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Looky Likey wrote:

 scrunty wrote:
I was under the impression that you only took 1 grav-cannon + 1 grav-amp per centurion, meaning there will only be 3 grav-cannons per box.....could be wrong though

There are indeed three grav cannons and three grav amps in the box.

Cheers for that. Was about to have a serious head scratching moment thinking "Another way for GW to get money out of us? Surely not."

Thanks for clearing that up.

I will also point out that the sergeant upgrade I feel is pretty impressive.

Night fight and split fire will(IMO) give them a lot more tactical versatility.

In addition upgrades are on a per model basis, so for example I could give the sergeant TL lascannon and missile launcher, while the other two have grav amps. Maximize the effects of any buffs and allows him to take advantage of tank hunter(If you are an imperial fist)

This will allow me to try and take on two enemies at once, especially factoring in the shorter range of the grav guns, I see something like this being helpful. Since for a majority of targets more than two grav cannons will probably be overkill.

10 shots
6.6 hits
Against armor 3+ most likely 5ish wounds
Against 2+ probably 6 wounds

That is before factoring in things like the missile launcher. If you prescience the squad that makes it even more of a certainty.

I'm still trying to determine if even upgrading the Centurians with Grav or Lascannons is even worth it. Initially, it appears I can get both of those weapons on less costly platforms. Ultimately, a unit of 3 models pushing 300 points seems awfully expensive. I'm debating if just using the stock Centurian has any value.

I think they could make a good all rounder deathstar unit for middle board control.

Though it may be expensive, a 5 men Dev Cents all with Grav Cannon backed up by a Divination psyker (Tigurius for instance) could get ignore cover, or 4++ and, of course, TL.

Prescience + Grav Amp make them ok against flyers (even AV 12 as AV doesn't matter), and they are already good against ground targets (either because of the Grav special rule or the VoF).

Downsides have already been exposed : not very mobile unit, 24'' range, and very costy (90pts per model vith ML and Grav, for a total of 615 pts with the Tigurius upgrade)

I think I may try this... I just have to figure out what units I have to use to support them

With grav cannons they will murder anything they get near, bar light infantry.

So to me the question is: How do I get my cent devs close to the action, and how do I avoid the opponent focus his entire arsenal of AT weapons on them?

Waaargh wrote:
With grav cannons they will murder anything they get near, bar light infantry.

So to me the question is: How do I get my cent devs close to the action, and how do I avoid the opponent focus his entire arsenal of AT weapons on them?

Run something he has to target more ie a vindicator or 2?


On a side note I haven't looked at the new codex yet but what do they come standard equipped with?

I would run the 6 of them with Grav Cannon's and Hurricane Bolters. That is 30 Grav shots and 18/36 Bolter Shots. I think that will kill hard and soft targets. Then you add a tankie IC and treat the unit like old Nob Bikers, using the 2+ Look Out Sir to move wounds around the unit. Is their anything in the rules that would prevent the player from taking all of the Devs down to 1w each before letting them die?

Waaargh wrote:
With grav cannons they will murder anything they get near, bar light infantry.

So to me the question is: How do I get my cent devs close to the action, and how do I avoid the opponent focus his entire arsenal of AT weapons on them?

I think grav cents are the worst build. 24" range and SnP means you cannot ever run or over watch. Max move 6" per turn if you're not crossing terrain which you need since they don't have an invuln.

They'll barely scratch flesh hounds, seekers, or a screamer star before they get bogged down and chewed up. Wraithknights can bounce around them all day with ID shots. When you get close to a serpent they can move up 6" dump wraithguard out 6" and shoot 12" with ID cannons. You'll never get in range of an IA riptide, fire warriors can back up and fire every turn with better range. They won't hurt kroot. They won't hurt cultists zombies or spawn.

They have too many drawbacks for TAC lists. Leave gravs for the bikes. Take cents with lascannons missile launchers and tank hunters and they will pop a vehicle every turn from a safe distance.

