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I think there will be a surprising number of takers

A fair number of folk (mistakenly in my opinion) don't seem to care about the background and just want rules

Some just don't like buying second hand (ugh ebay! somebody else has touched this) and also can't imagine buying anything they don't want to use (so no DV box set for them as that would mean needing to play DA and Chaos)

So they'll buy this, not the cheapest way to do it, but then again what is in the wonderful world of GW

:-). Gencon must have fethed me up.

Imposter101 wrote:Well, you can buy the Dark Vengeance rule book from eBay for (generally) under £15. This is double that price. It's also only £10 under the BRB which has double the pages and is of the same standard and quality.

 Imposter101 wrote:
But the problem is, it's only £10 more for a book of the exact same quality, and almost double the pages.

£15 more, for more than double the pages (almost triple).

conker249 wrote:Im looking at this as they are selling this book for 50$ USD and it has 168 pages. The main book is 75$ USD and has 452 pages. Quite a difference for 15$.

25$.

My issue in a nutshell:

Big Hardcover Book:
452 pages
11 inches x 8 inches
$74.25 per book
$0.16 per page
$0.002 per square inch

Small Hardcover Book:
168 pages
8 inches x 6 inches
$49.50 per book
$0.29 per page
$0.006 per square inch


For 66% of the price you get 37% the page count or 20% of the paper that you would get for the big book.
The price per page increased 81%. The price per square inch increased by 200%.

That's my problem with this "deal".

 Steve steveson wrote:
And this, to me, says allot about what people want and why GW ignore them. The book seems a reasonable price to me for what it is. A high quality hard back book in trade hard back size. A similar size novel on low quality paper is £20-£25. This is on high quality gloss paper with high quality print. £30 seems like the correct price for what it is.

Wether it is the correct format is another matter. For me it is. I like hard back books, but then I can see why people were wanting soft back.

I have several hard cover collections of full colour artwork on higher quality paper with more pages that cost much less than this. This is still ludicrously expensive, even for what they're offering.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I don't think this is trade hard back size; it is smaller, both in content as well as actual size,than the full size book.

It could be a midget holding the book, but it looks about trade size, so bigger than the DV softback, smaller than the Big One.

That book is £30??!! Ye gods..

Actually, just looking on the side of the screen at the other items on sale, there is some tremendously cheap looking skull tape measure thing for £10 .. I guess I'm just completely out of touch with how much GW stuff costs these days!

For £30 you can buy any other companies full size hardback rulebook. Art & fluff an all. GW seen to think that hardbacks are a revolution but gw as ever are about 10 years behind. Hardbacks aren't all that expensive nor have they ever been. This is just typical gw gouging the idiots still gullible enough to pay over the odds for so little. Lousy rules, bad typos, power creep units, over done rules for new stuff which forces people to buy new stuff, rules that invalidate models wtc

Motograter wrote:
For £30 you can buy any other companies full size hardback rulebook. Art & fluff an all. GW seen to think that hardbacks are a revolution but gw as ever are about 10 years behind. Hardbacks aren't all that expensive nor have they ever been. This is just typical gw gouging the idiots still gullible enough to pay over the odds for so little. Lousy rules, bad typos, power creep units, over done rules for new stuff which forces people to buy new stuff, rules that invalidate models wtc

I'm always happy to stick the boot in to GW when they deserve it, but I am also a customer when it suits me.

I object to being referred to as an idiot, I also would rather we didn't get posts like this, as it does nothing for those who would try to objectively criticise in the same manner as the occasional ludicrous White Knightery does nothing for those who are fans.

Gotta wonder who will bother with a $50 hardcover mini-book. The whole point of mini-books are transportability and this is just more annoying for that.

 d-usa wrote:
For 66% of the price you get 37% the page count or 20% of the paper that you would get for the big book.
The price per page increased 81%. The price per square inch increased by 200%.

That's my problem with this "deal".

Motograter wrote:
For £30 you can buy any other companies full size hardback rulebook. Art & fluff an all. GW seen to think that hardbacks are a revolution but gw as ever are about 10 years behind. Hardbacks aren't all that expensive nor have they ever been. This is just typical gw gouging the idiots still gullible enough to pay over the odds for so little. Lousy rules, bad typos, power creep units, over done rules for new stuff which forces people to buy new stuff, rules that invalidate models wtc

Wait a second. You guys are getting all bent out of shape because GW is selling a product you don't need to buy, aren't being forced to buy, and can get the same stuff in softcover for less?



