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That was my point. It's a lot of eggs in one basket. And everyone's proposal of putting Tigirius and some guy with the Capt America shield in it just makes it worse in that respect.

Their damage isn't so amazing that is worth all that. These cents are pratically worthless vs hordes the way everyone is talking about building them.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
675 for five models? I'm not sure that can ever be called "efficient".

What does number of models have to do with anything? Dumb comment.

Yeah, because holding multiple objectives, instant death and having 1/3rd of your army tied up in cc by one unit means nothing right?

You're saying things, but they don't seem to have any relevancy to anything? Maybe try using less sarcasm and you might be able to put across some sort of valid point.

I think his point is that a squad of Centurions and a Chapter Master is too expensive to work and that having a couple of troops squads to hold objectives would be more effective. He's just not saying it clearly.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
675 for five models? I'm not sure that can ever be called "efficient".

What does number of models have to do with anything? Dumb comment.

Yeah, because holding multiple objectives, instant death and having 1/3rd of your army tied up in cc by one unit means nothing right?

You're saying things, but they don't seem to have any relevancy to anything? Maybe try using less sarcasm and you might be able to put across some sort of valid point.

They don't have relevance if the person reading them does not understand what he is talking about, or English. But its ok, I will spell it out for you.

1) To hold multiple objectives or to fight effectively across the board, multiple units will beat a single over priced unit. If you are spending over 600 points on one non-scoring option, what else will there be in the army?

2) Your models are still susceptible to instant death from str 10 hits. The 4++ save will help, but losing some 80 points every time you fail your save is going to hurt. Cheaper units, especially ones that can make effective use of cover, are far more efficient, and durable, point for point, than your centurions. Your 24 range guns are especially asking for demolisher cannons.

3) You are talking like the centurion squad has the same threat level and capability as something like the farsight bomb, when in reality their effective role is much more niche. With grav cannons equipped please tell me what you will do about that horde of ork boyz or guardsmen blob. Grav cannons can be very efficient, but they can also fail miserably depending on the target. Investing so many points into a unit that can be quite easily countered would not be 'efficient'. You could use the landraider to get in range, but unlike battle suits there is no jump shoot jump for you, and once a cheap blob gets into contact with you, then you are going to have a bad time.

Did that make sense to you? I would reccomend changing your attitude, you come across as someone who has just bought some centurions, and is getting pretty butthurt over negative comments about them.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
675 for five models? I'm not sure that can ever be called "efficient".

What does number of models have to do with anything? Dumb comment.

Yeah, because holding multiple objectives, instant death and having 1/3rd of your army tied up in cc by one unit means nothing right?

You're saying things, but they don't seem to have any relevancy to anything? Maybe try using less sarcasm and you might be able to put across some sort of valid point.

They don't have relevance if the person reading them does not understand what he is talking about, or English. But its ok, I will spell it out for you.

1) To hold multiple objectives or to fight effectively across the board, multiple units will beat a single over priced unit. If you are spending over 600 points on one non-scoring option, what else will there be in the army?

2) Your models are still susceptible to instant death from str 10 hits. The 4++ save will help, but losing some 80 points every time you fail your save is going to hurt. Cheaper units, especially ones that can make effective use of cover, are far more efficient, and durable, point for point, than your centurions. Your 24 range guns are especially asking for demolisher cannons.

3) You are talking like the centurion squad has the same threat level and capability as something like the farsight bomb, when in reality their effective role is much more niche. With grav cannons equipped please tell me what you will do about that horde of ork boyz or guardsmen blob. Grav cannons can be very efficient, but they can also fail miserably depending on the target. Investing so many points into a unit that can be quite easily countered would not be 'efficient'. You could use the landraider to get in range, but unlike battle suits there is no jump shoot jump for you, and once a cheap blob gets into contact with you, then you are going to have a bad time.

Did that make sense to you? I would reccomend changing your attitude, you come across as someone who has just bought some centurions, and is getting pretty butthurt over negative comments about them.

So you can put actual points together, regardless of how valid they are, good to see. Try that first next time.

