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It doesn't take that long to paint an army, except the bad effect of GW's Eavy Metal is to make people think they need to do it to Gold Daemon standard, which is ridiculous.

I think some of it is a generational thing. Boys used to grow up making model kits, painting them and shooting them to bits with air rifles.

Modern boys grow up playing video games. Perhaps they don't build up the craft skills.

weeble1000 wrote:
Who wants to see fat people in a movie theater, right? Fat people are ugly. Nobody likes to be around a place where there's fat people. It is better if they sit in the front then.

I do get your point though. But I would be less upset about a rule that nobody can play with unpainted miniatures. That makes sense if you are looking to keep play at your one man shop on the one available table strictly for pretty looking finished models to showcase the game.

But it is not about making sure the store looks good. It is about encouraging people to paint their models by stigmatizing them. Another option would be to have painting days, or offer to paint some of the models. How about the store owner paints one for two. You paint two models and I'll paint a third! The more you paint, the more of your models I will paint, and I can show you some neat tricks too.

How about saying that you can't play with unpainted models in the store, but you can play with the shop's painted models if you like.

My point is that making people feel bad about not having their army fully painted is a poor way to encourage people to paint their armies and ultimately bad for the hobby. Negative reinforcement is completely unnecessary.

Can we agree on that?

I like that 'positive' encouragement basically boils down to 'give me paints, brushes, time, space and your effort for free... oh, and your wife is pretty hot... some quality time witg her would totally motivate me!'.

Back on topic, another factor is that 25 years ago all wargaming figures were single pose metal castings. If you wanted to personalise them in any way, you had to paint them.

Since then, plastic multi-part figures have become almost standard in GW. Maybe the input of assembling the models gives players the psychological connection that used to be provided by painting.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 aliusexalio wrote:

 Skylifter wrote:
Have you guys even considered that some people maybe just don't like to be put under pressure to perform in their free time? There is enough of that everywhere in our professional lives.

Seriously, you make it sound as if people who paint slowly - because they are either rather new to painting, or because they spend a lot of time on details, or any other reason frankly - were bad, bad people who should not be allowed to play. As if they had to come up with a justification for not painting all the models they chose to buy.

Tell you what: they don't. Nobody needs a justification to do something he enjoys, as long as he isn't harming anyone else while doing it. And playing with unpainted minis is certainly not harming anyone.

Sorry, but you are the sons of silly persons. You can personally choose to never play against someone whose army isn't fully painted if you think that will make your hobby more enjoyable, but acting as if that were a crime against humanity is just childish.

You are not put under pressure. Painted armies simply offer a lot more immersion. Then again you are right, people cannot be forced to paint their armies, however they shouldn't cry like little babies when other people either refuse to play against them or make snarky remarks. Or in this threads case my beautifully painted models gain "hatred" vs your plastic muppets.

And yet those same people making snarky remarks just seem so self-narcissistic (Seriously, vs your plastic muppets? You people show your narcissism very easily) because they painted little toy men, there ARE people who enjoy just the game itself, and not the painting!

"It breaks MY immersium, I feel that they shouldn't play at all because they haven't painted!"

It's just so sickening how downright hostile you people are. Most of you wouldn't help them at all paint if it came down to it, and not everyone wants to ruin their models because they paint very poorly, or really just don't want to use their free time for something they'd consider a chore.

You are missing the point. There is nothing hostile about it. And it has absolutely nothing to do with narcissism. To alot of us this is more than just ''a game", the models are very expensive and painting does take time and effort. Furthermore, I like the 40k universe, I read the novels and I like to be immersed. My armies have a story and fluff. I am proud of my little army and when they hit the table I would like to fight against another army that is also inspired.

Playing against unpainted plastic models is just not that immersive, why did I bother painting and building a beautifull terrain board? Why did I spend hours coming up with a theme in my army and painting it?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 snurl wrote:
Why not simply make the unfinished armies play on unfinished plywood tables?

Hahahaha.... good one!

I don't have enough free time to only play with painted armies; I'd rather use my free time to game than paint (I do paint, but it's a slow process).

So I'd be put off if I was that handicapped because I can't spend time painting (hatred(unpainted) gives a re-roll to hit in CC? that's quite a handicap).

I'd certainly never turn down or complain about an opponent not having a fully painted army, because it doesn't actually affect the game play, and I know people have time restraints.

I do approve of the idea that they must be at least primed though, because it's a start and allows you to distinguish between new/stolen stuff and the stuff the gamer prepared earlier. Using coloured primers also helps.

