Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

His letter is pretty good, but it could stand some improving.

I didn't forget that I said I'd help with it Alex, I'm procrastinating from my own work at the moment with this thread.

 RiTides wrote:
That is not the situation in the text you quoted (or the situation if this thread, either) Alf.

No, but from the point of view of the "jerkwad" store employee that kicked the OP out of the store, if the OP was getting angry and responding in a rude manner, the store has the option of calling the cops on someone that is loitering/causing a disturbance if parents are unable to come pick up said child. nkelsch's comment might have been a little offbase, and Hivefleet might have been taking it as a bit of, "wow America is totes different and not in a good way." sort of angle. My comment was that it's not the common way to handle things here in the states, but it is an option.

As it stands with the current discussion of the thread, it's pretty in line with that. The problem is and I must have missed it, but here is how I have been viewing the thread.

1) OP tells story about getting kicked out because he didn't have his rulebook, and was "loitering" in the fashion that he was not buying anything while making an army.
2) Thread gets "hostile" as people say the store was in the right for kicking the OP out because a store exists to make money. People get on the OP's side because store employee sounds like a right jerk.
3) Thread gets locked for a bit because people can't back off the pedal and it gets too flame-baitey
4) OP says manager calls him in to file a complaint against the employee, OP also mentions that he did get angry at the store employee for how he was acting (2 wrongs don't make a right, etc...)
5) People offer to proofread the complaint, nkelsch comes in and says the store is in the right for throwing the OP out because he was causing a disturbance, and kids have no rights?

Right?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
That is not the situation in the text you quoted (or the situation if this thread, either) Alf.

Actually I disagree, RiTides. Nkelsch brought up the point that if there is a minor present without a parent/guardian(I'm elaborating on what he posted a bit but the gist is there) and the minor causes an issue, then the shop generally has to deal with the parent/guardian. A lot of police departments and the like will respond to situations like that kind of heavy handed and press charges even if it is for something as simple as a first time offense shoplifting or something of that nature.

Shoplifting?

The word "miscreant" was used above (not by you, but still)...?

I feel like we're looking at two different scenarios here, but it must be just different interpretations since we all have the same set of information. The OP wasn't breaking the law and wasn't a "miscreant". The police being called because a 14 year old is in your store who has been coming there and causing no problems for 2 years isn't all that convincing. I'd like to see the PD that would take that seriously and not be annoyed as heck if they actually came out and found the situation as described above.

To repeat:
There was no shoplifting. There was no "miscreant" behavior. The OP came in to buy a product which was out of stock and stayed to play a game, as he has for years. The only change was in the staff member, and their extreme reaction, which thankfully the manager is taking seriously and is asking the OP for a written complaint regarding.

Again, I feel like we're looking at two different scenarios, so I'll agree to disagree... but I'm thankful that the manager is taking the situation seriously, and dealing with it appropriately by getting a written complaint and investigating the matter (and presumably at some point deciding to take action against the employee, or not).

But I really think you guys should be careful with terms like "miscreant", and immediately jumping to crimes like shoplifting when the situation is simply that of being in a gaming store that they regularly attended. Minors have most of the same rights as adults, and in some cases even more. They are not crimes waiting to happen... I just don't see where some of you are coming from with the assumptions that are being made here.

 RiTides wrote:
But I really think you guys should be careful with terms like "miscreant", and immediately jumping to crimes like shoplifting when the situation is simply that of being in a gaming store that they regularly attended. Minors have most of the same rights as adults, and in some cases even more. They are not crimes waiting to happen... I just don't see where some of you are coming from with the assumptions that are being made here.

I used miscreant to describe someone that has behaved badly. Which if the OP was getting angry at the store employee, then yes he would be a miscreant because getting angry at someone in public is not good behavior. I've done it, I'm sure we've all done it at some point or another.

The manager is willing to listen to the OP, gak is getting resolved, I was simply making a point to counter Hivefleet's statement about people in the US calling the cops. I said "If you have a miscreant causing issues at your store, you're free to call the cops. Is this the normal way of things? No, but it is an option." I never called the OP a miscreant in that post and was trying to say, "hey hivefleet, not everyone in the US reacts in a manner that nkelsch is describing.

Edit: OP's words about getting angry: "In reply to what I meant when I said I got agitated, I meant I began to argue my point rather then just getting up and leaving straight away. Maybe I should of just left without question, as some of you are saying, but I strongly believed what he was doing was unfair. If what he was doing was within his rights to do or not, I think if something is unfair to anyone, it should be questioned, that's how I was brought up. I understand this would probably not make me a good house or car salesmen because of how they usually 'sugar-coat' the truth behind there wears. "

 RiTides wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
That is not the situation in the text you quoted (or the situation if this thread, either) Alf.