1) Centurions aren't objective holders, why do they need to hold objectives? This is an irrelevant point. You have the entirety of the rest of the army, and Marines are used to playing MTO style armies anyway thanks to crap troops in 6th. We play 1850, 1950 point games here. 675 points is a third of the army, there is a whole lot more to go around on top of that. 1a) They aren't an overpriced unit(S). If you are spending 165 points on an efficient HQ, which you have to pay the HQ tax for, 250 points on the grav cents which aren't overpriced for their table power they give no matter how much hate people want to give the new thing regardless of it's power level (ref Wraithknight) and a Standard Raider which is a good choice in the current meta. Please actually demonstrate where the overpricing is instead of just saying it and expecting people to believe you. Riptides aren't overpriced, Tervigons aren't overpriced, Wraithknights aren't overpriced, FMC aren't overpriced. All single models.

2) It's a lucky thing Str 10 isn't given out like candy then is it? That T5 is important because it's rare to run into Str10 shooting. The Land Raider is important here because the most likely Str 10 you'll hit, a stock Wraithknight, has to take on your Land Raider, it has to run the odds of getting the kill because it's 100% dead to Grav the next turn if not. I can't remember the last time I ever saw a Vindicator, or a demolisher for that matter. Neither are a problem to deal with.

3) No where near as pricey as a Farsight bomb. Farsight bomb needs to be careful as well, 15 Grav shots ignoring cover can make a mess of it. Against Orks, I'll worry about them when they get a new codex that puts them on a threat level with Tau and Eldar. Besides, it's not like Marines lack for low armor save killing weaponry (read: Bolters) across their codex. The Centurions even have 3 twinlinked ones themselves. But the matter of fact is, against Guard and Orks, Centurions don't waste their time with the chaff. Even a moron can work out basic target priority along the lines of "This is good at killing vehicles and armour, I think I'll shoot it at vehicles and armour instead of the unit of boyz my bolter units I'm forced to take anyway can deal to". Blobs went out when the Tau dex came in anyway.

I would reccomend changing your attitude,

Oh?

They don't have relevance if the person reading them does not understand what he is talking about, or English. But its ok, I will spell it out for you.

and is getting pretty butthurt

Honestly, you first, you hypocritical little prick.

@Thread: Getting a bit intense in here. Please stick to discussing the rules and skip the rudeness. Dakka Rule Number One is Be Polite. If you're posting here, you agreed to abide by that. Thanks.

Waaaghpower wrote:
My one problem with them is this: A single Vindicator shot (Or Equivalent) can wipe out an entire squad of these brutes with ease. At 60-100 points per model, they have a certain Achilles heel for S10 AP2.

Broadsides have the same drawback, but it's never stopped people from taking 3 squads of 3 in the previous codex or in the current one.

<phew> Read the whole thread.
You guys have convinced me of the following:

TL LC with ML and being able to split fire (that thingy I will not bother to look up) FTW (love these acronyms) .
I am going to use them how I planned: Replacements for dreadnaughts, keep them in the back yard and snipe.
In improved ruin cover from the Tech Marine from the Thunder Fire Cannon and it may all work out.

After removing the two "loin plates" front and back and gluing the two side plates to the top of the legs these guys look great (never thought I would say that) so I have to field them.

Devastators I can only say that you better be happy with your initial setup, moving and you lose a round of firing that is not as much a problem with the Centurion.
Having more boys do add some durability and receiving a charge but a 2+ narrows down where you receive "casual fire".

Got limited grav gun models (Stern Guard and new SM Tactical) and added them to troops, will now try to pry them off to put on bikers (that is truly brilliant, makes great sense).
On bikes, I really think something is going to die in an awful way at a good price!

These guys are not a "deal" but I think they can do the trick.
All that effort (Landraider) to get them in range with the Grav Cannons is a tough one and I think I would never try it: too many eggs in one basket.

Too bad a few people were getting a wee bit personal, but sure is entertaining for us bystanders! (where is my popcorn...)

I try not to get personal. Although a few persistent myths are very exasperating.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
My one problem with them is this: A single Vindicator shot (Or Equivalent) can wipe out an entire squad of these brutes with ease. At 60-100 points per model, they have a certain Achilles heel for S10 AP2.