I'm not shouting Waargh! in a store/club though, even if I don't get to benefit from the rules. Just no.

Yeah I'm too old and miserable to be shouting waagh like.


I'd tell them my Warboss has tourettes the same as me, and as a result always shouts out truly disgusting expletives when we waagh.

They might rethink the rule after I bellow a waagh full of F and C bombs in the face of a horrified parent.

Oh and I also have a nervous condition that causes me to go shoplifting after being exposed to loud noises... did I forget to mention that?

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
As someone who paints very slowly to get a result I can be proud of rather than 3 colour base, drybrush, dunk model in wash like a lot of people I know, this rule disgusts me.

Yeah, but let's be honest here. People who paint well but just need a little more time to get their models finished are a minority compared to the people who have bare plastic armies (often with broken parts due to careless treatment, glue puddles everywhere, etc) because they just don't give a .

Agreed. I paint slowly - it has taken me almost 2 years to paint my Eldar army and even then it is still not finished. It took me about 3 years to paint my CSM (and there are a couple of units I don't have painted which bump me from 1500 points to 2000 which I still need to do).

I've found the best motivator to paint is knowing I have a game coming up, regardless of whether there is any painting metric scores. Even a friendly game means that I am going to break out the stuff that needs painting and get going on painting. I don't have a local store/club without driving into the city, but if I had one in the local town and so could play easily you can bet your butt I would paint the hell out of my models faster than I do now, when I play only very rarely.

Being a slow painter is no excuse for not painting. Not enjoying painting is not an excuse for not having a painted army. I'm slow and hate painting - just means I have found ways of quickly painting models to a reasonable standard and whenever I have a game coming up I try to include at least one unit I have not got painted yet to motivate me

I also paint slowly, and like yourself, always find that an upcoming game motivates me to paint.



@jono - dont disparage people who basecoat and dip. They get their models done, to a standard that they are comfortable, able and happy with. It's a lot better than the grey hordes out there.

 Krellnus wrote:

And what if I want to put in more effort than that? I only get a half day off a week where I can actually do any hobby, if I don't have any assignments, why should I be penalised?
Instead of having this honestly stupid rule, reward people who paint, instead of penalising those who don't.
Something along the lines of if you increase the amount of stuff that is painted in between visits, you get a free re-roll in game, with people who have fully painted armies getting a free re-roll a turn or something?

(Also in reply in part to jono) They get their models done, to a standard that they are comfortable, able and happy with. It's a lot better than the grey hordes out there.

As a painter myself, I can tell you from personal experience that laying down some basic basecoats so your figures aren't horriblegrey when it comes to play with them isn't hard. Sure, you won't have the details done, and you'll need to touch up the odd figure, since it's just unfixed basecoats, but it makes a hell of a difference on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

weeble1000 wrote:

What I don't appreciate is that I have seen several communities in which having a bare plastic or primed or even partially painted miniature gets you treated very much the same as if you did not give a crap. Too often I see people placing a huge emphasis on painting being essential to admittance into the clubhouse, but no emphasis on helping or encouraging people to paint in a positive, constructive manner.

If you want someone to paint their models, try offering to help. "Hey, those look great. Do you have a paint scheme in mind?" "I think that would be really cool! Have you thought about this technique?" "You know, I have an airbrush. I bet we could get a base coat on your whole army in an afternoon. Do you want to come over to my place this weekend and lay down a base coat?"

I rarely see that. If other people painting their miniatures is so important to your enjoyment of the hobby, why not take some of your own time and effort to make it a reality?

Before my local GW moved away, I'd sometimes go in there, buy my WD and hang out for a short time. Especially when my wife was going to meet me in the same mall after she finished work (my work was closer) so I might have an hour's wait. While there's approximately no chance in hell I'd be inviting a stranger from a GW store into my home to airbrush models, I did enjoy offering painting and modelling advice to the people who would be in there working on their models, occasionally fixing a broken model for those without the skill/knowledge to do so (pegasus knights and flying stands!) or even doing some painting on their stuff (eyes, a bit of freehand detail, checkerboards or chapter badges, or some highlighting/shading.) Of course, I never actually played there, but the point is that I'm one of those bastards saying that getting basecoats done for a game isn't especially hard, and I actively enjoyed helping my fellow geeks when the GW was still local.




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 fullheadofhair wrote:

He threw up a picture basically saying look, my unit is painted and it took me 20 mins so you can do it too and judging others. I am saying, actually, if that is all the effort you can be bothered put in I would rather not see it.
The other point, some what tongue it check, is their is always someone more elitiest than you. I wonder if the person who threw up that photo might think twice about judging others after having someone openly judge him in front of others.

