit may re-roll one dice per game, or something like that.
I too remember the no paint, no play days of GW.
People made an effort to paint their armies.
The only unpainted models were the ones bought that day.
After the first fielding, they had to be painted.
It's not hard to paint up a 10 man squad or a tank in a week.

weeble1000 wrote:
I am not a fan of these rules.
.
.
.
If you want people to invest time and energy into their models, you've got to create a welcoming, encouraging atmosphere that invites increasing involvement. Demanding it does more harm than good.

You rant how you don't time to paint your model to have 3 colors but you have time to do the time consuming converting?

I'm from the old school days of no unpainted miniatures can play, apart from ones bought that day. I was chatting to my local GW employee, when i was last in there, about his rules with painted miniatures and using the tables. And he stated units have to be based and undercoated as a minimum, and there has to be noticeable progress on the units next time you play. Else your opponent gets hatred. I thought it was pretty cool!

Personally i hate playing unpainted mini's, and it annoys me when people are happy to play them. I've only played once at GW (as everyone was abit weird) and i got lectured by a 17 year old how he'd only play WYSIWYG, (and because my crisis suits weren't magnetized) The thing that annoyed me was that 75% of his army was just undercoated.

People can make time to paint their mini's, i don't buy any of these excuses.

People keep saying 'incentivizing painting'.

It has become clear that there is not a single 'carrot' you can give the people who paint that the people who choose not to paint won't see as a 'stick' against them.

If you give them a bonus rule, the non-painters see that as a 'stick' against them for not having the rule.

If you give them a discount, the non-painters see that as a 'stick' against them as now they cannot afford the same amount of models and are disrespected as customers.

If you give them first dibs on the gaming space, the non-painters see that as a 'stick' against them as now they are being dislocated and abused.

They always have excuses why they can't paint,t hey always trot out the strawman of every fast paintjob looks like it was shot by gloopy paintballs even though there are tons of techniques which can be done fast and look amazing. They blame money, family and work when those are issues everyone has, painters are not unemployed, single orphans with millions of dollars so they can paint.

Boils down to 'painted games sell models'. And if you are like 'there is no street traffic, we play on club night. Every think why your store owner banished wargaming to tuesday night and gives prime time to better customers like all day saturday Pokemon? Because he can't have you guys visible for days when there *IS* street traffic.

A Hatred rule is no big deal, and it is funny to boot because it calls you out on your BS more than it harms the game or challenges the sacred 'balance' of a 40k game. If it 'disgusts' you and you are really upset, you may need to adjust your personal world view. Rape in India and female circumcision 'disgusts' me. Nothing wargaming related is going to reach anywhere near that level of hyperbolic BS.

I think it's a cool rule.

It's pretty good for long-term customer retention, and arguably limits or smooths out purchasing, stopping people buying uber-competitive units before they've painted their basic troops.

So, apart from providing a more immersive experience, it probably builds long-term fans rather than short-term consumers.

we spent the weekend at a warhammer world tournament, the kids' one, where the rule was for fully-painted armies. It is way more fun.

You resent a CSM space marine helldrake spam army a hell of a lot less if it is beautifully painted! And our Bob The Hive Tyrant got voted best beast, even if he did splatter everything in sight... (apart from the helldrakes).

Paint your army, it is not that much work and if you have time to go over to the store to play a game, you also have that time to instead a.) sit your ass down b.) basecoat your models c.) put some paint on them.

Nobody is expecting golden demon level painting.

I for one am extremely annoyed by the fact that people don't seem to realize that your oponent or the person who made a beautiful wargaming terrain will have some level of satisfaction, gratification and a whole other level of immersion by playing against a painted army.

Almost ALL the excuses I have heard of people not painting their plastic crack are utter bull. Most of them revolve about being a.) lazy b.) not making time for it c.) afraid of failing at something and thus not even giving it a try.

Oh and... I think the rules the store set are great. It creates an incentive and gives people that put time and effort into making their army look cool and fun to play against a reward.

DanFST wrote:


People can make time to paint their mini's, i don't buy any of these excuses.

This to me is really what's wrong, and the attitude that I feel with such a rule. It assumes that people against such a rule or getting stuck with it as a problem only have to make some time and fix it.
It forces a rule into the game no matter the potential effect ( harmful to the game or not) weather they could help it or not, if they cannot then it can support an attitude that mocks and belittles players that don't have army's painted yet for any reason.

Often these players are customers also.

Have you guys even considered that some people maybe just don't like to be put under pressure to perform in their free time? There is enough of that everywhere in our professional lives.

Seriously, you make it sound as if people who paint slowly - because they are either rather new to painting, or because they spend a lot of time on details, or any other reason frankly - were bad, bad people who should not be allowed to play. As if they had to come up with a justification for not painting all the models they chose to buy.

Tell you what: they don't. Nobody needs a justification to do something he enjoys, as long as he isn't harming anyone else while doing it. And playing with unpainted minis is certainly not harming anyone.

Sorry, but you are the sons of silly persons. You can personally choose to never play against someone whose army isn't fully painted if you think that will make your hobby more enjoyable, but acting as if that were a crime against humanity is just childish.