My impression of this unit is that it's just straight-up terrible. For the cost, there are other options which do the same either for a lower cost or which is more resilient. One thing which can be said for sure is that you will want to get the Omniscope upgrade so that you don't have almost 300 pts of shooting unable to contribute for a turn and because they are overkill against most targets so you want the Split Fire.

3 Centurions with Omniscope (200)

Some people have been saying that the way to run them is with a lascannon and missile launcher. This gives you a S&P AT unit with good resilience.

1 Centurion with Lascannon and Missile Launcher (90)

Predator with Lascannon Sponsons (115)

Both are good against vehicles. The Centurion has 1 S8 and 1 TL S9 shot versus the Predator's 2 S7 and 2 S9 shots. The Predator brings about twice the firepower for another 25pts (28%). As to which is more resilient, it's the model which doesn't fear a Guardsman squad. I think the Centurion loses out here. If you want to run an AT Centurion, then you'd probably want to make it the sergeant with Omniscope so that the unit doesn't overkill vehicles. As others have noted, a completely kitted AT unit is 290 pts.

Naked, they're about the same cost as a Razorback but get a little more firepower. The problem with kitting these guys for AI however is that it's short-ranged and slow when compared to vehicles and most armies are bringing plasma with them. I don't know how good the grav weapons really are, but I can tell you that the Centurions won't last long against plasma so it won't matter. The point that they can take LR dedicated transport is only useful if you're tight on HS options, and if you actually mount them that way them then you have to disembark on the first turn or lost a round of shooting with an almost 300 pt unit. You're looking at over 500 pts for Centurions and a Land Raider, so it's a pretty big investment to not be shooting for a turn.

So I'm not sure what the solution is here. Perhaps you could take a sergeant with Omniscope, Missile Launcher and TL Lascannon then kit the other two for AI with either heavy bolters or grav cannons. If you are against IG, then you could try to shoot the grav cannons at vehicles or something and I think an option like that will exist against most armies. I just think the entire unit is terribly subpar and the points are better spent elsewhere because this unit doesn't seem really standout at any one thing.

EDIT: BronzeJon caught me with the wrong price for the AT Centurion.

Except for medium range, nothing has as much destructive power as the grav cannon cent devs. Three cents fire off 15 shots, and they get to re-roll wounds or failed 6's to damage vehicles. Look at how a TL LC and ML model will handle heavy armour in comparison, and as shown above a pred will do a better job of killing tanks (as will drop podding melta units).

 Jrandom wrote:
I would run the 6 of them with Grav Cannon's and Hurricane Bolters. That is 30 Grav shots and 18/36 Bolter Shots. I think that will kill hard and soft targets. Then you add a tankie IC and treat the unit like old Nob Bikers, using the 2+ Look Out Sir to move wounds around the unit. Is their anything in the rules that would prevent the player from taking all of the Devs down to 1w each before letting them die?

Sounds like a plan of a sort.

There is nothing in the rules that prevent you doing exactly that, except placement. LoS hits go to the nearest model to the dodging character.

Where are you getting 120 for one dev cent?

 hyv3mynd wrote:
I think grav cents are the worst build. 24" range and SnP means you cannot ever run or over watch. Max move 6" per turn if you're not crossing terrain which you need since they don't have an invuln.

They'll barely scratch flesh hounds, seekers, or a screamer star before they get bogged down and chewed up. Wraithknights can bounce around them all day with ID shots. When you get close to a serpent they can move up 6" dump wraithguard out 6" and shoot 12" with ID cannons. You'll never get in range of an IA riptide, fire warriors can back up and fire every turn with better range. They won't hurt kroot. They won't hurt cultists zombies or spawn.

They have too many drawbacks for TAC lists. Leave gravs for the bikes. Take cents with lascannons missile launchers and tank hunters and they will pop a vehicle every turn from a safe distance.

Grav weapons are obviously not meant to be deployed against light targets, the same way melta weapons are not meant so be used against hordes or flamers meant to be used against AV. In an TAC tournament list you should be prepared for those kind of targets with a different solution. What grav gives you is short range anti-MC tech, which handily can also be used against heavy infantry and vehicles.