I swear to God, people will act like GW peed in their Cheerios over any little thing.

 azreal13 wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
i don't know why people expect gw to compete with resale on ebay. They sell the starter set at a loss anyway so i doubt they could sell that mini rulebook for cheaper than ebay while still making money.

The starter set is almost definitely not sold at a loss.

Exactly how much do you think a few sprues of plastic and a book cost to manufacture?!!

well given that gw's overall profit margin is around 17%, i dont see how the box set, that costs around half of its constituant parts, could be possible.

I don't know how much a few sprues of plastic costs to manufacture, nor do i know how much it costs to have it boxed (the boxes will have to be manufactured, printed and shipped to nottingham remember), pay the packing operatives wage, pay their national insurance contributions and pensions, pay their superviser, pay the guy who distrobutes the packaging, pay *his* ni and pension, pay their supervisors, pay the despatch operative who picks the box up, pay for his pallet truck, pay for the scanner and computer to log the damn thing, pay the lorry driver to pick it up, pay to keep the lights on, pay the cleaner to clean the staff toilets, pay the planners who organise all this, pay the fork lift driver, pay the goods in operatives to unload the plastics and packaging.

Then of course you have to pay for the shops - have to pay for the lights, the heating, the gas, have to pay the employees salary, national insurance and pensions, have to pay for the shiny graphics to outfit the shop (and pay someone to organise the logistics of said graphics), have to pay the delivery guy to deliver the stuff, have to pay the guy who distrobutes stock accross stores...then of course you have to do this all over the world.

But hey, this is the internet. You're right, gw kits only cost a few pence to produce! Shame on them, they should be giving this stuff away, right?

Ah, bless you.

So, if their profit margin at RRP is 17%, how on earth do they sell to third party retailers at 40% off and still make a profit?

You need to learn the difference between net and gross.

Edited by AgeOfEgos

 Breotan wrote:
Wait a second. You guys are getting all bent out of shape because GW is selling a product you don't need to buy, aren't being forced to buy, and can get the same stuff in softcover for less?

No, what they are seeing is a not well thought out, overpriced book, and saying so. As is the right of every Imperial Citizen.

 Breotan wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
For 66% of the price you get 37% the page count or 20% of the paper that you would get for the big book.
The price per page increased 81%. The price per square inch increased by 200%.

That's my problem with this "deal".

Motograter wrote:
For £30 you can buy any other companies full size hardback rulebook. Art & fluff an all. GW seen to think that hardbacks are a revolution but gw as ever are about 10 years behind. Hardbacks aren't all that expensive nor have they ever been. This is just typical gw gouging the idiots still gullible enough to pay over the odds for so little. Lousy rules, bad typos, power creep units, over done rules for new stuff which forces people to buy new stuff, rules that invalidate models wtc

Wait a second. You guys are getting all bent out of shape because GW is selling a product you don't need to buy, aren't being forced to buy, and can get the same stuff in softcover for less?



I swear to God, people will act like GW peed in their Cheerios over any little thing.

I'm saying why I don't like it, and I'm just giving an explanation of why I won't be buying it.
Nothing to get upset over.

 d-usa wrote:
My issue in a nutshell:

Big Hardcover Book:
452 pages
11 inches x 8 inches
$74.25 per book
$0.16 per page
$0.002 per square inch

Small Hardcover Book:
168 pages
8 inches x 6 inches
$49.50 per book
$0.29 per page
$0.006 per square inch


For 66% of the price you get 37% the page count or 20% of the paper that you would get for the big book.
The price per page increased 81%. The price per square inch increased by 200%.

That's my problem with this "deal".

i can get a pint of milk from asda for 50p. Or i can get four pints of milk for a pound. That's the real world mate, if you don't want the book, don t buy it. Personally i think it's about £5 too expensive and i'd rather buy a softback off ebay, but i can see the appeal.

xruslanx wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
My issue in a nutshell:

Spoiler:

Big Hardcover Book:
452 pages
11 inches x 8 inches
$74.25 per book
$0.16 per page
$0.002 per square inch

Small Hardcover Book:
168 pages
8 inches x 6 inches
$49.50 per book
$0.29 per page
$0.006 per square inch


For 66% of the price you get 37% the page count or 20% of the paper that you would get for the big book.
The price per page increased 81%. The price per square inch increased by 200%.