I think his stuff looks good, and I'd be happy to play him any day of the week. It looks gakloads better than unpainted models, or any of the stuff I saw in your own gallery. If someone can paint something that looks good in 20 minutes, why is that something to be critical about? I can't paint a damn thing in 20 minutes. Pots and Kettles. Glass Houses and Stones.


"example of painted ones"
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/79954-example%20of%20painted%20ones.html

This kind of situation is pretty much the only time you'll find me saying anything even vaguely negative about something that someone has taken the time to paint. Don't put other people's work down unless you want to be held up yourself.

 Azazelx wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fullheadofhair wrote:

He threw up a picture basically saying look, my unit is painted and it took me 20 mins so you can do it too and judging others. I am saying, actually, if that is all the effort you can be bothered put in I would rather not see it.
The other point, some what tongue it check, is their is always someone more elitiest than you. I wonder if the person who threw up that photo might think twice about judging others after having someone openly judge him in front of others.

I think his stuff looks good, and I'd be happy to play him any day of the week. It looks gakloads better than unpainted models, or any of the stuff I saw in your own gallery. If someone can paint something that looks good in 20 minutes, why is that something to be critical about? I can't paint a damn thing in 20 minutes. Pots and Kettles. Glass Houses and Stones.


"example of painted ones"
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/79954-example%20of%20painted%20ones.html

This kind of situation is pretty much the only time you'll find me saying anything even vaguely negative about something that someone has taken the time to paint. Don't put other people's work down unless you want to be held up yourself.

Oh silly boy - you obviously haven't read the thread. Those aren't my models - I use Dakka to host stuff I am selling that comes from a variety of sources. I never painted those (not even the finished Imperial Fists) - you can tell because they are finished. 99% of my stuff is never finished.

I am quite comfortable with that - it is how I approach MY hobby and it is how I get MY fun but on the flip side I don't expect you to consider playing against an unfinished army if you don't want to as that is how you get YOUR fun from YOUR hobby. We can just be civilized about it and communicate in a reasonable manner.

The point I am making, is many people with painted armies who judge those who don't paint for whatever reason - actually most of your armies don't look that good. They really don't. But why the judging? How offended would you be if you asked some-one for a game and they refused being all elitist about saying "I am sorry but you really haven't put enough effort into that - maybe when you have improved".

 aliusexalio wrote:

To alot of us this is more than just ''a game", the models are very expensive and painting does take time and effort.

I suppose here in lies the issue. To a lot of people, it is just a game.

My armies have a story and fluff. I am proud of my little army and when they hit the table I would like to fight against another army that is also inspired. Playing against unpainted plastic models is just not that immersive, why did I bother painting and building a beautifull terrain board? Why did I spend hours coming up with a theme in my army and painting it?

Fair enough. And I agree that you can refuse to play whoever you like, and this store can put any rules into affect it likes. But you did all that because you enjoyed it, not because someone made you.

It really seems to be a case of stop enjoying my hobby/game different than me.

 Azazelx wrote:
[


"example of painted ones"
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/79954-example%20of%20painted%20ones.html

This kind of situation is pretty much the only time you'll find me saying anything even vaguely negative about something that someone has taken the time to paint. Don't put other people's work down unless you want to be held up yourself.

Not sure who painted this, or what point was trying to be made, but I'm a "painted only" kind of player and I think they look fine. They're rank-and-file minis that are going to look fine. Especially when en'masse on the game table viewed from 3 feet away.

I'm a painted-only guy, but I rarely judge another persons paint job.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

I think some of it is a generational thing. Boys used to grow up making model kits, painting them and shooting them to bits with air rifles.
Modern boys grow up playing video games. Perhaps they don't build up the craft skills.

I really think this is a big part of it. I'm in my 30's, and I've watched video games go from a novelty to what many folks consider (incorrectly, IMHO) to be an essential part of life. Alot of the video game and CCG "buy-and-play" mentality seems to have infested popular wargames.

Those who feel it is an imposition to have to paint their figures are very much a new breed as far has hobbies go. Consider model railroading. Whether prepainted, or self-painted, NO ONE brings unpainted models to the club's layout, no matter how much they paid for them (the prices of high end railroad models would make even a 40k spender's wallet cry) or how little hobby time they say "real life" has left them. Until a decade or so ago, this was largely the way miniature wargaming was.

Model railroad clubs still insist on painting, what's wrong with FLGS's or clubs doing the same?