Broadsides have the same drawback, but it's never stopped people from taking 3 squads of 3 in the previous codex or in the current one.

Or Necron Acanthrites, which I was recently convinced of the utility of.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
My one problem with them is this: A single Vindicator shot (Or Equivalent) can wipe out an entire squad of these brutes with ease. At 60-100 points per model, they have a certain Achilles heel for S10 AP2.

Broadsides have the same drawback, but it's never stopped people from taking 3 squads of 3 in the previous codex or in the current one.

This is true, and I believe would remain so for lascannon armed centurians, as you can easily dictate the range and set them up in decent cover.
Not to mention that broadsides are a pretty good counter to vindicators.
For the grav cannon ones however, where you have to get to medium range to do anything, this might not hold up.

I'm going to continue running them on foot with grav-cannons in the short term. I'm convinced of their ability to exploit cover and protect home objectives and influence the middle of the board. Almost every mobile objective taking/contesting unit is a 3+ save (Warp Spiders, Jet Bikes, Crisis Suits, Obliterators) and they will do a great job at keeping WS at bay for a turn or two. I also think they'll soak up an inordinate amount of firepower that won't be directed at my devastators or bikes.

Martel732 wrote:
I try not to get personal. Although a few persistent myths are very exasperating.

It is hard sometimes to make someone right!
From your prior post I agree these guys getting swamped if they get anywhere near the 24" range unless in a big tank which would upgrade it to #1 thing to die.
Most horde "blobs" are IG troops, Orks and Tyranid; all have low armor so grav gun is not much help.
The best way to make the Centurions ineffective is to jump them in melee even if they are the melee type.

I had a hard time seeing what these guys can do that some bikes or razorbacks could not do for less (or a Stormraven).
All they have to offer is the Grav Cannon as a unique thing and we are scratching our heads to figure out how they can use it without dying like dogs.

It is not so much fighting myths as getting people to see what would be "natural prey" for these models and what would be the typical fly swatter they would use to get rid of them.

I can't get FNP assault marines within charge range of Eldar with enough left to do any real damage, and that's AFTER dropping units in drop pods!

I just dont' see how these things make it to within 24" of an optimal target without the Eldar going LOL! you're vaporized!

Yeah, you can an IC in front with the rune shield thingie or whatever it is, but at T4, it just seems they'll eat all the scatter and shuricannon love first. Not to mention the expense of that scheme.

If the Wraithlord and Riptide were plodding and slow, I could say, yeah, this is gonna work. But they're not.

I did a quick breakdown of the DPP values of Centurians. This is how they stack up.
If these numbers don't make any sense, just read up on the concept of damage per point

Hurricane bolter + Grav Cannon
GEQ : 34.82.............48.35
MEQ : 37.60.............41.02
TEQ : 26.63..............28.34
This configuration is hell on wheels to any armored infantry. The second values are if the hurricane bolters are in double tap range (which should be fairly rare)
This config will also be a serious threat to any vehicle within 24".

ML+ Grav Cannon
GEQ : 23.56
MEQ : 36.78
TEQ : 23.37
Your increasing your range with the ML, but lowering your DPP vs GEQ significantly. Your basically doubling down against MEQ.

ML+ TL LC
GEQ : 12.26
MEQ : 12.26
TEQ : 5.10
This config is not good against infantry at all. Its designed for one purpose in mind -- the destruction of vehicles. This combines really well with tank hunter from IF CT.

How does this compare to 3 broadsides with 3 missile drones?
GEQ : 72.15
MEQ : 21.88
TEQ : 12.14

Which is better? Well, that depends. Are you going after MEQ or TEQ?

I can't wait for the first game when someone brings a Centurion deathstar and my Riptides demolish it from 60 inches away on Turn 1.

That's my basic problem with the Centurions. I think they can be a very powerful unit, but against the right tool, will fold like wet paper. Even putting them in a Landraider is not a guarantee of success, it just makes me take an additional step: shoot landraider with Hammerheads, THEN blow them up with Riptides.

