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d-usa wrote: A drivers license is not a proof of citizenship.
I can be an illegal alien with a drivers license.
I can be a legal resident with a drivers license but without the rignt to vote.
Voter ID laws do nothing to change that.
If my name is in the register, and I have any of the state issued IDs that sre freely and legally available to people who are not allowed to vote, then I can cast my ballot because my face matches the picture and the picture matches the name on the register.
So again, voter ID laws would have done nothing to stop anybody from voting that is on the register even if the person is not allowed to vote to begin with.
In Indiana you do have to prove your residency and status to obtain your license or obtain free photo ID from the BMV. Maybe Texas (and other States) would consider doing something similar.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/14 22:19:45
If that's true, your state's DL requirements are fethed up and need to be revised.
Even in Louisiana, you require multiple items of proof of citizenship(either native or naturalized) legal immigration with intent to obtain citizenship, or legal green visa(for certain visiting students) to obtain a DL.
Hell, they almost wouldn't let me get my DL switched back because I didn't have a copy of my Birth Certificate until I showed them that YES, a Military ID is a Primary form of ID in Louisiana.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/15 00:40:36
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Right... it should be left up to the state. You do know that IL, HI and CA requires you to show photo ID... eh?
Of course the stupidity of not letting illegal aliens get a drivers license is a whole other thread.
Why would it be stupid? In fact, most states require you to file SSN and proof of residency. So, if you're an illegal allien, you couldn't possible get a DL.
It doesn't change the fact that having a drivers licenseID doesn't show that you are allowed to vote in the first place.
If the DL, ,or any other "government approved" licenses makes the person go through the initial proof of citizenship... why not? You'd need to be 18 yo, and live in your state in order to vote. The only thing that the licenseID wouldn't do effectively is determine if you're a convicted felon.
And Whembly's and Frazzled's scenarios would still have occurred with Voter ID laws in place.
Right... it should be left up to the state. You do know that IL, HI and CA requires you to show photo ID... eh?
And some states let illegal aliens get a DL
Of course the stupidity of not letting illegal aliens get a drivers license is a whole other thread.
Why would it be stupid? In fact, most states require you to file SSN and proof of residency. So, if you're an illegal allien, you couldn't possible get a DL.
Like I said, it's a whole separate discussion, and really has nothing to do with this topic.
It doesn't change the fact that having a drivers licenseID doesn't show that you are allowed to vote in the first place.
If the DL, ,or any other "government approved" licenses makes the person go through the initial proof of citizenship... why not? You'd need to be 18 yo, and live in your state in order to vote. The only thing that the licenseID wouldn't do effectively is determine if you're a convicted felon.
Or that you are in fact a citizen, since Permanent Residents don't get to vote.
Or that you are showing up in the district you are supposed to vote in.
And Whembly's and Frazzled's scenarios would still have occurred with Voter ID laws in place.
No impact? Riiiight.
Here is Frazzled's scenario:
1) Illegal alliens are voting.
2) He says Voter IDs would stop that.
3) I asked him if the illegal aliens actually have their names on the register.
4) He said that he thinks their actual real names are on the register.
5) Voter ID would make sure that Mr. John Illegal that is standing here is in fact named Mr. John Illegal and that his voter ID matches the name Mr. John Illegal on the register.
6) Voter ID would verify that his name is in the register, which it is, and would not stop somebody that shouldn't be on the register in the first place from voting.
As for your scenario, you have not given any evidence that anything in that article wouldn't have happened if Voter ID laws would have been in place. Verifying that the person in front of you is the person whose name is on the register with a photo ID would not prevent the issues raised by you or Frazzled.
That's what people are talking about when they say "supporters of the bill have not been able to show how it would prevent these issues".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/15 01:03:58
1) Illegal alliens are voting.
2) He says Voter IDs would stop that.
3) I asked him if the illegal aliens actually have their names on the register.
4) He said that he thinks their actual real names are on the register.
5) Voter ID would make sure that Mr. John Illegal that is standing here is in fact named Mr. John Illegal and that his voter ID matches the name Mr. John Illegal on the register.
6) Voter ID would verify that his name is in the register, which it is, and would not stop somebody that shouldn't be on the register in the first place from voting.
You are forgetting a step (at least, that's how MO / IL works):
VOTER REGISTRATION QUALIFICATIONS
Age: Must be 18 years old on Election Day
Citizenship: Must be a United States citizen
Residency:Must be a Missouri resident and must be registered to vote in the jurisdiction of the person's domicile prior to the election
Mental Competency: Must not be adjudged incapacitated by any court of law.