I wonder if the root of the animosity is folks feeling that a purchase of a game item should entitle them to use that item at that store, regardless of how/if it is painted. It's an understandable point of view (especially when models are so dang expensive) but I'm still sticking with the benefits (to the store, the hobby and the hobbyist) of community standards and painted models.

Gw used to have a standing rule that was fully painted based or you can't even put your models on the table

 gunslingerpro wrote:


It really seems to be a case of stop enjoying my hobby/game different than me.

Not really. If you're playing against someone else, what's wrong with hoping they enhance the experience by playing with painted models instead of unpainted? If you're playing at a public location, why not hope for a better experience than you get at home?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

weeble1000 wrote:

But it is not about making sure the store looks good...

Yes, yes it really is. The store should put in place the policies that keep it profitable, and open.

Go to a club or restaurant, there are often minimum dress requirements. Go to a golf course and there are minimum equipment or skill requirements. It's in the businesses' best interests to keep their regular customers happy, and sometimes that means having a minimum requirement for entry. Whether that reinforcement is positive or negative does not matter if they are keeping their regulars happy and coming back. Self-realization is the customer's own responsibility.
.

 Mastiff wrote:


Not really. If you're playing against someone else, what's wrong with hoping they enhance the experience by playing with painted models instead of unpainted? If you're playing at a public location, why not hope for a better experience than you get at home?

Alright, so hope. But the minute that hope turns into require you've substituted what that person may find most important (the game, human interaction, strategy) with what you deem most important (the hobby, immersion, aesthetics).

i.e. stop enjoying my hobby/game different than me.

People still game at GW stores?

I'm so sorry to hear that.

 gunslingerpro wrote:

 Mastiff wrote:


Not really. If you're playing against someone else, what's wrong with hoping they enhance the experience by playing with painted models instead of unpainted? If you're playing at a public location, why not hope for a better experience than you get at home?

Alright, so hope. But the minute that hope turns into require you've substituted what that person may find most important (the game, human interaction, strategy) with what you deem most important (the hobby, immersion, aesthetics).

i.e. stop enjoying my hobby/game different than me.

The store owner *ALWAYS* Substitutes what he deems most important... PROFIT. He owns the space you game on, he determines how you game. if you don't like it, get out.

You keep talking like you have rights and deserve to be treated equally when you have no rights and deserve nothing when gaming in someone else's space. If you want rights and to control how you game or want a place where you can have influence or input... game at home, or organize a club where you have input.

Human interaction for you does nothing for the store's profit. You enjoying Tactical strategy does nothing for the stores profit. Gaming immersion, painted models, quality tables, opponents with painted models, well run events all do positive things for the stores profits.

What if you were someone who 'hated' tourneys... and a store did nothing but tourneys? "I don't enjoy competitive play as part of my hobby, but all they do is run events!" well then guess what? the store is organizing play, forcing what they determine the 'best' way to play in his store is to make the most profit... and if you don't like it... you know where the door is.

Painting requirements have been around and part of gaming in stores since before many of you were even born. If you don't like it... then get out? You don't have a right to game in public or anyone else's space. Go find like-minded people and enjoy yourself. Accept your way of enjoying yourself may not be a profitable venture for the FLGS. Some people like to do papercraft which is 100% not profitable for FLGS, some like to play RPG games with freeware RPG systems, that is not profitable for the FLGS. Some people play card games with printed out paper proxies, that is not profitable for the FLGS. You can say that those are valid ways for those people to 'enjoy their hobby'. That's fine, they can just do it out on the street or in their own homes.

There are two conversations going on here that are on parrallel tracks and no intersection in sight:

1) The general "unpainted" v's "painted" and who gets to decide how someone approaches a hobby. No-one gets to decide this but the person him/her self. Be respectful towards other people's attitudes.

2) A Store owner making a policy to benefit painted armies which he has 100% right to do and if you don't like you are SOL. Take your business elsewhere if sufficiently offended - I am sure he has done the research and decided lost trade v's gains is lower.

nkelsch wrote:

 gunslingerpro wrote:

 Mastiff wrote:


Not really. If you're playing against someone else, what's wrong with hoping they enhance the experience by playing with painted models instead of unpainted? If you're playing at a public location, why not hope for a better experience than you get at home?

Alright, so hope. But the minute that hope turns into require you've substituted what that person may find most important (the game, human interaction, strategy) with what you deem most important (the hobby, immersion, aesthetics).

i.e. stop enjoying my hobby/game different than me.

