Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I know they don't even use metal anymore, but I was kind of curious when the changeover happened. Does anybody know?

 Barzam wrote:
I know they don't even use metal anymore, but I was kind of curious when the changeover happened. Does anybody know?

White metal was around 2000, I think.

They switched from pewter to 'white metal' (a tin alloy) around 1997-98. The relaunch of Epic was the first full range to be done entirely in white metal, other stuff was gradually shifted over just like Finecast was.
They also had some big sales a bit later on to unload old pewter models, as I think there was some EU directive that made lead models illegal.

And if you're wondering, yes it was accompanied by a price increase justified by 'better quality'.

There was also just as much hate over the change.

I still remember the first Terminator box set, 5 lead models, such fine detail. Models lost a lot of detail in the switch to non-lead pewter, which also accounts for the size increase from 25mm to "heroic" 28mm. That was back in the late 80's. the worldwide ban on lead happened in the early 90's, which hit every miniatures company. Citadel, Marsuder, FASA, Ral Partha, SoL, etc. They were all effected.

SJ

...and all because some idiot couldn't resist eating it. *sigh* Take off the warning labels and let the problems resolve themselves, I say...

Maybe that's why the Battletech minis all look like gak, since they were made out of lead originally? Sorry, I'm just searching for some justification on how things that horrible looking are actually sold for money (although they actually appear to have improved quite a bit from what I remember when I went looking for examples).

So, what edition of 40k was most effected when they did the switch? What was the current version at the time?

 Barzam wrote:
So, what edition of 40k was most effected when they did the switch? What was the current version at the time?

One guy mentioned late 80s. I'm guessing that has to be somewhere around early 2nd edition, but I couldn't say. I got in about the time the first Tau codex was getting released.

It was late *90s*, not 80s - which was 3rd edition. Everything had been migrated over by the time 4th hit.

It was in 1997 at the end of 2nd edition 40k, by the time 3rd hit (1998) it had all changed over.

So it was... I stand corrected. That'll teach me to trust my memory - thanks, Howard.

Been out for awhile have you?

They had a massive sale (yes a sale!) of all their 'lead' models and a complete restock in white metal.

I was 15 when the first Termie box set came out, which was in 1987-88. The switch over to lead-free pewter was when I was in my late teens, circa 1990-91. My 1st Ed lead Imperial Guard is still on the shelf, while my 2nd Ed Marine, Sister, and Necron armies are white metal. My 3rd Ed Grey Knights were the last metal army I bought, while the all plastic 5th Ed Grey Knights army is what I currently play, 25 years later.

In comparison, the older lead units look pretty bad, almost cartoonish yet still very detailed. They are also tiny, grot-sized humans. However, the pewter Marines tower over my lead IGs, have great grose detail while lacking in the fine detail the tiny lead guys have. One reason the Sister models look so bad is because they were modeled for lead molds, but not re-modeled for pewter. The plastics are gorgeous, though.

SJ

I don't remember exact dates, but I do remember Ral Partha miniatures changing over from lead-based metals to white metals while I was heavily into D&D 2nd Ed, so this would have been the very early 90s.

From WD 207 (March 1997):

http://i.imgur.com/0KNzdro.jpg?1

Wasn't March 1997 when GW bought Citadel Miniatures? I remember that Citadel had purchased Marsuder, putting the two official 40k/WHFB miniature companies under one roof, followed by GW acquiring Citadel about 5 years later, circa 1997. Before they bought Citadel. GW was a rules company, not a miniatures company.

SJ

Wait, what? So it was GW who came up with "White Metal" for the miniatures for the very first time? This is interesting to know.

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
Wait, what? So it was GW who came up with "White Metal" for the miniatures for the very first time? This is interesting to know.

Wha? No, the switch to white metal predates GW's purchase of Citadel by a number of years.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I was 15 when the first Termie box set came out, which was in 1987-88. The switch over to lead-free pewter was when I was in my late teens, circa 1990-91.

Unless the US switched earlier than the rest of the world, it was later than that. Right at the end of 2nd (97-98) sounds right to me. I didn't start playing 40K until 1994, and I was playing for a few years before it changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:
And if you're wondering, yes it was accompanied by a price increase justified by 'better quality'.