Actually I disagree, RiTides. Nkelsch brought up the point that if there is a minor present without a parent/guardian(I'm elaborating on what he posted a bit but the gist is there) and the minor causes an issue, then the shop generally has to deal with the parent/guardian. A lot of police departments and the like will respond to situations like that kind of heavy handed and press charges even if it is for something as simple as a first time offense shoplifting or something of that nature.

Shoplifting?

The word "miscreant" was used above (not by you, but still)...?

I feel like we're looking at two different scenarios here, but it must be just different interpretations since we all have the same set of information. The OP wasn't breaking the law and wasn't a "miscreant". The police being called because a 14 year old is in your store who has been coming there and causing no problems for 2 years isn't all that convincing. I'd like to see the PD that would take that seriously and not be annoyed as heck if they actually came out and found the situation as described above.

To repeat:
There was no shoplifting. There was no "miscreant" behavior. The OP came in to buy a product which was out of stock and stayed to play a game, as he has for years. The only change was in the staff member, and their extreme reaction, which thankfully the manager is taking seriously and is asking the OP for a written complaint regarding.

Again, I feel like we're looking at two different scenarios, so I'll agree to disagree... but I'm thankful that the manager is taking the situation seriously, and dealing with it appropriately by getting a written complaint and investigating the matter (and presumably at some point deciding to take action against the employee, or not).

But I really think you guys should be careful with terms like "miscreant", and immediately jumping to crimes like shoplifting when the situation is simply that of being in a gaming store that they regularly attended. Minors have most of the same rights as adults, and in some cases even more. They are not crimes waiting to happen... I just don't see where some of you are coming from with the assumptions that are being made here.

I used shoplifting as an example because it was not uncommon to have minors come in with the express intent of lifting something to 'be cool' at a local shop here in Raleigh. It was stupid and it costs the shop money, but the police would not really do anything as it was nothing they considered to be valuable--and the kids knew that.

You are completely right that yes, it is a good thing that the actual manager is taking a hard look at this incident.
The problem is that people seem so focused on applying Nkelsch's statements to this incident while ignoring that what happened to Alex might not always be the case and that in some instances it would entirely be warranted to ask a minor to leave. There are a lot of blanket statements being made on both sides and it is something that I am trying to avoid making personally.
The other problem is that many of the people seem to be of the opinion that what someone posts on the Internet is always the truth. It's not--and people should be well aware of that by now. It would not have been the first time nor will it likely be the last that people have tried to use Dakka to badmouth their local store when they feel that they were "mistreated".

I will apologize for doubting Alex at this point, as if the circumstances were bad enough that the manager had other customers complaining to him that the employee's treatment of Alex was bad--then they lend credence to Alex's side of the story.

I don't have any reason to doubt the OP's word, especially after he came out and said, "yeah I got agitated and didn't immediately walk away."

I don't doubt this will get resolved.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

I just hope those folks don't act like that in real life, ESPECIALLY at gaming stores. I've had enough with the angry nerd stereotypes, which sadly perpetuate because of angry nerds like the ones in this thread.

Pot calling the kettle black.

LOL! You're funny, at least I hope you are joking. But seriously now, do you act this "charming" in real life?

 Kanluwen wrote:
I will apologize for doubting Alex at this point, as if the circumstances were bad enough that the manager had other customers complaining to him that the employee's treatment of Alex was bad--then they lend credence to Alex's side of the story.

I appreciate that Kan, and that's also where I'm coming from- if the incident generated complaints from other (presumably somewhat unbiased) observers, it means something likely was out of order.

I also agree that things that get posted on the internet are often not totally factual, can be one-sided, etc... but the circumstances here seem to point to mistreatment of the OP. My own post was reacting to some statements in here that have painted minors with a very large brush, which I don't think is fair at all... any moreso than it is fair to make general statements about any large category of people.

As the manager is investigating it, hopefully there will be a resolution to the matter after the OP submits the complaint in writing (as requested by the manager).

Super Newb wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

I just hope those folks don't act like that in real life, ESPECIALLY at gaming stores. I've had enough with the angry nerd stereotypes, which sadly perpetuate because of angry nerds like the ones in this thread.

Pot calling the kettle black.

LOL! You're funny, at least I hope you are joking. But seriously now, do you act this "charming" in real life?