Felony Convictions: Can not vote while confined under a sentence of imprisonment, while on probation or parole after the conviction of a felony, after conviction of a felony or misdemeanor connected with voting or the right of suffrage
ID Requirements: To initially register, voters could use their driver's license number or last four digits of their social security number. These things do not have to be provided if they are not assigned to the voter.
See the yellow text... the idea here is they validate the voting qualification before they come to the poll. Then, when you come to the polls, you provide one of the acceptable IDs, which is compared to the registration rolls.
The problem is the fear of ballot stuffing if the invalid registration isn't purged. You want RAW data... then take a look at the spoiler below... this is NOT unique to Missouri... here's the conclusion:
Conclusions
Without safeguards in place an “inactive voter” list could be a tool for voter fraud, yet such lists are available as open records under Missouri Sunshine Law.
Missouri’s requirement to present an ID to vote is a good check and balance on the bloat in the voter lists.
Even with voter ID, bloated lists offer greater potential for voter fraud if committed by election officials since a name can be “borrowed” from the inactive list to cast a fraudulent vote.
Missouri voter lists in a number of counties invite additional scrutiny every year because of their poor maintenance in recent years.
Spoiler:
Missouri: Comparison of Registered Voter Counts to Census Voting Age Population
A comparison of US Census voting age population data in Missouri to voter registration data shows a number of Missouri counties have bloated voter registration lists.
Charts by county for the years 2000 to 2012 show how counties are maintaining their voter lists.
Voter fraud potential is higher in the Missouri counties that have poorly maintained lists, such as Reynolds County that has more voters than census population, or St. Louis County and other counties with 95+% voter registration when compared to census population.
This is not a new problem in Missouri. Reynolds County has had more voters than census voting age population for more than a decade.
About 10.7% of Missouri’s 4.1 million voters are “inactive” usually with unknown mailing addresses. The 436,000 “inactive” voters are another measure of voter bloat of the state list.
There is higher voter fraud potential in areas of unmanaged voter lists and areas of high voter list bloat measured by inactive voters.
Overview
Yearly US Census population estimates for Missouri counties were extracted for the years 2000 to 2011.
Active and inactive voter registration totals were extracted from the Missouri Secretary of State’s web site for November general elections in 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008 and 2010.
Additional active and inactive voter registration counts by county were obtained directly from files of Missouri voters obtained at 12 different times from 2004 to 2012.
The census and voter registration data were plotted for easy visual comparison of any particular year or trends over time.
Results: County Charts
View the PDF with a chart for each Missouri County comparing US Census Voting Age Population to Registered Voter Counts
[116 pages: 114 counties, City of St. Louis, state total]
General comments about all charts:
The black line represents the total county population from the Census 2000 and the Census 2010 enumeration and census estimates for other years.
The blue line represents the census voting age population counts or estimates, those 18 years or older.
The voter registration points in red represent total registration values (Active + Inactive) from either the Secretary of State’s online reports or from voter files.
The points in green represent only the Active voters. The difference between Active and Total registration, the Inactive voters, is a measure of voter bloat.
Reynolds County: Over a decade of problems
From roughly 2000 until 2008 Reynolds County had more voters than it did population of all ages.
Since 2010 Reynolds County has total registration above 100% of voting age residents. By the numbers nearly all people of voting age in Reynolds County are “active” voters.
Comments:
Reynolds County shows more voters than the US Census says are of voting age in that county and has had that problem for a decade. Reynolds County has NEVER reported fewer people to vote than the census voting age population.
From 2000 to 2004 and briefly in 2009 Butler County had more voters than census voting age population.
From 2000 till 2009 Carter County had more voters than census voting age population.
During much of 2010 Clark County had more voters than census voting age population.
From 2000 to 2005 Dade County had 100% or more of voting age population registered to vote.
From 2000 to 2009 Gentry County had about 100% of voting age population registered to vote.
Holt County had a problem with more registered voters than census voting age from 2000 to 2008.
From 2004 to 2008 Ozark County had 100+% of voting age population registered to vote.
For over a decade until a recent 2012 voter file, Putnam County had 100+% of voting age population registered to vote.
From 2000 to 2006 Schuyler County had more voters than census voting age population.
Shelby County has flirted with about 100% registration of voting age population from 2004 till 2010. Even in 2012 the registration is about 97%.
All of the counties listed above in this comments section received a grade of “F” from Sunshine Review for transparency when the Missouri state average is a “B”.
Even if US Census estimates had been a bit higher for population, Worth County has had 100+% registration of voting age population from 2000 through 2009. Sunshine Review gives Worth County an A+ for transparency now.
About 90% of Missouri’s voting age population is registered to vote.