The store owner *ALWAYS* Substitutes what he deems most important... PROFIT. He owns the space you game on, he determines how you game. if you don't like it, get out.

You keep talking like you have rights and deserve to be treated equally when you have no rights and deserve nothing when gaming in someone else's space. If you want rights and to control how you game or want a place where you can have influence or input... game at home, or organize a club where you have input.

Human interaction for you does nothing for the store's profit. You enjoying Tactical strategy does nothing for the stores profit. Gaming immersion, painted models, quality tables, opponents with painted models, well run events all do positive things for the stores profits.

What if you were someone who 'hated' tourneys... and a store did nothing but tourneys? "I don't enjoy competitive play as part of my hobby, but all they do is run events!" well then guess what? the store is organizing play, forcing what they determine the 'best' way to play in his store is to make the most profit... and if you don't like it... you know where the door is.

Painting requirements have been around and part of gaming in stores since before many of you were even born. If you don't like it... then get out? You don't have a right to game in public or anyone else's space. Go find like-minded people and enjoy yourself. Accept your way of enjoying yourself may not be a profitable venture for the FLGS. Some people like to do papercraft which is 100% not profitable for FLGS, some like to play RPG games with freeware RPG systems, that is not profitable for the FLGS. Some people play card games with printed out paper proxies, that is not profitable for the FLGS. You can say that those are valid ways for those people to 'enjoy their hobby'. That's fine, they can just do it out on the street or in their own homes.

The GW store here (NYC, 8th street) has two tables. One of them you're not allowed to play on unless you're fully painted.

I hate it.

It's hard enough to find a game / somewhere to play, but then to be told 'oh, no, this empty table can't be used by your models that aren't finished'..

I haven't been back to that store. Probably won't go back.

Sure, a store owner / manager has every right to put whatever requirements they want on the use of their space. But, the rest of us also have a "right" to gripe about it.

This "if you don't like it, get out" attitude is fine, and that's what a lot of people will do, but I'm going to "get out" and then complain about it. "right" has nothing to do with it.

If the apple store required you to have the background of your phone set to a picture of steve jobs in order to get technical support, they'd certainly be within their "right", but then people would leave..... and complain.

Most people who would be effected by this rule would probably be customers buying the models(pay where you play) and a lot of stores even charge for table time.
What I require for both is a safe and comfortable environment to play, using the rule hatred amplify the negatives that pushing people to paint in such a way does. And honestly I think with just the way some people have post in this thread have show that it gives them power to be rather nasty.

This isn't them saying you need to make effort, or incentivising positively in there store, they have chosen the rule hatred and I find hard to believe it was chosen for its small effect in the game.
I would even find them just saying you can't play as more acceptable if your army isn't painted.

 fullheadofhair wrote:
There are two conversations going on here that are on parrallel tracks and no intersection in sight:

1) The general "unpainted" v's "painted" and who gets to decide how someone approaches a hobby. No-one gets to decide this but the person him/her self. Be respectful towards other people's attitudes.

2) A Store owner making a policy to benefit painted armies which he has 100% right to do and if you don't like you are SOL. Take your business elsewhere if sufficiently offended - I am sure he has done the research and decided lost trade v's gains is lower.

The intersection is people who play with unpainted, feeling their human rights are being assaulted by this store rule and then dragging the 'painted vs unpainted' into the conversation.

No one cares or looks down upon you for not painting. But people claim 'being respectful' into 'you must play me or else you are hating me'. I would rather sit at a painting table and paint a mini than spend 2 hours playing against unpainted models. No mater what I do, declining a game and not playing someone they will take that as 'not respecting them' and we enter an unwinnable situation. The simple act of declining a game makes some people gak their pants in rage. The simple act that someone somewhere disallows unpainted models gets them frothing at the mouth mad even though it doesn't impact them.

It boils down to there is an entitlement that "if I deem the game is most important, anyone who refuses to play me must be disrespecting me" and they can't respect my choice to not play them. So to 'avoid' people who are going to carry a chip like that around, I choose to find events where painting is 'required' so I will be with like-minded people and those who don't want to follow the rules are dealt with before I even approach a table. I don't have time to go to a store and choose to play 'Random guy A' over 'Random Guy B' and have Mr. B bitch for 4 hours about his right to have unpainted armies because I chose to play Mr. A and his painted army.

If you have to assault me with excuses on why you don't paint when I decline a game, you are not respecting me... I am not upset that you have unpainted models, I don't have an issue, I just don't want to spend 2 hours playing a game with you then. You should say 'that's cool' and find someone else to play. That takes a level of maturity lacking from a lot of people interacting with strangers at a lot of stores (and seen on this forum). They seem to always take it personally and want to say I am an elitist and they have rights, while claiming they deserve respect when what they really want is for me to sacrifice my existence to serve them by playing a game which I do not want to play.