Actually, I've played Borderlands on Xbox live with Kan, and he's a really nice guy. We've been on opposing views on a lot of things, and I've gritted my teeth at some of his comments before, but it doesn't change the fact that he's a good guy. Also, I believe he's one of (maybe the only) to apologize to Alex over this thread. Speaks highly of him. I realize that was around the time you posted, so it may have been missed, so this isn't an attack: just saying that he is a nice guy.

I do have a problem with swearing, I'll wholeheartedly admit that.

I'm doing much better at getting that under control though...and it really only affects me when on Live. It's bizarre.

I swore FAR more than you did on BL2. Lol.

Alex, I saw you sent out letters to anyone who offered, but I didn't get one. If you'd like another set of eyes, I'm currently bored at work and I'll take a peek at it.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

I just hope those folks don't act like that in real life, ESPECIALLY at gaming stores. I've had enough with the angry nerd stereotypes, which sadly perpetuate because of angry nerds like the ones in this thread.

Pot calling the kettle black.

LOL! You're funny, at least I hope you are joking. But seriously now, do you act this "charming" in real life?

Actually, I've played Borderlands on Xbox live with Kan, and he's a really nice guy. We've been on opposing views on a lot of things, and I've gritted my teeth at some of his comments before, but it doesn't change the fact that he's a good guy. Also, I believe he's one of (maybe the only) to apologize to Alex over this thread. Speaks highly of him. I realize that was around the time you posted, so it may have been missed, so this isn't an attack: just saying that he is a nice guy.

Holy cow, that's a stunning endorsement, considering Xbox Live brings out the worst in humanity lol. I didn't know it was possible for peopel to be nice on there.

 Kanluwen wrote:

I will apologize for doubting Alex at this point, as if the circumstances were bad enough that the manager had other customers complaining to him that the employee's treatment of Alex was bad--then they lend credence to Alex's side of the story.

Nice to see that response Kan , kinda made my day. The internets grows up all in one post.

Wow this thread has been an... interesting... Read.

Some people have very strange opinions on what children are like.

Just offering my opinion now:
My local GW (Swindon, if anybody was wondering) is about an hour and a half bus journey away from me.
In January they decided to stop open gaming / hobbying in store. Instead you can call and "book" some staff help with things (modelling, painting, playtesting etc).
They still do events and such like.
But even they allow me (a 15 year old by the way) to spend 4/5 hours in store chatting and browsing, even though I'm not necessarily going to buy anything, because I've been a patron for years, I do in fact spend money in there quite often, and because they aren't horrible people (for want of a better word).

So I would just like to commend Alex on his general manner of handling the whole situation. He managed to keep his cool while thoroughly ticked off in a heat-of-the-moment situation. He has responded in a level-headed and articulate manner to some rather aggressive people on this thread, and has taken a mature course of action in the circumstances presented.

I wish Alex the best of luck, and I wish *some* of the posters of Dakka would learn to treat children with at least some manner of respect.
-TG

What's the minimum age to work in the UK?

 cincydooley wrote:
What's the minimum age to work in the UK?

Realistically 16, but 14 is possible with certain restrictions on hours, conditions etc

For full time work (as in what you expect of a working adult )16. However, 14 and 15 can work times from 7am to like 6pm and nothing outside that, no heavy lifting, no inappropriate content in the job and crucially, minimum wage doesn't apply.

So instead of hanging around in local shops, these kids could be working? Hmmmm .

I'd add "or couldn't they be playing sports" but then I realized that a lot of the kids that would be inclined to hang out in an LGS of hours on end during their summer may not be interested in participating in sports.

I know when I was 14-18, my summers were full with working and sports, that's for sure.

I'd just like to say to those people who thinks that kids should be working....do you know how hard it is to get a job in this economy? There are many, many graduates who can't even get jobs - people who are much more flexible in what they can do and most of them more mature and with work experience already. How can minors compete with them? So for those of you saying that 14yo kids should just go and get a job, I think you need to take a long, hard look at reality. Time's have changed and the job market currently is really tough, especially for entry-level candidates with no experience.

 jy2 wrote:
I'd just like to say to those people who thinks that kids should be working....do you know how hard it is to get a job in this economy? There are many, many graduates who can't even get jobs - people who are much more flexible in what they can do and most of them more mature and with work experience already. How can minors compete with them? So for those of you saying that 14yo kids should just go and get a job, I think you need to take a long, hard look at reality. Time's have changed and the job market currently is really tough, especially for entry-level candidates with no experience.