None of which have anything to do with requiring a person to show an ID at the poll. Making sure that your face matches the picture and the name on the ID matches the name on the register is all that is accomplished by Voter ID laws. It doesn't address what you posted.
So to say "we need voter ID in NC" you present cases from Ohio that wouldn't have been prevented with voter IDs, and when pushed on actually explaining on how the Ohio cases would have been prevented with NC style Voter ID laws you present a different case from a different state..
Reading your posts is like trying to follow a Glenn Beck Whiteboard demonstration.
How about you finish explaining how your Ohio case would have been stopped by Voter ID (which you have not done) before jumping to the next case in the next state.
We will just ignore the political ties of Watchdoglabs.org
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/15 01:52:45
d-usa wrote: None of which have anything to do with requiring a person to show an ID at the poll. Making sure that your face matches the picture and the name on the ID matches the name on the register is all that is accomplished by Voter ID laws. It doesn't address what you posted.
Yes it does... because the VOTER REGISTRATION step is done under threat of perjury!
We had nurmerous cases where a person showed up to vote, only to be told he already voted... and his name on the roll matches to his DL. What that does is raises a red flag on the registration "step".
So to say "we need voter ID in NC" you present cases from Ohio that wouldn't have been prevented with voter IDs, and when pushed on actually explaining on how the Ohio cases would have been prevented with NC style Voter ID laws you present a different case from a different state..
Then keep up with me brah Again, I was providing cases where election issues exists.
Reading your posts is like trying to follow a Glenn Beck Whiteboard demonstration.
Eww... that's horrifying... worthy tale of woe man...
d-usa wrote:
Reading your posts is like trying to follow a Glenn Beck Whiteboard demonstration.
Where do you think he got his argument from?
Alright... step in the ring bro. That's a low blow:
And I'm still waiting to hear how requiring a DL to vote will inhibit any felons who were not convicted of multiple DUIs from voting.
With states using Voting Registration, usually there's a review to determine eligibility. If found invalid, it's struck off the rolls... then, when some felon tries to vote, his/her name isn't on the roll.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/15 02:04:04
Requiring voter ID does not fix voter registration. If somebody gets their name on the register against the law, then the ID will do absolutely nothing except verify that the name is on a legitimate register of voters. If you want to fix voter registration, then fix voter registration. Voter ID laws for casting your ballot don't do any of that.
And if a persons name is on the list when it shouldn't be, it will be on the list wether he walks up to grandma with an ID or without one.
And if a persons name was stricked from the list, then it won't be on the list wether he walks up to grandma with an ID or without one.
I am waiting with baited breath for a case from state #3 that wouldn't be solved by requiring an ID when you cast your vote.
Maybe we can remove the deceased from the register at the same time. Maybe...we can give them current ID cards....
Democrats and Republicans don't agree on much. But they do agree that voter registration lists across the country are a mess.
A new report by the Pew Center on the States finds that more than 1.8 million dead people are currently registered to vote. And 24 million registrations are either invalid or inaccurate.
There's little evidence that this has led to widespread voter fraud, but it has raised concerns that the system is vulnerable.
Election officials say one problem is that Americans move around a lot. And when they do, they seldom alert the local election office that they've left.
Ben Skupien, a registered voter who now lives in Northern Virginia, is pretty typical. He has moved repeatedly over the years and says he's probably registered to vote in about a half-dozen states.
"The assumption, I would think, is that they would do the courtesy of letting the other states know that if you're registered with a new state, [the old registration] would no longer apply," said Skupien.
In fact, states seldom share such information. The Pew study found that almost 3 million people are registered to vote in more than one state.
Voters also die, which leads to another problem, says Linda Lamone, who runs Maryland's elections.
"If a John Smith lives in Maryland and goes to another state, say on vacation, and dies," Lamone said, "the law of the state where John Smith dies dictates whether or not the Maryland vital statistics people can share that information with me."
And even when they do — or if a person dies in-state — there's often a delay before election officials are alerted. It's also not always clear that the individual on the death certificate is the same one who's registered to vote. Election officials still have to do a lot more digging to avoid accidentally taking someone off the rolls who is very much alive.
Washington Secretary of State Sam Reed says it's amazing how many times his state has come across names on the voter rolls that appear to be the same person, but turn out not to be.
"We've even had cases, in very small counties, people [with the] same name and same birth dates," added Reed.
He said that has led to inaccurate reports that "dead" people are voting. He admits there have been a few cases in his state where widows or widowers have cast ballots for former spouses, but he said such fraud is very rare.
Still, election officials say it's important that the public have confidence in the system.
So Washington and seven other states — Oregon, Colorado, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, Utah and Nevada — are joining a pilot program to share more voter information and other databases, to try to make their lists more accurate.
