Any recreational shooters???

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**Frazzled**

Spartak wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:
KingCracker wrote:
Add me to the pile of "why a .40?" My oldest brother carries a .40 for 2 years now and hates it. Its a VERY snappy round, he is changing up to a 9mm as soon as he can afford it. I wouldnt just toss his opinion into the trash either, hes a retired Marine, that was station in 4 different American Embassies around the world and was consulted to protect President Bush when he went to France.,...twice. He knows his gak when it comes to killing people

Also somewhere on Youtube is an ER doctor that explains what exactly the difference is between the different calibers and being shot by them. Basically, unless you hit something vital in the first go, IE the heart or head for example, you can just plug away on a baddie and they can continue on for a surprisingly long time

Was it this video?

WARNING: VIDEO HAS GRAPHIC PICTURES.

Spoiler:

That is an excellent video, The doctor (anesthesiologist to be specific) was comparing handgun rounds to rifle rounds. Short story is shoot someone with a handgun they run away, shoot them with a rifle they die.

What if you shoot them with a handgun and then beat them with a wiffle bat?

**KalashnikovMarine**

I have never had a problem with controlling or performing quick follow up shots with a .40S&W personally, great little round, I really miss my M&PC in 40S&W but it was liquidated to take advantage of the insane prices on guns earlier in the year. It was a seller's market and I made a significant profit.

**MrMoustaffa**

Spartak wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:
KingCracker wrote:
Add me to the pile of "why a .40?" My oldest brother carries a .40 for 2 years now and hates it. Its a VERY snappy round, he is changing up to a 9mm as soon as he can afford it. I wouldnt just toss his opinion into the trash either, hes a retired Marine, that was station in 4 different American Embassies around the world and was consulted to protect President Bush when he went to France.,...twice. He knows his gak when it comes to killing people

Also somewhere on Youtube is an ER doctor that explains what exactly the difference is between the different calibers and being shot by them. Basically, unless you hit something vital in the first go, IE the heart or head for example, you can just plug away on a baddie and they can continue on for a surprisingly long time

Was it this video?

WARNING: VIDEO HAS GRAPHIC PICTURES.

Spoiler:

That is an excellent video, The doctor (anesthesiologist to be specific) was comparing handgun rounds to rifle rounds. Short story is shoot someone with a handgun they run away, shoot them with a rifle they die.

Yeah I learned a lot from it. It was a big influence when I chose the gun that would be my carry piece. Really showed just how important shot placement is over caliber choice, at least when it comes to pistols. Its also incredible just how much damage a rifle round can do.

**easysauce**

pfffft....

a .45 will put em down, its just those measly lesser pistol cartridges that have that issue

only partially tounge in cheek, as I know riles will definetly outclass the pistol rounds,

but I have heard lots of stories from the war on how awesome the .45 was at putting people down, even when compared to the m1 carbine's, while the lugers needed A zone shot pacement to do the job right.

**Seaward**

easysauce wrote:
pfffft....

a .45 will put em down, its just those measly lesser pistol cartridges that have that issue

only partially tounge in cheek, as I know riles will definetly outclass the pistol rounds,

but I have heard lots of stories from the war on how awesome the .45 was at putting people down, even when compared to the m1 carbine's, while the lugers needed A zone shot pacement to do the job right.

War stories are always going to involve ball ammunition. Any handgun round in ball sucks. If I were limited to ball, however, I'd want a .45 as well, simply because it's marginally bigger.

When you start talking civilian ownership, however, you can start talking about hollowpoints, and the field gets leveled. I've taken classes run by Larry Vickers (20+ year Delta veteran), Kyle DeFoor (former SEAL), Travis Haley (former FORECON guy, and the sniper in the infamous Najaf Blackwater sniper video), and Jason Falla (former Aussie SAS type). All run 9mm guns as civilians. In fact, I'm pretty sure they all run Glock 19s, though Haley also did some shilling for the M&P for a while when he was working with Chris Costa.