If someone didn't want to play me for any reason I wouldn't want to play with them really, I wouldn't force them or feel any need or insult.

This is entirely based on the store, and the way they have decided to rule it for me.
I find it as little more than a sour joke at people's expense made into a rule. If a store I did go to where to put this up I would complain, and my business would go another way.
This no way to grow and support a store community.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
My daughter took up rowing last year. She and some of her fellow girl rowers were moaning about getting wet and muddy. I told them they would most likely find there is quite a lot of water involved in the sport.

It's the same with tabletop miniature wargaming and paint.

You two need to combie your sports. Table top rowing! (might not travel as fast)

I find this hilarious, I'm a constant offender of having a partially untainted army, but then so are most of my 'group' at my local (non gw) club, whilst I wouldn't chooses for this rule to be implemented I defiantly think its a cool idea, 40k, and i assume fantasy, is intended to be a casual game after all.

That said, the one thing that bugs me ( and I'm glad the rule covers this ) is the guy with the marines primed black with splotches of gold, who sneers down his nose at you because yours aren't painted yet

Apple fox wrote:
If someone didn't want to play me for any reason I wouldn't want to play with them really, I wouldn't force them or feel any need or insult.

"You can't fire me... I quit!" "You are out of Pie? Your Pie is terrible anyways" "I coudln't go to your party? I bet your party sucked anyways"

basically mentally protect your ego by putting down whatever you can't have or rejects you by filling in the blank. Anyone who refuses to play you *MUST* be a terrible person to play against. You didn't refuse to play me, I refused to play you!

This is entirely based on the store, and the way they have decided to rule it for me.
I find it as little more than a sour joke at people's expense made into a rule. If a store I did go to where to put this up I would complain, and my business would go another way.
This no way to grow and support a store community.

So you mean playing for free on a store owners prime real estate and showing a product he is attempting to sell to new customers in a less than favorable light is helping that store owner 'build a community'? And you think a store owner is going to care what a person who disrespects his store and undermines his sales thinks?

You want to build a community? Then you respect the store, work with the owner and work out a way so during peak times, you help make sales for him through promoting amazing appearance on tables and then negotiate relaxed rules on 'club night' when there is no street traffic. Kids don't know how their actions impact others, but as adults, we sure as hell do. You want to build a local community? that means helping drive sales which means sucking it up once in a while and putting away our unpainted models. Having a little self control and delayed gratification. Play with your 1500 which is painted on saturday and whip out those WIP models on club night.

That is 'building a community' not being an unreasonable burden on the place where you game.

I bet if you asked your store owner, he would say he would rather everything be painted, but won't force it because in general people are selfish and don't think how their actions impact others. I don't want to be disrepsectful to anyone's gaming store, so I pay where I play and bring only painted models to help promote the hobby as much as possible in a positive light for the owner. It is the least I can do for the service they provide by allowing me to game there.

nkelsh, the first snippet about apple fox doesn't seem quite sound! Maybe I misunderstood, or am just too eager to play devils advocate! hehe! A game by the nature of it, unless your playing in a competition, is done so for fun, right? Enjoyment being the #1 purpose. If one person is enjoying the game and the other isn't, it's just that! Seeing as it's a game designed for more than one player, ensuring your opponent has a good time isn't required, but it doesn't make the experience enjoyable for both parties.

If I knew that someone would automatically have a bad time playing against me (despite me being a wonderfully cheery nice guy who isn't a rules lawyer) over the mere fact that I'm X, I would refrain from pursuing a game with that fellow out of respect that he could spend his time playing a game he WOULD find enjoyable (instead of an un-enjoyed game vs. me for X reason).... X could be because my models aren't painted, because I'm stinky, because I reek of booz and obviously drunk, or it could be because I'm of a race that fellow has a prejudice against... there could be a million reasons why someone may not want to play with ME! I don't have to resent them, or be insulted! I also don't have to wish to not play with them also for a superficial reason! I could not want to play with them for the reasons I have mentioned. more or less my point!

