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Dolgan wrote:
The mandatory painting crowd are also trying to use invalid comparisons of model railroading, entry into nightclubs, and Private Golf Club memberships to bolster their opinions as they are not even remotely close to the 40K hobby--which has multiple aspects. Some people just collect and paint models, some are just into the game, some are just into the lore, and some think that to participate in one aspect you have to also take part in all of the other aspects as well.

I disagree with your assertion that Model Railroading (my comparison of choice) is not even remotely close to the Wargaming hobby which you think is different in that it "has multiple aspets". I would say that railroading, in it's many aspects is remarkably close to wargaming, perhaps the most similar hobby out there.

You say that "Some people..."
..."just collect and paint models" -In Railroading some folks don't run trains, they just collect. Some just build. Some do both.

..."some are just into the game" -Some Railroad enthusiasts just want to run trains and have no desire to build and paint. Some choose 0 or 027 where nearly everything is available prepainted and pre-assembled.

..."some are just into the lore, " -Some Railroad Enthususiasts rarely pick up a train, building kit, paintbrush or control module. They are most happy just researching the history of rail lines, the livery of various companies, types of rolling stock, etc, etc...

Just as in wargaming, many railroaders have many different aspects of the hobby, and some choose one part to the exclusion of others. My point is that when it comes time to put trains or buildings on the table, there are some basic visual standards that most/all clubs agree to as well as many other higher standards that many clubs add for themselves. These standards keep the appearance of the hobby high, create expectations that are clear and achievable and result in the polished look of model train layouts that most everyone is familiar with. It's a good thing for the hobby, hobby stores, and the individual hobbyist.

Why I agree that model railroading is similar( I enjoy my trains but more my dads thing), I think it's also has some differences. There is also some differences. That you mention, there are much more pre painted and there isn't really a game in the same sense as with 40k. I have also found it to be a much more personal hobby, and going to the trains club has been inclusive without any negativity towards people.
(I don't think I have ever been to a railroading store that had track set up for anything other than for people to put trains on thay where considering of buying)
I would also say that all the rules thay use are positive in the hobby. At least where I was to go there was no competive game to use a rule like this in.
Why we can draw similarities we also have to allow for differences .

Paint your army.

 Peregrine wrote:
I like this idea. It's a good compromise between banning unpainted models entirely and allowing ugly gray armies without penalty. The only thing I'd change is make it preferred enemy so it also helps shooting units.

 Sidstyler wrote:
I'm more enraged that they force you to yell Waaagh! for the roll.

This. Mandatory yelling is just stupid.

Amen to both the above

In the time posters have spent arguing with the hatred rule, saying it's unfair. They could have painted at least a squad of troops.

DanFST wrote:
In the time posters have spent arguing with the hatred rule, saying it's unfair. They could have painted at least a squad of troops.

You're allowed to paint at work?

Man, and I thought a little forum browsing/posting was pretty sweet...

 Forar wrote:

DanFST wrote:
In the time posters have spent arguing with the hatred rule, saying it's unfair. They could have painted at least a squad of troops.

You're allowed to paint at work?

Man, and I thought a little forum browsing/posting was pretty sweet...

Proof that sarcasm really is lost on North Americans!


Edit: it's late here...... but i think i know what you're reply might be. *Self-facepalm*

*shrug*

You said that people could have painted troops instead of posting their complaints.

I pointed out that just because someone is posting doesn't mean they could be painting.

Match. Point. ;-)

I think this is honestly a good rule, because there's nothing better than two brilliantly painted armies facing off an a vibrant battlefield, it just makes the game so much more enjoyable for everyone. I also quite like that the store has clarified what counts as painted to stop people arguing. This rule strikes me as really well thought through.
It always bugs me when people talk about games workshop "using" players for free advertising like it's some kind of awful thing. of course they're using you for advertising, imagine how much more dull their stores would be without all the players and modelers, and in return, we get a great place to hobby!
I think people are too quick to see the negative in GW right now, when really, a lot of the individual stores are still doing a great job!

I've posted my disagreement to policies like this in a lot of other threads, so I won't repeat them. However, something new I thought of: You know what attracts new people more than seeing two painted armies? Seeing two people having fun. I'd be more interested in checking out a game if I saw two people with gray plastic having a blast than two amazing looking armies having an ok time. Player attitude is a better form of in-store advertising than appearance of models.

 Forar wrote:

DanFST wrote:
In the time posters have spent arguing with the hatred rule, saying it's unfair. They could have painted at least a squad of troops.