The bottom line is, with any caliber of handgun, you need to hit the central nervous system if you want to incapacitate your target. All the "man stopper round" stuff is a myth. People will fall down from non-CNS .22 shots just as often as they will from non-CNS .45 shots, and it's largely due to a psychological "I've been shot, I should fall down," reaction than any physiological necessity. Handgun rounds are weak and slow. You will probably need to shoot more than once, if you ever need to shoot, so relying on the bullet to do more than it's capable of is always going to be a losing bet.

That said? Shoot whatever you're comfortable with, in whichever way you're comfortable with it. If .40S&W makes you more confident than 9mm, and you don't shoot it worse than 9mm, go nuts. I can shoot .40 well, but not as well as 9mm, so I go with 9mm.

**easysauce**

while I agree with 99% of the above, those guys likely have used 9mm for a long time in their careers, so are used to it.

Id say whatever works best for you works best for you, and shot placement matters far more then caliber, and that while the .45 may be more powerful/damaging per shot, you get more shots with a 9mm, so situationally you would want one over the other.

that being said,

given EQUAL shot placement, the hole from a .45 will cause more damage then that of a 9mm, and is more likely to damage CNS at all, or will cause more substantial damage to the CNS, making it more likely to cause phsycal incapacitaion simply due to the larger wound cavity affecting more of the body.

It will go farther through most barriers like sand/windsheilds ect as well.

ahhh yess, the 9mm vs .45 debate rages on!

if I could carry more then 10 rnds in a 9mm (canadian law caps it at 10) I likely would consider it, but .45 is just such an easier round to shoot (for me at least, much less snappy, much less recoil then the 9mm too) plus shot ammo in it is actually really decent for fowling.... if they ever re-legalize handgun hunting here anyways.

**Frazzled**

However given equal shot polacement, you can hit them with more 9mms then .45 acps...

**djones520**

easysauce wrote:
while I agree with 99% of the above, those guys likely have used 9mm for a long time in their careers, so are used to it.

Id say whatever works best for you works best for you, and shot placement matters far more then caliber, and that while the .45 may be more powerful/damaging per shot, you get more shots with a 9mm, so situationally you would want one over the other.

that being said,

given EQUAL shot placement, the hole from a .45 will cause more damage then that of a 9mm, and is more likely to damage CNS at all, or will cause more substantial damage to the CNS, making it more likely to cause phsycal incapacitaion simply due to the larger wound cavity affecting more of the body.

It will go farther through most barriers like sand/windsheilds ect as well.

ahhh yess, the 9mm vs .45 debate rages on!

if I could carry more then 10 rnds in a 9mm (canadian law caps it at 10) I likely would consider it, but .45 is just such an easier round to shoot (for me at least, much less snappy, much less recoil then the 9mm too) plus shot ammo in it is actually really decent for fowling.... if they ever re-legalize handgun hunting here anyways.

You should try to move to Michigan. It's like Canada, just without all the silly rules!

**KingCracker**

As a person from Michigan, I say go for it

just vote republican and you'll do fine

**KalashnikovMarine**

That's why I carry a 1911 in .45 in the end. That sweet piece of steel and hatred for the enemies of the United States of America is basically an extension of my hand at this point. The balance, recoil sights, and trigger right out of the box were perfect. I'm still going to do some tuning here and there, add a match grade barrel, that kinda thing, but when it comes to putting violence on bad guys in defense of myself and others a Winchester Ranger .45 ACP hollow point delivered via a 100+ year handgun design is the way I damn well do it. Maybe combat tupperware works for some people. That's fine. Glad it works for them, my 1911 works for me.

**Ensis Ferrae**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
That's why I carry a 1911 in .45 in the end. That sweet piece of steel and hatred for the enemies of the United States of America is basically an extension of my hand at this point. The balance, recoil sights, and trigger right out of the box were perfect. I'm still going to do some tuning here and there, add a match grade barrel, that kinda thing, but when it comes to putting violence on bad guys in defense of myself and others a Winchester Ranger .45 ACP hollow point delivered via a 100+ year handgun design is the way I damn well do it. Maybe combat tupperware works for some people. That's fine. Glad it works for them, my 1911 works for me.