It's not merely, "oh John doesn't want to play with me. So I don't want to play with him because of that!"

as it is more "Oh john doesn't want to play with me. So I don't want to waste his precious time by making him play a game with me, that only I will enjoy, as I know he doesn't enjoy playing against me for X reason."

or at least thats how I see it!


this is solely in response to the tidbit here ""You can't fire me... I quit!" "You are out of Pie? Your Pie is terrible anyways" "I coudln't go to your party? I bet your party sucked anyways"

basically mentally protect your ego by putting down whatever you can't have or rejects you by filling in the blank. Anyone who refuses to play you *MUST* be a terrible person to play against. You didn't refuse to play me, I refused to play you!"

cheers!

I have yet to see any proof that requiring painted models increases a store's profits, as all I've seen is a bunch of unsubstantiated claims that this is the case. The mandatory painting crowd are also trying to use invalid comparisons of model railroading, entry into nightclubs, and Private Golf Club memberships to bolster their opinions as they are not even remotely close to the 40K hobby--which has multiple aspects. Some people just collect and paint models, some are just into the game, some are just into the lore, and some think that to participate in one aspect you have to also take part in all of the other aspects as well.

It is as if there are those out there who want to keep 40K as a niche game instead of growing the base of players. They seem to think that there is booming demand for gaming shops to open on every corner, when the opposite has been true with many more stores closing over the last several years. How welcoming is it to a new player to have them buy several hundred dollars worth of models and then tell them they cannot come back and play until their models are painted? How does it help newcomers learn to play game and become more interested so they keep buying products and participate more?

When you see comments about grey models, such as:
It is insulting to see grey models on the table...
It ruins my immersion...
I painted my models quickly this way, so you should be able to do the same...
I work 40 hrs a week, have a family, and still am able to paint my models quickly--you must have the same capability...
It is the younger generation's fault because my generation did it this way...
The only way to truly enjoy the game is by participating in every aspect of the hobby--there is no other option....
Only having painted models in the store makes it look better for possible customers...

...you are left with the conclusion that it is Elitist Fanbois who believe that they, and everyone else, can only properly enjoy the hobby when they participate by their imposed rules, and are ruining the hobby if they do not comply.

Actully I was referring to the fact that if someone didn't want to play with me I wouldn't force them, they don't want to so I can accept that.

You think I play for free ? I am happy to pay for a table and I do every week. I also buy products to support the store, which are more expensive to buy at the store.
I also only play on main days, I talk with new custermers and help support the store as best I can. But at a certain point the store has to support me as a customer also.
Also I don't have issue if a store wants everything painted, if I could I would want to be at that standard.
Response to nkelsch since quoting is broke on iPad for me nowD;

Dolgan wrote:
I have yet to see any proof that requiring painted models increases a store's profits, as all I've seen is a bunch of unsubstantiated claims that this is the case. The mandatory painting crowd are also trying to use invalid comparisons of model railroading, entry into nightclubs, and Private Golf Club memberships to bolster their opinions as they are not even remotely close to the 40K hobby--which has multiple aspects...

What all the comparisons have in common is that they are all businesses offering space for the public to use. Therefore, they should set the rules that satisfies their needs. Which is what this particular store is doing. Whether you see any proof of a financial advantage, it's what the store owner feels works best for his particular customers. It's not an overarching rule beyond their borders.
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gunslingerpro wrote:
Fair enough. And I agree that you can refuse to play whoever you like, and this store can put any rules into affect it likes . But you did all that because you enjoyed it, not because someone made you.

It really seems to be a case of stop enjoying my hobby/game different than me.

Wait, is that me agreeing with the point you're making about store owners, BEFORE YOU MAKE IT? *GASP*

nkelsch wrote:
The store owner *ALWAYS* Substitutes what he deems most important... PROFIT. He owns the space you game on, he determines how you game. if you don't like it, get out.

You keep talking like you have rights and deserve to be treated equally when you have no rights and deserve nothing when gaming in someone else's space. If you want rights and to control how you game or want a place where you can have influence or input... game at home, or organize a club where you have input.

Human interaction for you does nothing for the store's profit. You enjoying Tactical strategy does nothing for the stores profit. Gaming immersion, painted models, quality tables, opponents with painted models, well run events all do positive things for the stores profits.

What if you were someone who 'hated' tourneys... and a store did nothing but tourneys? "I don't enjoy competitive play as part of my hobby, but all they do is run events!" well then guess what? the store is organizing play, forcing what they determine the 'best' way to play in his store is to make the most profit... and if you don't like it... you know where the door is.