You're allowed to paint at work?

Man, and I thought a little forum browsing/posting was pretty sweet...

I've painted very nearly every single one of warhams models at work - everything rhino size and smaller.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
I've posted my disagreement to policies like this in a lot of other threads, so I won't repeat them. However, something new I thought of: You know what attracts new people more than seeing two painted armies? Seeing two people having fun. I'd be more interested in checking out a game if I saw two people with gray plastic having a blast than two amazing looking armies having an ok time. Player attitude is a better form of in-store advertising than appearance of models.

Of course, what beats two players have a great time with a couple of grey blobs? Two players having a great time with painted miniatures. It's not like one excludes the other, you know. Painting my miniatures hasn't sapped the fun out of my games.

 Ouze wrote:

 Forar wrote:

DanFST wrote:
In the time posters have spent arguing with the hatred rule, saying it's unfair. They could have painted at least a squad of troops.

You're allowed to paint at work?

Man, and I thought a little forum browsing/posting was pretty sweet...

I've painted very nearly every single one of warhams models at work - everything rhino size and smaller.

I know somebody that works as a security guard at a parking garage.... Care to guess where he paints?

In regards to the model railroading argument....

Both Wargaming and Model Railroading are kind of umbrella hobbies - with a lot of other hobbies that can be encompassed underneath that umbrella.

I like painting miniatures, a lot of folks enjoy painting trains, and the folks that go with the setting of the railroad.

I like designing a setting - there are some amazingly detailed fictional settings for model railroading such as the much lamented Gorre & Daphetid, (Destroyed thirty years ago, and still missed.)

I like building terrain for gaming - there are folks that go to amazing lengths to create terrain for model railroads. The setting of the Franklin and South Manchester dwarfs the trains.

There is a thriving business in computer wargaming - and games such as Railroad Tycoon have been a staple of computer games for decades.

The comparisons can go on - there are similarities. (And I don't even do railroad modeling - I look because I like the modeling, not because I want to run a railroad.)

The Auld Grump

If only there were GW stores in Michigan that would cause me to have concern about this issue... I was rather disgruntled when I called GW and found out basically all hobby centers in the SE area were closed.

Instead, I play with just a couple friends at our homes. Sure, we use a floor or table and not a nice looking board, but we can manage to enjoy the game.


Also, what about more extreme proxies? Until I have more models, I use some old Uruk-hai for extra guardsmen/cultists where they are needed. Fine with my friends, but to what extent would stores tolerate this?

 Forar wrote:
You're allowed to paint at work?.

I do sometimes bring in stuff to paint on my lunchbreak...

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
I know somebody that works as a security guard at a parking garage.... Care to guess where he paints?

I had a mate in the same boat... He got more work done in the year or so he worked in the garage than in the entire previous decade he was playing 40K.

It's funny to see the painting argument threads pop up every now and again. People get so angry when other people even suggest that miniatures are actually for painting and that the complete hobby is playing games on finished terrain with completely painted miniatures. It's a normal thing, though, getting angry when someone points out you are falling short of a standard. People hate being judged and if there's even an implication of it, they'll cry and cry.

That said, I remember that during GW's greatest period of growth where they grew from a UK only company to an international one, they had a policy of only allowing painted miniatures in their stores with a three colour minimum and finished bases including no bare sand on the bases.

They should return to this and support more in store gaming as a means of having free demonstrations of actual games going on in all their stores. Just like when they grew across the planet.

 insaniak wrote:
I had a mate in the same boat... He got more work done in the year or so he worked in the garage than in the entire previous decade he was playing 40K.

"This job would be great, if it weren't for the f'n customers."


So anyway - what is a different approach for handling this? How could gaming stores provide incentives, positive feedback, to playing with painted armies?

infinite_array wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
I've posted my disagreement to policies like this in a lot of other threads, so I won't repeat them. However, something new I thought of: You know what attracts new people more than seeing two painted armies? Seeing two people having fun. I'd be more interested in checking out a game if I saw two people with gray plastic having a blast than two amazing looking armies having an ok time. Player attitude is a better form of in-store advertising than appearance of models.

Of course, what beats two players have a great time with a couple of grey blobs? Two players having a great time with painted miniatures. It's not like one excludes the other, you know. Painting my miniatures hasn't sapped the fun out of my games.