That's my problem with this "deal".

i can get a pint of milk from asda for 50p. Or i can get four pints of milk for a pound. That's the real world mate, if you don't want the book, don t buy it. Personally i think it's about £5 too expensive and i'd rather buy a softback off ebay, but i can see the appeal.

And the big price difference between a pint of milk and four pints of milk is the packaging, which has a higher impact on the price than the milk itself. Which is also one of the things that I acknowledged, that a hardcover is automatically going to cost more than a softcover and that a thinner hardcover is going to have a higher per-page cost than a thicker hardcover since you have a more difficult time to dilute the cost of the binding itself.

Guys, I get it. I'm very sorry that I actually tried to explain my opinion and tried to be objective with it. In the future I will simply post "rabble rabble, it's GW and expensive, rabble rabble" without any actual thoughts or content attached to it. Deal?

Edited by AgeOfEgos

You never did explain, if gw can sell a+b+c for 150 pound seperately while making, let's say 40% profit (that's 60 pound), how can they sell them all collectively for 50 pound while still making a profit? Since you apparently don't beleive in services, you may not refer to them in your answer.

I don't even know what you are trying to say there...

 d-usa wrote:
I don't even know what you are trying to say there...

I think he's drunk and responding to my post, but didn't quote.

 azreal13 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I don't even know what you are trying to say there...

I think he's drunk and responding to my post, but didn't quote.

I'm not sure it makes sense as a response to either of our posts

xruslanx wrote:
Edited

You never did explain, if gw can sell a+b+c for 150 pound seperately while making, let's say 40% profit (that's 60 pound), how can they sell them all collectively for 50 pound while still making a profit? Since you apparently don't beleive in services, you may not refer to them in your answer.

You're getting ripped off when you by them separately!

Apart from you can't buy them separately of course.

You have no understanding of how a business' cost structure works, the cost of running the shops is not a factor in the cost to produce an item, logistics costs, staffing, rent and utilities for the retail arm won't be included in what GW deems the production costs of an item, any ore than it would factor in Dark Sphere's running costs when it decides how much to sell it's product to them for.

Oh, and did you just accuse me of being a nerd on a wargames Internet forum you are an active member of?

EDIT
I'll address the a+b+c thing for gaks and giggles.

They make ~70% retail (I think) when they sell direct, which once non-production costs (rent,rates,wages etc) are deducted, leaves them ~17% as pure profit, when they sell to other retailers, they sell at ~40% but that has no further costs attached, so is pure profit.

xruslanx wrote:
Edited

You never did explain, if gw can sell a+b+c for 150 pound seperately while making, let's say 40% profit (that's 60 pound), how can they sell them all collectively for 50 pound while still making a profit? Since you apparently don't beleive in services, you may not refer to them in your answer.

The difference between net and gross is some pretty basic gak. If you're going to make an attempt at discourse, at least attempt to do it intelligently. That's really all we ask.

General warning for the thread;

While posting pictures within a thread is certainly permissible, please limit the amount of 4Chan/gif stylized responses with little to no content.

Also, if you feel someone has stepped over the line with a response---best to hit the "Alert Mod" button over quoting/responding. Thanks.

Ryan

for future reference, three posters ganging up on one and slapping each other on the back over how much of a dumbass the one is, is a surefire way of making sure that the discussion will die on its feet and people will simply start flaming.

You have flat out ignored my question - how can the cost of a combination of products be lower than the combined profit from selling those products seperately, while still making a profit?

It's clear that anyone who isn't a part of your little clique isn't accepted here though so i don't expect anything resembling a rational or coherant reply. Peace bro.

Sorry mate, there's no clique.

As a matter of fact, cincydooley and I are frequently the ones falling out.

Your manner generated those responses independently from the different users, I'd listen to the message that should be sending.

I have tried to explain, you either aren't willing to listen or unable to understand.

One more time.

The stuff is massively overpriced in the first place. Therefore sticking it all in a box and charging less for it just means they are making less profit, not making a loss.

The intrinsic value (the actual worth) of a plastic sprue is tiny, literally pennies. Now, you quite rightly have to factor in the cost of designing that sprue, as well as making the mold.

Those costs will never change though, so if it costs £5000 to get to the point where you have made a sprue, it will only cost £5000.10p to make two, and so on. Once you have made thousands of sprues, the cost of designing and making the sprue becomes almost as small as the cost of the plastic, as that original £5000 cost has now been shared out over many thousands of sprues.