Painting requirements have been around and part of gaming in stores since before many of you were even born. If you don't like it... then get out? You don't have a right to game in public or anyone else's space. Go find like-minded people and enjoy yourself. Accept your way of enjoying yourself may not be a profitable venture for the FLGS. Some people like to do papercraft which is 100% not profitable for FLGS, some like to play RPG games with freeware RPG systems, that is not profitable for the FLGS. Some people play card games with printed out paper proxies, that is not profitable for the FLGS. You can say that those are valid ways for those people to 'enjoy their hobby'. That's fine, they can just do it out on the street or in their own homes.

You're being rather quick to jump down anyone's throat who opposes your view. I even state that you don't have to play anyone you don't want to. Odd. It's like I totally agree with everything except your indignant attempts to paint non-painters who dislike this rule as, how do you put it, people 'acting like we have rights and deserve to be treated equally'.

I didn't say that. Most people who don't like it didn't say that. You and I are actually on the same side of this discussion, you're just so quick to demonize anyone reaching the same conclusion from another angle that you missed it.

The issue isn't the store, they have that right. The issue here is the people who think that by not painting, for whatever reason, people are doing the hobby/game wrong, and they are wrong by association. A store can put whatever standards it wants on who plays at it. You can choose not to play people who don't paint, who don't base, who don't waaagh, who don't wear blue on consecutive thursdays in January, that is your right.

Where I disagree with people is where they say 'not painting is not playing the game/hobby right', cause all I hear is stop enjoying the game/hobby different than me

I'm kinda on the fence about this. On the one hand, I personally won't play with models I have not painted as well as I can at the time I painted them.

On the other hand Weeble had a good point, that positive reinforcement might be a better way to go. I don't like painting, and if I was losing games because the rules were slanted against me to try and force me to paint, I wouldn't start painting, I'd find a hobby that I enjoyed instead of one that was a job with chores.

I get that's supposed to be a good middle ground between gray legions and "unpainted models can't touch the table"; but I think I prefer the two extremes rather than half measures. I guess because I wouldn't want to think i beat someone less because I was a good player, and more because I got a special rule to slant the game in my favor and my opponent didn't.

Either way, though.

The "no waaaaaagh shout, no roll" is odious beyond belief though. I'd feel inclined to do a little "waaaaaaagh" as quietly as possible.

I think there is a bit of stereotyping going on here from BOTH sides that people are drawing conclusions on. 'The painters' see 'Unpainted players' as THE WORST that the unpainted has to offer.

I present to you the Unpainted Stereotype. The Flavor of the Month hopping, Win at all cost player who keeps his models unpainted not because he can't paint, but because he needs to be able to sell the models when something more overpowered comes out. This type of player generally has no connection to the hobby and plays only to crush other people in games, he could play monopoly if the rules allowed him to be better then everyone else when using the shoe instead of the car. This is the guy that doesn't even tell his opponent why a move he made is wrong. Doesn't let a single mistake go. Who argues RAW loopholes at the game table and who is just a D-BAG. These people exist, unfortunatly. And i am pretty sure that most of the people who have unpainted models because they paint slow, don't like to paint or just haven't gotten the time to get to it don't want to play with the Unpainted D-bag either.

Next the 'pro-painter' stereotype. This guy sits around painting all day to ALSO have his FOTM army done, he is just lagging either one codex behind or working on the current one. He is every bit the pretentious guy that the unpainted guy above is except he taunts the people that are unpainted with the superiority of his painted models. He writes of the people that paint slowly but much better then him as doing to much work that doesn't matter because he gets all his painting points at tournaments by putting in a day of work so they should paint faster better and harder because he did it to. You don't want to play this guy either, he just crushes your army or whines that his army is not so good against what you just fielded because of codex creep when he is one codex behind and he would have crushed you if he brought his unpainted army that he doesn't play out of principle. Even worse, this guy has enough money and space to buy a new army at every codex release and will ALWAYS smack you in the face with that fact whenever he can.

THESE PEOPLE, Lets just take a weird approach to this thread and assume that these people are NOT the people we talk to. That we are actually arguing the merits of people beeing allowed to play with unpainted models purely based on the fact that allowing people to play actually tends to build a commitment to the hobby that will eventually see them expand their intrests into other aspects, wether thats painting for an unpainted player or playing more for a painting only person. The approach of having a table at the back for unpainted and one at the front where only fully painted armies can play really is a great idea where no one wins but everyone compromises. As for the all painted standard this store handles. Its always sad to see a store exclude any part of its customer base. So I don't really agree with the logic behind it but People should always at least prime their minatures IMHO. If you don't want to prime for resale values, you might actually honestly fall into the type 1 douchebag field. And then i don't really care for your opinion anymore anyway.

so peace out everyone. And have a bit of faith in humanity/fellow dakkaites!