Ok, but my point was that paint on models doesn't actually make a difference to the impression that somebody walking by the store would get. What are you honestly more likely to notice just passing by outside, the colors of the models on the board, or whether the guys playing seem to be having a good time? From outside a store, the models would just look like little colored specks, but I'd definitely be able to tell whether the players were laughing/smiling or not. Even more so for someone who wanders in to check it out because then they can talk to the people playing. It's a cop-out excuse to say that unpainted or partially painted models are bad advertising.

I can see arguments on either side - I paint my armies, which is the only ones that I have control over.

I like facing a painted army across the board.

But either way... whether the other army is painted or not... I will crush them!

The Auld Grump, well... about 75% of the time I will crush them....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
I've posted my disagreement to policies like this in a lot of other threads, so I won't repeat them. However, something new I thought of: You know what attracts new people more than seeing two painted armies? Seeing two people having fun. I'd be more interested in checking out a game if I saw two people with gray plastic having a blast than two amazing looking armies having an ok time. Player attitude is a better form of in-store advertising than appearance of models.

Of course, what beats two players have a great time with a couple of grey blobs? Two players having a great time with painted miniatures. It's not like one excludes the other, you know. Painting my miniatures hasn't sapped the fun out of my games.

Ok, but my point was that paint on models doesn't actually make a difference to the impression that somebody walking by the store would get. What are you honestly more likely to notice just passing by outside, the colors of the models on the board, or whether the guys playing seem to be having a good time? From outside a store, the models would just look like little colored specks, but I'd definitely be able to tell whether the players were laughing/smiling or not. Even more so for someone who wanders in to check it out because then they can talk to the people playing. It's a cop-out excuse to say that unpainted or partially painted models are bad advertising.

Yes - it really does make that big a difference to passers by. They may not understand the game being played, but they can look at the minis and understand that somebody does a nice job of painting them.

Heck, part of the reason that I paint miniatures in places like Burger King is so that random folks can come up to me and say - 'those look fantastic!'

The best was a mom that told her daughter that I was one of Santa's elves, and later hired me to paint her little girl a Christmas present.

That mom was one of the best liars that I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. She even told her daughter not to stare as I painted her present, because Santa's elves don't like it when people watch them working on toys....

The Auld Grump

Hold on, people actually play games in GW stores?

 frozenwastes wrote:
It's funny to see the painting argument threads pop up every now and again. People get so angry when other people even suggest that miniatures are actually for painting and that the complete hobby is playing games on finished terrain with completely painted miniatures. It's a normal thing, though, getting angry when someone points out you are falling short of a standard. People hate being judged and if there's even an implication of it, they'll cry and cry.

That said, I remember that during GW's greatest period of growth where they grew from a UK only company to an international one, they had a policy of only allowing painted miniatures in their stores with a three colour minimum and finished bases including no bare sand on the bases.

They should return to this and support more in store gaming as a means of having free demonstrations of actual games going on in all their stores. Just like when they grew across the planet.

no bare sand huh? I put bare sand on my troop models... everything else at least get some rocks and shrubery

I've read countless opinions on here, on this subject; which comes up WAY too often. I stand on both sides of this fence. Yes, yelling in a public place is an annoyance, but not being boisterous is rather UNORKY. Oh, now I get it, you are all mad about the paint rule. In the current system where firing armies instead of massive assault armies are being taken. Why complain? Like many of you, I work a day in, day out , 40+ hour week. Heck, my weekend is in the middle of many of your workweek. I have taken the time to at least get my ever-expanding Night Lords to "good" table quality. Because I want to show how far I've come in the hobby since I've started. I think that it is fair to me that if a player comes into my FLGS or GW and wants a game on one of these days, that they should be proud to show off their army instead of just "testing rules to make sure I made a good purchase." If their painted army incites me to ask about how they achieved an effect or vise versa, I feel and I hope they feel a sense of pride in their army and their skills.
Now that I'm returning to Eldar, I'm employing all the new skills I've gained since I first started and am happy to field them as they get painted. Yes, I still have some that need to be striped from my first painting fiasco, and be inducted into my new craft world.
I can honestly say I would rather play against my fully painted and extremely basically based Night Lords, than my grey plastic Space Wolves. I can find 1 hour of my life to work on one model a day.
Oh, and yes I've have taken a small kit of paint with me to work and have worked on a model whilst on lunch. Yes, I got crazy looks, but it did incite a conversation that led to one of my coworkers getting into the hobby and buying my untainted orks army off of me. He and his girlfriend spend time together painting my old primed / assembled boyz. So I'm happy to see them get new life, and have been happy to play against that green tide.
I have another friend who always complains about not getting a game in to test his new tau army, because he doesn't want to play "new players and have to teach them the rules," or "I don't want to play without a fully painted army." So, he will never get snother game in at that rate.
I, on the other hand, have on MANY of occasions have stopped a paint project to play a teaching game or get a game in with my painted army. That is part of creating a friendly environment, you don't have to be fake just polite and/cordial.
I agree that the painting may not be "your" part of the hobby, but you may have a.friend who only likes to paint, ask him or pay him to paint for you. My part of the hobby is all aspects: collecting, assembling, painting, and playing.
Professional sports teams don't forget their team colors at home when they show up for the big game, why should your models? And saying you have no time, no skill, just really sounds like a cop-out to not say you're lazy.
If that store wants to reward that hobbist that is painting and playing with a very minor buff, that is their business. You were not forced to buy or play there.