Actually the White Dwarf article on it, while mentioning the better quality, pinned the price increase as an unfortunate side-effect of tin being more expensive than lead.

 insaniak wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I was 15 when the first Termie box set came out, which was in 1987-88. The switch over to lead-free pewter was when I was in my late teens, circa 1990-91.

Unless the US switched earlier than the rest of the world, it was later than that. Right at the end of 2nd (97-98) sounds right to me. I didn't start playing 40K until 1994, and I was playing for a few years before it changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:
And if you're wondering, yes it was accompanied by a price increase justified by 'better quality'.

Actually the White Dwarf article on it, while mentioning the better quality, pinned the price increase as an unfortunate side-effect of tin being more expensive than lead.

Yep, seconded.

I was still playing when it happened, and I quit at the very start of 3rd.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Wasn't March 1997 when GW bought Citadel Miniatures?

They never 'bought' Citadel. Citadel was an off-shoot of Games Workshop, started up when they wanted to start producing their own miniatures. At some point after Jackson and Livingston left, it was absorbed into Games Workshop as part of a re-work of the company into a single entity. No idea off the top of my head when that actually happened, but I would suspect early '90s.

 insaniak wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Wasn't March 1997 when GW bought Citadel Miniatures?

They never 'bought' Citadel. Citadel was an off-shoot of Games Workshop, started up when they wanted to start producing their own miniatures. At some point after Jackson and Livingston left, it was absorbed into Games Workshop as part of a re-work of the company into a single entity. No idea off the top of my head when that actually happened, but I would suspect early '90s.

Check your history. Citadel was founded by HG Wells, back when little tin soldiers were all the rage in England. Marauder Miniatures was much more recent, and primarily produced large squad packs for GW games. Neither company was owned by GW until the late 90's. marauder was purchased by Citadel shortly after the lead ban, and Citadel was purchased by GW a number of years after that.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
Wait, what? So it was GW who came up with "White Metal" for the miniatures for the very first time? This is interesting to know.

Wha? No, the switch to white metal predates GW's purchase of Citadel by a number of years.

SJ

Right, Citadel Miniatures was the one coming up with the miniatures, GW was a separate entity back then, correct? I only joined "the Hobby" last year, so there's plenty of history I'm slowly learning

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Check your history. Citadel was founded by HG Wells, back when little tin soldiers were all the rage in England. Marauder Miniatures was much more recent, and primarily produced large squad packs for GW games. Neither company was owned by GW until the late 90's. marauder was purchased by Citadel shortly after the lead ban, and Citadel was purchased by GW a number of years after that.
SJ

GW is probably lying, but this was on their investor pages:
"In 1981 Games Workshop helped to found Citadel Miniatures Limited, a manufacturer of metal miniatures based at Newark-on-Trent, in Nottinghamshire."
I couldn't find mention of Wells in relation to Citadel, who bought from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Britain

GW was founded by Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone (Steve Jackson of Steve Jackson games, and Ian Livingstone has since made his way into videogaming - both were previously responsible for the Fighting Fantasy series of gamebooks, among other things).

I hadn't heard of H G Wells ever being involved with Games Workshop at all. Not surprising, really, considering he came up with Little Wars many decades before GW was a glint in anyone's bank balance.

As for Citadel - it was technically a separate company, but it still came under GW management. Not unlike how Wrigleys is owned by Mars, for example. It's fairly common for businesses to split different functions into different sub-companies, or to draw them back in together, usually to facilitate big changes in corporate strategy or for tax reasons.

Wow, that's just ... wow. We went from history to fan-fiction, in just a handful of posts.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
fan-fiction

Um, where?
How is HG Wells tied up with Citadel?

My recollection of the switch was late 80's, early 90's. I'm not positive if GW was doing it at the time, but I'm pretty sure they and all the other mini companies did in that time frame. Could this be a regional thing? Were those of us in North America changed before you folks across the pond? Because I know it happened before I left for college, and I graduated high school in '93.