I think the ML/LC is the way to go. It provides some good cover fire for your army.

I view it as taking a squad of 3 dreads with TL LC/MLs, but instead of costing 130+ points each, they are appropriately costed.

Are they "OMFG ZAWSOME"? No. They are decent, and can provide a nice compliment to the right army.

To use the gravs, you are gonna need a land raider I think. These guys are going to get the death company treatment by competent foes. And that treatment is being shot off the table.

The 48" guns gives them the best shot, but Eldar can trivially get all kinds of 36" guns within range quickly. And these guys make your force that much smaller. Properly equipped, they are a staggering 46.6 pts per wound. No invuln save.

I don't know if Eldar have a way to get ignores cover on a Wraithknight, but these things are begging to be zorfed by heavy d cannons.

Also if you do the math for two squads of devastators with 3 lascannons and 3 missile launchers they are around 205 points. Add in the fact that they are not twin-linked lascannons on a turkey vulnerable platform and the dev cents are not looking as bad

Sure it is 6 wounds instead of 10 but it takes up one slot (more room for yummy TFC)

My one problem with them is this: A single Vindicator shot (Or Equivalent) can wipe out an entire squad of these brutes with ease. At 60-100 points per model, they have a certain Achilles heel for S10 AP2. Admittedly, most things are vulnerable to S10 AP2 weapons, but Centurions especially due to their lack of invuln and difficulty with Transports. Cover helps, but that's a 4+ or 5+ usually, not 2+. The 'Hard Counter,' therefore, seems to be not too hard to find in most armies. (TWC with Thunder Hammers, Biker Boss with Power Klaw (Attached to Biker Nobz, of course,) Flyrants/Daemon Princes (Smash Attacks,) the aforementioned Vindicator, Orbital Bombardment, Doom Scythes especially, etc...)

I realize you won't encounter these things every game, they just seem like easy ways to kill your opponents 200-600 point Death Star.

 Leth wrote:
Also if you do the math for two squads of devastators with 3 lascannons and 3 missile launchers they are around 205 points. Add in the fact that they are not twin-linked lascannons on a turkey vulnerable platform and the dev cents are not looking as bad

Sure it is 6 wounds instead of 10 but it takes up one slot (more room for yummy TFC)

I agree, but the whole thing just seems really weak compared to Eldar S6/7 spam.

Waaargh wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
I think grav cents are the worst build. 24" range and SnP means you cannot ever run or over watch. Max move 6" per turn if you're not crossing terrain which you need since they don't have an invuln.

They'll barely scratch flesh hounds, seekers, or a screamer star before they get bogged down and chewed up. Wraithknights can bounce around them all day with ID shots. When you get close to a serpent they can move up 6" dump wraithguard out 6" and shoot 12" with ID cannons. You'll never get in range of an IA riptide, fire warriors can back up and fire every turn with better range. They won't hurt kroot. They won't hurt cultists zombies or spawn.

They have too many drawbacks for TAC lists. Leave gravs for the bikes. Take cents with lascannons missile launchers and tank hunters and they will pop a vehicle every turn from a safe distance.

Grav weapons are obviously not meant to be deployed against light targets, the same way melta weapons are not meant so be used against hordes or flamers meant to be used against AV. In an TAC tournament list you should be prepared for those kind of targets with a different solution. What grav gives you is short range anti-MC tech, which handily can also be used against heavy infantry and vehicles.

Sure, you are certainly right in your analogy. That is why the correct special weapons need to be given to the correct squads, who can utilize them efficiently. For example drop pod or bike squad flamers are good as they get to dictate the range more efficiently on their short range weapon, whilst not being too expensive for what may well be a suicide mission.