It's hardly "punishing" because hatred is a pretty small rule. Its not a total game winner.

Plus, I thought it might even make for some cool gameplay mechanics, like if you both have one unpainted unit, you could try and dance them around the board to aim for each other or something to help mitigate the handicap.

Regardless, I rather like the craic at that store, I don't see the need to get pissed about such minor gak.

Apple fox wrote:

DanFST wrote:


People can make time to paint their mini's, i don't buy any of these excuses.

This to me is really what's wrong, and the attitude that I feel with such a rule. It assumes that people against such a rule or getting stuck with it as a problem only have to make some time and fix it.
It forces a rule into the game no matter the potential effect ( harmful to the game or not) weather they could help it or not, if they cannot then it can support an attitude that mocks and belittles players that don't have army's painted yet for any reason.

Often these players are customers also.

I do understand where you are coming from. but i have to say i think it's a far too sensitive and rose tinted view. (IMO of course )

Yes this is a game, but it's primarily a hobby. I love going into my local GW and seeing all the different armies being played, that my group of friends don't collect. I love seeing how people modify and personalise they're models. Sounds abit too much, but i also believe a persons mini's are an extension of them.

Hatred isn;t a gamebreaker, and as i stated before it's a big change from the old days of GW when everything had to be painted. But if people are complaining about how this rule is unfair belittles them and they have X and Y reason why most of their stuff is unpainted. Either stop being so sensitive and man up. Or take a session where you were going to game, and paint some of your stuff!

 Skylifter wrote:
. And playing with unpainted minis is certainly not harming anyone.

I know more than one FLGS owner who would disagree with you, and I can tell you the Gamers who have to play on Tuesday night while Pokemon gets the entire store on weekends would also disagree with you.

The only way to get weekend wargaming in many situations is to guarantee the store owner cash flow via an organized event which requires 100% painted models.

 Skylifter wrote:
Have you guys even considered that some people maybe just don't like to be put under pressure to perform in their free time? There is enough of that everywhere in our professional lives.

Seriously, you make it sound as if people who paint slowly - because they are either rather new to painting, or because they spend a lot of time on details, or any other reason frankly - were bad, bad people who should not be allowed to play. As if they had to come up with a justification for not painting all the models they chose to buy.

Tell you what: they don't. Nobody needs a justification to do something he enjoys, as long as he isn't harming anyone else while doing it. And playing with unpainted minis is certainly not harming anyone.

Sorry, but you are the sons of silly persons. You can personally choose to never play against someone whose army isn't fully painted if you think that will make your hobby more enjoyable, but acting as if that were a crime against humanity is just childish.

This is another thing, trying to get something painted because you feel you have to is a chore, not an enjoyable part of a hobby.

DanFST wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

DanFST wrote:


People can make time to paint their mini's, i don't buy any of these excuses.

This to me is really what's wrong, and the attitude that I feel with such a rule. It assumes that people against such a rule or getting stuck with it as a problem only have to make some time and fix it.
It forces a rule into the game no matter the potential effect ( harmful to the game or not) weather they could help it or not, if they cannot then it can support an attitude that mocks and belittles players that don't have army's painted yet for any reason.

Often these players are customers also.

I do understand where you are coming from. but i have to say i think it's a far too sensitive and rose tinted view. (IMO of course )

Yes this is a game, but it's primarily a hobby. I love going into my local GW and seeing all the different armies being played, that my group of friends don't collect. I love seeing how people modify and personalise they're models. Sounds abit too much, but i also believe a persons mini's are an extension of them.

Hatred isn;t a gamebreaker, and as i stated before it's a big change from the old days of GW when everything had to be painted. But if people are complaining about how this rule is unfair belittles them and they have X and Y reason why most of their stuff is unpainted. Either stop being so sensitive and man up. Or take a session where you were going to game, and paint some of your stuff!

That's the thing, I can't just paint as I please, right now I can't even hold a brush and paint as it gets very painfull and I likely won't be able to for a few weeks again probably. Playing a game is far less difficult for the time it takes and only difficulty would be reaching to the centre of the table.
I really enjoy painting, but it's a slow process that shouldn't effect me in the game as I want to do best as I can. Weather or not it's a big effect, it's only comes off as a punishment to me.

As someone who actually hates playing with unpainted models I agree with this rule. I don't play Warhammer just to play some war game, Risk is way cheaper, I play for an experience, a story, memorable moments, and the sometimes sheer awesomeness of those long shot high risk high reward plays. It really hurts the immersion when my Blood Angels of the 7th are fighting the grey tyranids of hive fleet Icantbebotheredtopaintihavetomanymodels.

This is a time intensive hobby, people knew that going in. If you can’t be bothered to paint your army then you are taking away from the experience of the players who did actually take the time to paint their armies, and that should be penalized. I honestly felt I needed to apologize the other day when part of my assault squad was fielded with only a base coat. They were the only unpainted on the table and it detracted from both armies. (However assault marines don’t survive all that long currently)

At my LFGS it wouldn’t matter, sense all of the tables are in the basement anyways. Someone who just walks in isn’t really going to check it out unless they are already interested. Which maybe an alternative, if you want to play with an unpainted army, you get to play on the table in the back. You know the one I mean, the one that’s just particle board decorated with boxes.

 jonolikespie wrote:
This is another thing, trying to get something painted because you feel you have to is a chore, not an enjoyable part of a hobby.