I've heard that GW are bringing out a new range in the autumn, for players who don't have time to assemble or paint their models. It is pre-unassembled, pre-unpainted. The first release will of course be Space Marines Tacticals, priced at £30 per box of five. Here is a sneak preview of them on a pre-unbuilt terrain board.

Wow - those are not painted really well!

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I've heard that GW are bringing out a new range in the autumn, for players who don't have time to assemble or paint their models. It is pre-unassembled, pre-unpainted. The first release will of course be Space Marines Tacticals, priced at £30 per box of five. Here is a sneak preview of them on a pre-unbuilt terrain board.

Boom, there it is. I personally think the rules are cute, fun things (it is a game, after all). The Waaagh thing is also funny, and if you play orks (THE comic relief faction) that should be mandatory anyways. the yelling makes it like Yahtzee or Uno, just with more dakka.

Anyways, if you aren't going to to make an effort to paint your models, why not just get a big sack of bases with the units names on them, or go play a card game, or chess, or just roll dice for a few hours. a big part of 40k is the models. I'm sure a lot of people disagree, but I think it becomes a slippery slope of laziness.

I'm probably not being completely fair right now, and I'm not saying unpaint-ers(?) shouldn't be allowed to play, but if you aren't willing to accept a minor disadvantage, then I see no issue with playing somewhere else (how many people play at GW stores, anyways?)

 CommanderAlexander wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I've heard that GW are bringing out a new range in the autumn, for players who don't have time to assemble or paint their models. It is pre-unassembled, pre-unpainted. The first release will of course be Space Marines Tacticals, priced at £30 per box of five. Here is a sneak preview of them on a pre-unbuilt terrain board.

Boom, there it is. I personally think the rules are cute, fun things (it is a game, after all). The Waaagh thing is also funny, and if you play orks (THE comic relief faction) that should be mandatory anyways. the yelling makes it like Yahtzee or Uno, just with more dakka.

Anyways, if you aren't going to to make an effort to paint your models, why not just get a big sack of bases with the units names on them, or go play a card game, or chess, or just roll dice for a few hours. a big part of 40k is the models. I'm sure a lot of people disagree, but I think it becomes a slippery slope of laziness.

I'm probably not being completely fair right now, and I'm not saying unpaint-ers(?) shouldn't be allowed to play, but if you aren't willing to accept a minor disadvantage, then I see no issue with playing somewhere else (how many people play at GW stores, anyways?)

Why not just keep your pretty little models up on a shelf then, since you don't actually seem to enjoy playing the actual game?

I mean if all you care about is painting, keep em up nice and pretty to show them off.

Since there is plenty of people saying they shouldn't be allowed to play at all up in this thread.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Since there is plenty of people saying they shouldn't be allowed to play at all up in this thread.

I'd be interested to see you find anyone seriously saying that people should not be able to play at all unless you have painted models. There were a few people saying they remembered when GW stores had a no paint, no play rules. However, I don't recall reading anyone saying either that they would not play unplainted armies, or that unpainted armies should not be allowed to play at all.

 fullheadofhair wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:


"example of painted ones"
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/79954-example%20of%20painted%20ones.html

This kind of situation is pretty much the only time you'll find me saying anything even vaguely negative about something that someone has taken the time to paint. Don't put other people's work down unless you want to be held up yourself.

Oh silly boy - you obviously haven't read the thread. Those aren't my models - I use Dakka to host stuff I am selling that comes from a variety of sources. I never painted those (not even the finished Imperial Fists) - you can tell because they are finished. 99% of my stuff is never finished.