All the DV box is, is some sprues, that, if we are generous, cost £2 each to make, a book at £5 (maybe) and a few other bits and pieces, put in a box, which again would cost very little for each one.

What seems to have you confused is that you seem to think GW are charging you a price based in what their products cost to make. They are not, they are charging you what they think you will pay, which is many, many times more than the price that would clear them a profit.

Part of the reason they have to charge so much is because of their stores, which are a massive drain on their finances, and many critics believe they would be better off getting rid, and just producing product and supporting independent stores.

They are unwilling/unable to do that, so continue to have to pay all the costs associated with running a chain of stores.

These are costs that, from an accounting view point, have absolutely nothing to do with how much it costs them to make stuff, and therefore shouldn't be considered a manufacturing cost that contributes directly to how much it costs them to get product onto the shelf. They are costs though, and have everything to do with how much money they ultimately make.

*edit*

 azreal13 wrote:

All the DV box is, is some sprues, that, if we are generous, cost £2 each to make, a book at £5 (maybe) and a few other bits and pieces, put in a box, which again would cost very little for each one.

If this was true, there should be companies selling equivalent products for fraction of the cost GW does: there are not, so you are wrong.

Even in the model kit industry, which is much more competive, where the moulds can be decades old and any design costs have been sunk years ago, nobody sells big plastic kits for the prices you describe. So, you are wrong.

Backfire wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

All the DV box is, is some sprues, that, if we are generous, cost £2 each to make, a book at £5 (maybe) and a few other bits and pieces, put in a box, which again would cost very little for each one.

If this was true, there should be companies selling equivalent products for fraction of the cost GW does: there are not, so you are wrong.

Even in the model kit industry, which is much more competive, where the moulds can be decades old and any design costs have been sunk years ago, nobody sells big plastic kits for the prices you describe. So, you are wrong.

Yeah, except that there is a thing called price leadership, where in a market with a few or one dominant player, those companies set the prices and other companies follow suit.

Which is exactly what is happening in the wargaming market. Privateer Press charge what they do, in part, because they see what GW get away with, so why should they charge less?

So you are wrong.

Sorry.

EDIT

You would also have to factor in that nearly all the competitors in the wargames market, with the arguable exception of PP, are much smaller than GW, and do not benefit from economies of scale anywhere near as much. Therefore, their costs are legitimately higher, and would force a higher selling price as a result. In addition, I believe GW are the only company in this sector to own their own production, so don't have another company making a living by making their product, again reducing costs.

GW charge amongst the highest prices, and should, barring massive incompetence, have the lowest costs per unit by a mile.

Backfire wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

All the DV box is, is some sprues, that, if we are generous, cost £2 each to make, a book at £5 (maybe) and a few other bits and pieces, put in a box, which again would cost very little for each one.

If this was true, there should be companies selling equivalent products for fraction of the cost GW does: there are not, so you are wrong.

Even in the model kit industry, which is much more competive, where the moulds can be decades old and any design costs have been sunk years ago, nobody sells big plastic kits for the prices you describe. So, you are wrong.

Like Az said, the prices of what the market will bear are dictated by the market leader. It's the reason Nike sells their "premium" shoes (Jordan's, LeBrons) for like $200 when they cost about $10 to make. And as such, that's why Adidas can sell their "collectors" lines for similar cost.

Just because they dont doesn't mean they cant.

If you need a further example, I give you the UK cellphone market (my home turf, so to speak) before 2003.

£30 bought you 200 mins a month on a contract handset, if you were lucky, you could get 50 SMS messages included.

In 2003, the 3 network launched, turning a 4 way battle into a 5 way.

They immediately launched a £30 bundle which offered 500 minutes and 100 texts, alongside Internet usage, which at the time nobody cared about.

Within 2 months, all the incumbents had moved to match or rival the new packages.

This triggered a decade of nip and tuck, where nowadays, the same monthly investment can get you literally unlimited voice and SMS usage, as well as vast amounts of data.

Do you think the 4 existing networks would have made those initial moves if a competitor hasn't forced them to?

Personally, I doubt it, as the status quo had existed for several years beforehand with no significant change.

Sadly, the Wargame market isn't big enough to attract a company with sufficient financial clout to illicit that sort of change, but if it did, I guarantee you would see a change in GW's approach practically overnight.

Yeah, no one can even touch GW enough to make a difference. I think that new FFG financial info shows that. They did $3MM in miniatures sales, and we all know Star Wars is hella popular.