Oh horsegak. It's incredibly easy to find menial, unskilled labor at restaurants and In retail. Those graduates that "can't get jobs" can't get jobs in their fields of study and many are unwilling to take "lesser work." When I was laid off from my teaching job, it took me 10 days to find part time work at FedEx. The jobs that a 14-16 year would be taking are precisely those "lesser jobs" intended as part time work.

Give. Me. A. Break.

 cincydooley wrote:
So instead of hanging around in local shops, these kids could be working? Hmmmm .

I'd add "or couldn't they be playing sports" but then I realized that a lot of the kids that would be inclined to hang out in an LGS of hours on end during their summer may not be interested in participating in sports.

I know when I was 14-18, my summers were full with working and sports, that's for sure.

So I take it as an adult of legal employment age you never ever hang out at the game shop and play games or anything since you could be working instead?

 jy2 wrote:
I'd just like to say to those people who thinks that kids should be working....do you know how hard it is to get a job in this economy? There are many, many graduates who can't even get jobs - people who are much more flexible in what they can do and most of them more mature and with work experience already. How can minors compete with them? So for those of you saying that 14yo kids should just go and get a job, I think you need to take a long, hard look at reality. Time's have changed and the job market currently is really tough, especially for entry-level candidates with no experience.

Actually, under-16s are better for employers in the fields they can get jobs, that is, paper runs, shop assistant, menial duties as they arn't likely to leave at the drop of the hat, and the minimum wage doesn't apply. Its literally just an agreement on wage, whether that's 1p or £1m.

 Deadshot wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
I'd just like to say to those people who thinks that kids should be working....do you know how hard it is to get a job in this economy? There are many, many graduates who can't even get jobs - people who are much more flexible in what they can do and most of them more mature and with work experience already. How can minors compete with them? So for those of you saying that 14yo kids should just go and get a job, I think you need to take a long, hard look at reality. Time's have changed and the job market currently is really tough, especially for entry-level candidates with no experience.

Actually, under-16s are better for employers in the fields they can get jobs, that is, paper runs, shop assistant, menial duties as they arn't likely to leave at the drop of the hat, and they're easier to exploit .

Fixed

 cincydooley wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
I'd just like to say to those people who thinks that kids should be working....do you know how hard it is to get a job in this economy? There are many, many graduates who can't even get jobs - people who are much more flexible in what they can do and most of them more mature and with work experience already. How can minors compete with them? So for those of you saying that 14yo kids should just go and get a job, I think you need to take a long, hard look at reality. Time's have changed and the job market currently is really tough, especially for entry-level candidates with no experience.

Oh horsegak. It's incredibly easy to find menial, unskilled labor at restaurants and In retail. Those graduates that "can't get jobs" can't get jobs in their fields of study and many are unwilling to take "lesser work." When I was laid off from my teaching job, it took me 10 days to find part time work at FedEx. The jobs that a 14-16 year would be taking are precisely those "lesser jobs" intended as part time work.

Give. Me. A. Break.

Maybe in America. The UK has enormous youth unemployment for a reason.

Too lazy to take jobs that foreign labourers walk into?

And just what the feth does his employment status have to do with whether or not this customer received poor customer service?

 Kanluwen wrote:

"I used shoplifting as an example because it was not uncommon to have minors come in with the express intent of lifting something to 'be cool' "

There are a lot of blanket statements being made on both sides and it is something that I am trying to avoid making personally.

Didn't even last one post.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
And just what the feth does his employment status have to do with whether or not this customer received poor customer service?

No idea. But I'm sure Cincy, Kan and Nkelsch will all be back in a short while to tell us why we're wrong....

I'd put it the other way round - if a kid is old enough to be working at 14 it is old enough to earn his/her own money and shouldn't be treated much differently from an adult customer in a store (especially a toy/hobby store).

So, frankly, I think the question whether he is a juvenile 'loiterer' or an adult 'loiterer' should be irrelevant. At 14 someone shouldn't have to be supervised by their parents (or other adult) 24/7 - actually I would be very much afraid for a 14-year-old's ability to function in society later on if he actually requires to have an adult constantly looking over his shoulder...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
And just what the feth does his employment status have to do with whether or not this customer received poor customer service?

Nothing at all? Never said it did. I just noticed there were a lot of younger folks participating in this thread that dont seem to be working during the summer.

@AduroT - well, simply, no I don't. Any time I spend at the LGS is done either after 6pm (after work) or on Saturday. I have to admit I don't typically hang out there for more than 3-4 hour though, which is long enough to grab a game or two. We do occasionally go on work holidays as well.