Grav centurions have an average range, a terrible movespeed and no invulnerable save. The only way to get them in range is to walk them up the table (easy points to the enemy) or let them ride in a landraider (and spend around 1/4 - 1/2 of your army on 1 squad). I suppose you could give them a screen of tac marines to give them a 5+ cover save, but remember that it would grant the enemy a cover save if the centurions want to shoot back. Grav cannons can do terrible terrible damage, but you must make the enemy come to you, and most of the time this will not happen until the centurions have been taken out.

Grav guns are better on bikes, they have relentless and turbo boost so can get to where they need or shoot the salvo weapons effectively. And you can get 2 grav gun bikers for 1 centurion.

For 165 pts you can ally in a DA stock Libby with PFG and a 5-man sniper scout squad with cloaks.

You now have a 4++ save for your Centurion squad and they are now Fearless, get to twin-link their guns and get PE CSM as a bonus.

I'm sticking them behind an ADL with quad-gun and IF CT with 3 TLLCs, MLs and omniscope; they'll be my long range anti-tank/anti-air support. As mentioned above add the now even-more-awesome TFC for anti-horde and you got some well-rounded long-range firepower.

 Leth wrote:
Also if you do the math for two squads of devastators with 3 lascannons and 3 missile launchers they are around 205 points.

Well the missile devs can shoot at infantry without wasting AT shots and a Predator is better than lascannon devs or missile/las cent devs, at least against non-air targets. Taking an ADL with quad-gun is still a highly viable option for AA. The weakness of the cent devs is that each model can't split their AI/AT fire and the squad risks overkill so I'm leaning towards Predators, Vindicators, TFCs and Stormravens right now.

Why bring missile devs anyway?

Oh, yeah, that's right. The cent dev upgrade thingie only let's the squad split fire by MODEL. Oh my lord, that's full of fail.

The way I see it, buying Lascannons usually wastes the other weapon option. Neither missile launchers nor hurricane bolters merge particularly well, though I suppose against some MCs they might work together.

So grav cannon/ML , then? Grav cannon/hurricane bolters? I am really not feeling it with this unit.

What a lot of people haven't twigged to is that Cents take up 3 spaces in a Land Raider, Tiggy takes up 1, and standard Land Raiders are a good unit in the current meta. The problem they have is no Frag Grenades and Low Capacity, which doesn't matter with the Cent/Libby Loadout. The Land Raider solves the mobility issue, as Cents can be standing 12" out from the Raider's starting position and fire 24", for 36" threat. It also solves them getting shot up before they can unload their firepower, as the other army has to go through a Land Raider first.

260 points for the Cents, Grav, Omniscope, 165 for Tiggy, 250+ for the Land Raider. It's 675 points for the module, but the key thing is all those points are efficiently spent points, that you can build an army around. You can actually divide the firepower up between 4 different units so should you wish to.

As for powers you obviously want the 4+ Invul and the ignores cover from Divination, with Primaris as the fallback. Not hard to hit most of that given Tiggy's rules.

675 for five models? I'm not sure that can ever be called "efficient".

Waaargh wrote:
With grav cannons they will murder anything they get near, bar light infantry.

So to me the question is: How do I get my cent devs close to the action, and how do I avoid the opponent focus his entire arsenal of AT weapons on them?

Use a Chapter Master on a bike with a stormshield as the lead model. If he can't take the hit, then start using LOS to move the wounds around.

Heh! Iron hands chapter master on bike w/Shield Eternal

Martel732 wrote:
675 for five models? I'm not sure that can ever be called "efficient".

What does number of models have to do with anything? Dumb comment.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
675 for five models? I'm not sure that can ever be called "efficient".

What does number of models have to do with anything? Dumb comment.

Yeah, because holding multiple objectives, instant death and having 1/3rd of your army tied up in cc by one unit means nothing right?

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
675 for five models? I'm not sure that can ever be called "efficient".

What does number of models have to do with anything? Dumb comment.

Yeah, because holding multiple objectives, instant death and having 1/3rd of your army tied up in cc by one unit means nothing right?

You're saying things, but they don't seem to have any relevancy to anything? Maybe try using less sarcasm and you might be able to put across some sort of valid point.