I find painting a chore more or less all the time - having a reason to paint is just that - a reason to paint. It is a great motivator to power through a unit or two so you can use them on the table fully painted regardless of how you feel about painting.

Pretty much the only time I paint for more than 20 minutes at a time before getting bored and going to do something else for the rest of the month is when I have a game coming up and need to paint something for it.

 Skylifter wrote:
Have you guys even considered that some people maybe just don't like to be put under pressure to perform in their free time? There is enough of that everywhere in our professional lives.

Seriously, you make it sound as if people who paint slowly - because they are either rather new to painting, or because they spend a lot of time on details, or any other reason frankly - were bad, bad people who should not be allowed to play. As if they had to come up with a justification for not painting all the models they chose to buy.

Tell you what: they don't. Nobody needs a justification to do something he enjoys, as long as he isn't harming anyone else while doing it. And playing with unpainted minis is certainly not harming anyone.

Sorry, but you are the sons of silly persons. You can personally choose to never play against someone whose army isn't fully painted if you think that will make your hobby more enjoyable, but acting as if that were a crime against humanity is just childish.

You are not put under pressure. Painted armies simply offer a lot more immersion. Then again you are right, people cannot be forced to paint their armies, however they shouldn't cry like little babies when other people either refuse to play against them or make snarky remarks. Or in this threads case my beautifully painted models gain "hatred" vs your plastic muppets.

I can remember when you weren't allowed to play with a non goblin green base!

**Pulls up sandbag and reminises**

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I can remember when you weren't allowed to play with a non goblin green base!

**Pulls up sandbag and reminises**

Those were dark days for the hobby painter...

 Mannahnin wrote:
In the first competitive league I ever played, you got a 1 battle point penalty per game in which you weren't WYSIWYG. That penalty kept me from qualifying for the league finals. Next league, you had better bet I was 100% WYSIWYG.

Shortly thereafter GW debuted their Rogue Trader Tournament rules pack for FLGS stores; and it was scored on total aggregate points (battle, painting, sports), with 40% of your available painting points just being for it being fully painted. I got my darn army finished.

Only later did I really start to enjoy painting, although I always felt satisfied and pleased whenever I finished a unit and was able to show progress at the store with my buddies and opponents. But as primarily a competitive player, who initially wasn't into painting, those points incentives really motivated me to finish armies and get my darn painting done. In the process I also developed techniques to get it done fast, as I have a tendency to procrastinate. I'd say 80%+ of the painting I've done has been shorly before a big tournament, where I knew I needed to be fully painted to play at all, or I knew I'd take a significant points hit if I wasn't.

So, all that is to say, that I approve of and appreciate rules like this.

I think there is a distinct difference between imposing penalties in a tournament and a store-wide rule. Tournament penalties are in place for a specific event. A store-wide rule is enforced, in theory, in casual games. A penalty at a tournament is negative reinforcement, but far more reasonable in the sense that it simply makes it difficult/impossible to win the tournament. You can still play normal games in the tournament, your overall score in the tournament is penalized.

Even so, I still vastly prefer positive reinforcement. Make painting separate from battle points, and award good prizes, make a big deal about it, give public praise to the winners and award plenty of recognition. You can have a "players' choice" painting award, and incentivise participants to rate the armies present. That positively encourages folks to walk around, look at well-painted armies, ask questions, have a conversation about it, and get inspired.

Why should painting feel like a job you have to do in order to be treated like a normal person? I don't think that is good for the hobby in the long term.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
As someone who paints very slowly to get a result I can be proud of rather than 3 colour base, drybrush, dunk model in wash like a lot of people I know, this rule disgusts me.

Yeah, but let's be honest here. People who paint well but just need a little more time to get their models finished are a minority compared to the people who have bare plastic armies (often with broken parts due to careless treatment, glue puddles everywhere, etc) because they just don't give a .

What I don't appreciate is that I have seen several communities in which having a bare plastic or primed or even partially painted miniature gets you treated very much the same as if you did not give a crap. Too often I see people placing a huge emphasis on painting being essential to admittance into the clubhouse, but no emphasis on helping or encouraging people to paint in a positive, constructive manner.

If you want someone to paint their models, try offering to help. "Hey, those look great. Do you have a paint scheme in mind?" "I think that would be really cool! Have you thought about this technique?" "You know, I have an airbrush. I bet we could get a base coat on your whole army in an afternoon. Do you want to come over to my place this weekend and lay down a base coat?"

I rarely see that. If other people painting their miniatures is so important to your enjoyment of the hobby, why not take some of your own time and effort to make it a reality?

And I do not mean this to be directed at you personally Peregrine.

But painted models gaining hatred against unpainted is positive reinforcement. Painted models gain something. Unpainted models lose nothing.