The Grav Cannons are powerful, but I still think the range you get from Lascannons/Missile Launchers will be their saving grace.

Thanks for crunching the numbers labmouse42.

I'm gonna run them as the anti-tank setup you described with the IF CT today.

I'll let everybody know how they do.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
My one problem with them is this: A single Vindicator shot (Or Equivalent) can wipe out an entire squad of these brutes with ease. At 60-100 points per model, they have a certain Achilles heel for S10 AP2.

Broadsides have the same drawback, but it's never stopped people from taking 3 squads of 3 in the previous codex or in the current one.

This is true, and I believe would remain so for lascannon armed centurians, as you can easily dictate the range and set them up in decent cover.
Not to mention that broadsides are a pretty good counter to vindicators.
For the grav cannon ones however, where you have to get to medium range to do anything, this might not hold up.

S8 Ap1 it not a very good matchup for a vindicator. Honestly, Centurions are probably a better buy then Broadsides even though they are more expensive. I'd take Tl Las and a ML over the railcannon any day (maybe even the HYMP).

 labmouse42 wrote:
I did a quick breakdown of the DPP values of Centurians. This is how they stack up.

Hurricane bolter + Grav Cannon
GEQ : 34.82.............48.35
MEQ : 37.60.............41.02
TEQ : 26.63..............28.34
This configuration is hell on wheels to any armored infantry. The second values are if the hurricane bolters are in double tap range (which should be fairly rare)
This config will also be a serious threat to any vehicle within 24".

ML+ Grav Cannon
GEQ : 23.56
MEQ : 36.78
TEQ : 23.37
Your increasing your range with the ML, but lowering your DPP vs GEQ significantly. Your basically doubling down against MEQ.

ML+ TL LC
GEQ : 12.26
MEQ : 12.26
TEQ : 5.10
This config is not good against infantry at all. Its designed for one purpose in mind -- the destruction of vehicles. This combines really well with tank hunter from IF CT.

How does this compare to 3 broadsides with 3 missile drones?
GEQ : 72.15
MEQ : 21.88
TEQ : 12.14

Which is better? Well, that depends. Are you going after MEQ or TEQ?

Where did you get your Broadside numbers from? 12 TEQ kills seems waaaay too high for 3 Broadsides with HYMP, TL SMS, and 3 drones.

Which makes me suspect your other numbers as well.

EDIT: Broadsides should be closer to:

GEQ - 16.65
MEQ - 5.04
TEQ - 2.51

EDIT 2: I may be misunderstanding what you did. If so, I apologize.

Those are points, killed I think, not number of models killed

labmouse42's numbers are dakka per point.

I'll be using the hurricane bolters and grav cannon/amp today. The numbers confirm what I though. Send them midfield and they will dictate the battlefield.

 phoenix darkus wrote:
Thanks for crunching the numbers labmouse42.

I'm gonna run them as the anti-tank setup you described with the IF CT today.

I'll let everybody know how they do.

Thanks. I look forward to hearing how they work for wrecking vehicles.

 Trozen wrote:
labmouse42's numbers are dakka per point.

I'll be using the hurricane bolters and grav cannon/amp today. The numbers confirm what I though. Send them midfield and they will dictate the battlefield.

Let us know how it goes. I've been trying to decide between grav cannon or TW LC before I build mine.

MadmanMSU wrote:
Where did you get your Broadside numbers from? 12 TEQ kills seems waaaay too high for 3 Broadsides with HYMP, TL SMS, and 3 drones.

Which makes me suspect your other numbers as well.

EDIT: Broadsides should be closer to:

GEQ - 16.65
MEQ - 5.04
TEQ - 2.51

EDIT 2: I may be misunderstanding what you did. If so, I apologize.

DPP is a concept called "Damage Per Point". Were not talking about how many TEQ broadsides kill, but instead how many they kill compared to their point cost.

Its a much more useful metric for determine the value of a unit.

Go to http://simhammer.com and look up the posts there. If you dig mathhammer and analysis you might really enjoy it.

I'm still not sure what this value represents though? I mean how are you figuring that 72.5 GEQ kills is framed from their point cost? I think your RPP is spot on but I still think DPP and CPP are seriously flawed tools.