David Becker, director of election initiatives at Pew, which organized the project, said he hopes to have the program implemented in time for November's general election.
"What this system will do is it will take in data from the states who choose to participate, specifically motor vehicles data and voter registration data, and it will be matched, along with some data that many states use already, like national change of address data from the Postal Service," said Becker.
The data will be matched with other government databases as well, such as death records from the Social Security Administration.
Becker thinks that should help states weed out duplicates and mistakes more quickly and accurately. He said the program will also allow states to identify some of the more than 50 million Americans who are eligible to vote but aren't registered.
Election officials can then contact them and encourage them to sign up.
It all sounds great to Lillie Coney of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a research group in Washington, D.C. But she and other privacy advocates say they'll be watching closely to make sure all this new data-sharing actually leads to more accurate voter rolls.
"We do know that there are a lot of people who want to believe that that in fact will be the case, but we want to see the numbers," said Coney.
Coney recalled another data-matching program in Florida where legitimate voters were confused with convicted felons and mistakenly removed from the rolls.
Becker said no one's name will be deleted automatically. Officials are required by law to try to contact the voter first.
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d-usa wrote: Do you have to be a non-felon citizen to get residency in Indiana?
Not that I am aware, however I do not see how this relates to illegal immigrants being prevented from voting when they are ineligible.
Because a DL would do nothing to show that they are eligible or ineligble to vote, and in a number of states it wouldn't even prove citizenship.
So "get a drivers license to show that you are eligible to vote" does nothing to prevent any of the problems that have been cited as examples in this thread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/15 08:55:45
d-usa wrote: Because a DL would do nothing to show that they are eligible or ineligble to vote, and in a number of states it wouldn't even prove citizenship.
So "get a drivers license to show that you are eligible to vote" does nothing to prevent any of the problems that have been cited as examples in this thread.
Felonies are a matter of public record. Illegal immigrants are not, unless convicted of a crime, deported, etc.
Having a system similar to Indiana's that requires you to show proof of residency and lawful status would go quite a ways to help counter voter fraud.
d-usa wrote: And how does "need an ID to cast your vote" fix this?
If there is a problem with voter registration, fix it at the voter registration level.
You don't say "well, X is a problem. So lets make laws for Y".
Except no one is saying "well, X is a problem. So lets make laws for Y". It is all part of the same process. If there is a problem with voter registration then it should absolutely be fixed, but there should be further protection for the integrity of the voting process by requesting ID.
If you don't see how having to prove your residency in a State prevents voter fraud, and prevents ineligible aliens from voting I'm really not sure how else to explain it to you.
d-usa wrote: And how does "need an ID to cast your vote" fix this?
If there is a problem with voter registration, fix it at the voter registration level.
You don't say "well, X is a problem. So lets make laws for Y".
Except no one is saying "well, X is a problem. So lets make laws for Y". It is all part of the same process. If there is a problem with voter registration then it should absolutely be fixed, but there should be further protection for the integrity of the voting process by requesting ID.
If you don't see how having to prove your residency in a State prevents voter fraud, and prevents ineligible aliens from voting I'm really not sure how else to explain it to you.
If you don't see how presenting an ID that matches the name already on the register does nothing to prevent somebody from voting that is already on the register when they shouldn't be, then I'm not really sure how else to explain it to you.
d-usa wrote: Requiring voter ID does not fix voter registration.
Never said it did. Thats a strawman. It should be part of a series of measures to preserve the right of suffrage for eligible citizens, and protect the rule of one man one vote.
your obfiscating, whats wrong with my idea #2. If there is minimal fraud then this measure is perfect as no effort is required. Everyone is happy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: Is there a big problem with illegal immigrants illegally voting?
Who knows? There are lots of allegations and one party is making sure to make it easy to do so.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/15 11:12:43
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Who knows? There are lots of allegations and one party is making sure to make it easy to do so.
Bingo
Illegal immigrants can vote since no one has to show proof of citizenship so sayeth SCOTUS due in part of it being a burden to the individual to provide additional documents beyond what is required by Federal Law I do believe
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d-usa wrote: Requiring voter ID does not fix voter registration.
Never said it did. Thats a strawman. It should be part of a series of measures to preserve the right of suffrage for eligible citizens, and protect the rule of one man one vote.
your obfiscating, whats wrong with my idea #2. If there is minimal fraud then this measure is perfect as no effort is required. Everyone is happy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: Is there a big problem with illegal immigrants illegally voting?
Who knows? There are lots of allegations and one party is making sure to make it easy to do so.