Agreed....

I also dip all my rounds in the blood of pigs, just to further ensure the execution of the Bad Guys' souls

**KalashnikovMarine**

I've taken to carving sacred litanies in the shell casings of my rounds. Ave Imperator!

**easysauce**

djones520 wrote:
easysauce wrote:
while I agree with 99% of the above, those guys likely have used 9mm for a long time in their careers, so are used to it.

Id say whatever works best for you works best for you, and shot placement matters far more then caliber, and that while the .45 may be more powerful/damaging per shot, you get more shots with a 9mm, so situationally you would want one over the other.

that being said,

given EQUAL shot placement, the hole from a .45 will cause more damage then that of a 9mm, and is more likely to damage CNS at all, or will cause more substantial damage to the CNS, making it more likely to cause phsycal incapacitaion simply due to the larger wound cavity affecting more of the body.

It will go farther through most barriers like sand/windsheilds ect as well.

ahhh yess, the 9mm vs .45 debate rages on!

if I could carry more then 10 rnds in a 9mm (canadian law caps it at 10) I likely would consider it, but .45 is just such an easier round to shoot (for me at least, much less snappy, much less recoil then the 9mm too) plus shot ammo in it is actually really decent for fowling.... if they ever re-legalize handgun hunting here anyways.

You should try to move to Michigan. It's like Canada, just without all the silly rules!

lol, I cant bring all my norinco stuff across the border, sorry

**Frazzled**

Why?

**KingCracker**

Wouldnt that technically make him an arms smuggler?

**djones520**

Norinco isn't allowed to import into the US. Doesn't mean you can't transport into the US. Shouldn't at least.

**Frazzled**

Just walk across the border. Everyone else does.

**KingCracker**

Specially from Canada, we don't care if they are aliens from the north

**Frazzled**

fraankly we don't really care any more at all.

**Dreadclaw69**

Frazzled wrote:
Just walk across the border. Everyone else does.

Or say you're in a Cartel, then sit back and wait for the DoJ supply drop

**easysauce**

Frazzled wrote:
Why?

i forget exactly, but its either the ATF or some other agency that has banned all the chi com stuff from import, I knwo you used to be able to buy norinco stuff in the USA< but now it is illegal to import it.

**Frazzled**

Interesting. in America, all red blooded Ameruirkan patriots buy M4 clones, or alternatively AK-47s....

**djones520**

easysauce wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Why?

i forget exactly, but its either the ATF or some other agency that has banned all the chi com stuff from import, I knwo you used to be able to buy norinco stuff in the USA< but now it is illegal to import it.

Import it for distribution, yes. But you own it already. I wasn't being serious about saying you should immigrate to the US, but if you were considering it, that is something I'd check on, cause it doesn't make sense to me to penalyze a private citizen, when the law was put in to hurt the company.

**easysauce**

djones520 wrote:
easysauce wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Why?

i forget exactly, but its either the ATF or some other agency that has banned all the chi com stuff from import, I knwo you used to be able to buy norinco stuff in the USA< but now it is illegal to import it.

Import it for distribution, yes. But you own it already. I wasn't being serious about saying you should immigrate to the US, but if you were considering it, that is something I'd check on, cause it doesn't make sense to me to penalyze a private citizen, when the law was put in to hurt the company.

I was interested in doing some on the US's 3 gun competitions, IIRC, Im not allowed to bring in any of my norc stuff, not only cause its norinco, but its also 14.5".. so SBR + non US citizen = really hard to do apparently.

I think that technically there is some route that involves a ton of paper work and a bunch of fees, but everyone I know from here who goes to the us competitions tells me its a million times easier/cheaper to just grab a 16"+ rifle, non norinco, and go from there.