I am quite comfortable with that - it is how I approach MY hobby and it is how I get MY fun but on the flip side I don't expect you to consider playing against an unfinished army if you don't want to as that is how you get YOUR fun from YOUR hobby. We can just be civilized about it and communicate in a reasonable manner.

The point I am making, is many people with painted armies who judge those who don't paint for whatever reason - actually most of your armies don't look that good. They really don't. But why the judging? How offended would you be if you asked some-one for a game and they refused being all elitist about saying "I am sorry but you really haven't put enough effort into that - maybe when you have improved".

My issue with you is not that you have unfinished figures, but the fact that you seem to be going out of your way to be unnecessarily rude to people for no reason. While obviously a fully-painted game looks better aesthetically, I'm happy to play with people who simply manage not to be dicks. If it's a friend, then I'll rib them about unpainted figures and encourage them to be working on them.

Not sure who you're referring to when you say "most of your armies don't look that good" - since I don't have any armies on the web, - me? everyone in the thread? actually - who gives a gak? - if it's a reference to my figures, I don't give two flying hoots about what you think, as you've shown yourself to be pretty rude to people from the other side of a keyboard on the internet, so I'm not convinced that you're not just trolling for the lulz in this thread . So, basically, because of that, your opinion doesn't mean anything to me. Rubber and glue and all that. I will say that SilverMK2's Eldar that you started out on earlier are obviously better than the unfinished figures that you apparently never finish or put out there.

 Eilif wrote:

Not sure who painted this, or what point was trying to be made, but I'm a "painted only" kind of player and I think they look fine. They're rank-and-file minis that are going to look fine. Especially when en'masse on the game table viewed from 3 feet away.

I'm a painted-only guy, but I rarely judge another persons paint job.

fullheadofhair was doing the opposite of following Wheaton's Law in reference to some rapidly-painted Eldar shown off earlier in the thread by SilverMK2 who was attempting to be helpful (they actually look pretty good, too). I chose something from his gallery that appeared to be finished in order to make the point about glass houses. I have no issue with the skellies either - as such. Of course, he's now doubling-down on the Wheaton's Law stuff.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Since there is plenty of people saying they shouldn't be allowed to play at all up in this thread.

I'd be interested to see you find anyone seriously saying that people should not be able to play at all unless you have painted models. There were a few people saying they remembered when GW stores had a no paint, no play rules. However, I don't recall reading anyone saying either that they would not play unplainted armies, or that unpainted armies should not be allowed to play at all.

I also practice this myself. I organize a club that has been meeting every-other-week for 3 years that does not allow unpainted miniatures.

I am not upset that you have unpainted models, I don't have an issue, I just don't want to spend 2 hours playing a game with you then.

I do not want to go back to playing grey anymore

At our tournaments, we also enforce the 3-color rule

If you can’t be bothered to paint your army then you are taking away from the experience of the players who did actually take the time to paint their armies, and that should be penalized.

Then there's the stereotyping..

Its because a number of those people who won't paint their army are either FoTM or WAAC or both. And people don't like those types to begin with.

Unpainted minis seems to be about having the best force as fast as possible then keep changing it. The players with most unpainted minis always seem to be the most WAAC.

. Before, often, people just went FOTM and quickly bought model X that was overpowered just to have it, but now, you gotta paint it at least

And then there's those who want people to be forced to paint just to please them.

By forcing people to paint their models you build a connection between them and their models.

SilverMK2 wrote:I'd be interested to see you find anyone seriously saying that people should not be able to play at all unless you have painted models. There were a few people saying they remembered when GW stores had a no paint, no play rules. However, I don't recall reading anyone saying either that they would not play unplainted armies, or that unpainted armies should not be allowed to play at all.

I'll come close I think. At any public event like a convention, gaming day or tournament, I won't play against unpainted models. Part of what I enjoy about those events is playing with all fully painted miniatures on completed terrain. While I don't insist on it for my day to day gaming, I could totally understand why someone would.

As for GW, I think they should go back to a no unpainted policy and also do more to encourage gaming in their stores. I also think that any independent retailer with gaming space should probably insist on a painted only policy themselves as well. Gaming space in a store serves a commercial interest and product is best sold when the games people see aren't a primer horde fighting the grey plastic brigade. But this must be backed up with painting events where skills are taught and people are shown how to use the supplies involved.