I take it then that you are in favour of spending a lot of money on a new mandatory government bureaucracy which isn't designed to solve a problem that may not exist anyway, without research to find out the reality about cause and effect in the situation.
It exists. I saw it in action at the last election.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Kilkrazy wrote: I suspect there was a lot of voting at the last election.
Thats Killkrazy, always stepping out on a limb with his crazy theories.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
d-usa wrote: If you don't see how presenting an ID that matches the name already on the register does nothing to prevent somebody from voting that is already on the register when they shouldn't be, then I'm not really sure how else to explain it to you.
For the sake of clarity because we appear to be at cross purposes;
Illegal immigrant goes to get ID -> has to prove residence -> cannot do so ->no ID -> not entitled to vote -> illegal immigrant's name will not appear on the registry, or the illegal immigrant will be turned away for not having valid ID (and potentially prosecuted).
Is that clearer?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: I take it then that you are in favour of spending a lot of money on a new mandatory government bureaucracy which isn't designed to solve a problem that may not exist anyway, without research to find out the reality about cause and effect in the situation.
Seeing as the illegal immigration problem is so vast that we don't have accurate numbers of those in the country unlawfully it has a knock on effect for accuracy concerning their other activities. Had the border been effectively policed, and ICE were fit for purpose then this would not be an issue.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/15 20:25:35
If I may share a personal story about how easy it may or may not be to get an ID--not a voter ID, but a state driver's license which in this case would be almost a requisite to vote in North Carolina.
Chicago, where I was living at the time, is a relatively liberal and progressive-ish city (though it has its share of socioeconomic strife and) but Illinois has a relatively conservative state legislature. The state has, over the past decade, enacted a number of very stringent anti-immigrant legislation designed to isolate and identify potential illegal immigrants. Parts of these measures have involved making it much more difficult to apply for an Illinois Driver's License.
I needed to renew my driver's license--I'm from Minnesota. So I went down to the IL DMV with my old Driver's license, my birth certificate, my SS card, and a handful of my mail.
Firstly, the DMV's hours were crazy--basically no hourly employee could ever fit a trip into their schedule if they worked full-time--and the projected wait was around 2 hours.
But I didn't even get that far.
I was told that since I was from out of the state I would also need a passport (which I don't have) and that I would need to provide a current rent statement or utility bill in my name. I did not have a passport at the time (I still don't actually, never been anywhere but Canada and that was in the good old days) and I was not the named bill payer, my roommate was. A copy of the lease was insufficient, so were past utility statements where I was named. My roommate also could not vouch for me.
Aside from me pointing out that the only requirements to get a passport were to have a SS card and Birth Certificate, the man assessing my worthiness to wait in line for service at the DMV--yes that's how it works in Chicago--didn't want to hear anything I had to say and sent me on my way.
I ended up driving back to MN and renewing my license there, which took 5 minutes and was handed to me same day. But that's a moot point.
My point (which may have been lost in this sprawling anecdote) is that I had lived in Chicago for over two years at this point but could not sufficiently prove to the state that I was a resident. I'm sure North Carolina either already has similar barriers in place to receiving a state ID for the first time for non-natives (mostly students or young adults) or is planning on doing so. Without being able to get a State ID, you will not be able to get a voter ID. This is most likely the intention here.
Also, I didn't read all the posts here, so excuse me if I'm repeating this, but I did see some members here discussing the impact of scaling back early voting, and who would be hit hardest. According to recent data, 70 percent of black voters voted early in the last November election compared to 52 percent of white voters. Scaling back early voting would absolutely disproportionately affect black voters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/15 20:59:02
d-usa wrote: If you don't see how presenting an ID that matches the name already on the register does nothing to prevent somebody from voting that is already on the register when they shouldn't be, then I'm not really sure how else to explain it to you.
For the sake of clarity because we appear to be at cross purposes;
Illegal immigrant goes to get ID -> has to prove residence -> cannot do so ->no ID -> not entitled to vote -> illegal immigrant's name will not appear on the registry, or the illegal immigrant will be turned away for not having valid ID (and potentially prosecuted).
Is that clearer?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: I take it then that you are in favour of spending a lot of money on a new mandatory government bureaucracy which isn't designed to solve a problem that may not exist anyway, without research to find out the reality about cause and effect in the situation.
Seeing as the illegal immigration problem is so vast that we don't have accurate numbers of those in the country unlawfully it has a knock on effect for accuracy concerning their other activities. Had the border been effectively policed, and ICE were fit for purpose then this would not be an issue.
You mean you don't have any figures relating to voter fraud by illegal immigrants, so the whole thing is a boondoggle shot in the dark.
Again, I was providing cases where election issues exists.