**d-usa**

Didn't really want to start a new thread for this, but I think it could fit here:

http://money.cnn.com/2013/09/12/news/companies/slide-fire-gun/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

NEW YORK (CNNMoney)

Machine guns are illegal in the U.S. for most people, but one small company has found a way around that.
Slide Fire, based in Moran, Texas, plans to sell a semiautomatic rifle that mimics the rapid fire of a machine gun and is also fed bullets from a belt, which provides a huge capacity for ammunition -- potentially thousands of rounds.
Brandon Renner, sales and marketing manager for Slide Fire, says the belt-fed rifle, called the SFS BFR, will be available this fall and sell for $6,000.
"It sprays like a fire hose," said Renner. "We recommend no more than 30 rounds on the belt, but one person could make it as big as they want."
Can that be legal?
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives says yes, since it's still technically a semiautomatic.
Related: Smith & Wesson shares dip as gun 'frenzy' wanes
The key is that of the pieces that make up a gun, the ATF regulates only the "receiver." It's the only piece that has a serial number and the only one that requires a background check to purchase. Slide Fire modifies the trigger and the stock -- the butt of the gun that sits against the shooter's shoulder.
Slide Fire's technology uses the recoil of the rifle shot to "bump" the gun, speeding up the rate of fire without changing the gun's classification as a semiautomatic, which requires that only one round is fired each time the trigger is pulled.
In a 2010 letter posted on Slide Fire's website, the ATF wrote: "We find that the 'bump-stock' is a firearm part and is not regulated as firearm under the Gun Control Act or the National Firearms act."
"I can confirm that ATF did approve the device referenced in the letter and that the Slide Fire is legal," said ATF spokesman Christopher Amon.
Slide Fire already sells bump-stocks for $370 that speed up the rate of fire for semiautomatics. The company also sells semiautomatic rifles that have already been accessorized for bump-fire, costing between $1,150 to $1,950. But these guns use magazines, not belts, and thus have limited ammo capacity.
Related: $27,500 rifle hits targets at 1,000 targets
A spokeswoman for Wal-Mart (WMT, Fortune 500), one of the largest gun sellers in America, said the company does not sell Slide Fire products, and will not be offering the belt-fed rifle.
Another major dealer, Cabela's (CAB), did not return messages from CNNMoney about Slide Fire. But the company's website listed Slide Fire products for sale.
James Hill, owner of the Abilene Indoor Gun Range, located about 50 miles away from Slide Fire's headquarters, said he sells the company's bump-fire accessories and they're quite popular with his customers.
Related: Missouri bill would OK machine guns for residents
But Hill, who referred to the Slide Fire products as "a poor man's machine gun," doesn't plan to sell the belt-fed gun, because he doesn't believe there will be much of a demand for it.
He said the Slide Fire rifle is a bit more challenging to fire than a fully automatic weapon, but the "learning curve" can be corrected with a bit of practice.
"It's not as easy [as full auto], but it's fairly idiot proof," he said. To top of page

First Published: September 12, 2013: 6:28 AM ET

Interesting story, what do you guys think?

**djones520**

Sounds interesting, expensive, and something that'll probably soon be regulated.

**easysauce**

you can bump fire without those "slide fire" stocks, thumb+ belt loop= simulated full auto

slide fire stocks are already banned in canada, and we have not had the ability to purchase full autos for about 20 years give or take (not that there has EVER been a single crime commited in canada with a legal full auto, they were all registered since the early 1900's as well.)

not surprisingly, all the gangbangers still use their illegal black market tech nines and so on, apparently they didnt get the memo that they are not allowed to have such things....

**Dreadclaw69**

djones520 wrote:
Sounds interesting, expensive, and something that'll probably soon be regulated.

Isn't that like the bump stocks that have been available for years?

**KalashnikovMarine**

I'll pass on them, it sounds like a fun way to get to simulate a real giggle switch, but it doesn't really sound fun or useful.

**Jihadin**

Not something I'm familiar with nor "comfy" firing. I think the first incident with the weapon going to involve someone "cooking" a round off in the chamber with alcohol involved.