I think you need to better premise what your figures are representing, because without a better description of your target goal, those numbers seem meaningless.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I'm still not sure what this value represents though? I mean how are you figuring that 72.5 GEQ kills is framed from their point cost? I think your RPP is spot on but I still think DPP and CPP are seriously flawed tools.

I think you need to better premise what your figures are representing, because without a better description of your target goal, those numbers seem meaningless.

If you read the description he has on the website linked, the formula is:

1000 * (Models Killed) / (Unit Cost), So it's basically the number of models killed divided by the points cost, then artificially shifted up so that the numbers are more manageable (it's a lot easier to format with numbers like 75.6 than 0.0756).

 Red Corsair wrote:
I'm still not sure what this value represents though? I mean how are you figuring that 72.5 GEQ kills is framed from their point cost? I think your RPP is spot on but I still think DPP and CPP are seriously flawed tools.

I think you need to better premise what your figures are representing, because without a better description of your target goal, those numbers seem meaningless.

Thanks for the input! Did you get a chance to read about the concept of damage per point? I am sure that will help to explain what those values mean. As mentioned above, its describing 72 GEQ kills. Instead its talking about how many they can kill on a per-point basis in regards to other units.

If you would rather hear me discuss it, you can go to the 11th company podcast and look for simhammer segments. I spend 20 minutes describing the idea of DPP and giving examples. If you would rather just PM me, I can email the mp3 file to you to listen to.

What is CPP? I'm not familiar with that term? I describe (Area of Influence) sometimes, and its the subject of next weeks segment. Is that what you were referring to?

Thanks for the input. I'll make sure to link the articles on DPP when I discuss them. I had incorrectly assumed that everyone who has read my posts would have heard me describe them at great length.

TehCheator wrote:
1000 * (Models Killed) / (Unit Cost), So it's basically the number of models killed divided by the points cost, then artificially shifted up so that the numbers are more manageable (it's a lot easier to format with numbers like 75.6 than 0.0756).

That's pretty much it. When adjusting for units, I've tried to give DPP/RPP/AoI roughly the same end values. The idea is you can look at unit A and say "Its got a better DPP value than RPP, so its more like a glass cannon unit"

Hey I think I have it now, it's the type of thing that you get a handle on then someone misinterprets it here and I start looking at it skewed ha ha. I think the terminology of number of kills was being brain farted on my part as I forgot that we were artificially shifting decimal places. So rather then seeing percents per point I was looking at actual kills. I hope I didn't come across rude BTW either, I appreciate your algorithms. Obviously we need to look at several other factors and variables as you state on your blog, but it gives us at least some solid footing to start on.


Really I think people are underestimating the centurions in conjunction with other units. I mean consider a pair of grav armed bike squads with character support to ad RPP, with LC ML cents backing them up. Now lets remember that serpent shields and SC can only fire forward and those bikes can easily immobilize that serpent, do they turn an use it full pay load on squad A and expose their rear to squad B, do they fire their shield and allow those IF CT cents catch them with their shield down.

Even when using grav canons, sure those serpents and WK's can out range them, but we aren't looking at a true battle field, with deployment zones and first turn moves+weapon ranges, if your avoiding that squads threat arch, your very limited to available table space.

EDIT: CPP was choppa per point, your words actually See I did read it

 labmouse42 wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:
Where did you get your Broadside numbers from? 12 TEQ kills seems waaaay too high for 3 Broadsides with HYMP, TL SMS, and 3 drones.

Which makes me suspect your other numbers as well.

EDIT: Broadsides should be closer to:

GEQ - 16.65
MEQ - 5.04
TEQ - 2.51

EDIT 2: I may be misunderstanding what you did. If so, I apologize.

DPP is a concept called "Damage Per Point". Were not talking about how many TEQ broadsides kill, but instead how many they kill compared to their point cost.

Its a much more useful metric for determine the value of a unit.

Go to http://simhammer.com and look up the posts there. If you dig mathhammer and analysis you might really enjoy it.

Ah, yes. I thought that's what you were doing, but I didn't understand why you would normalize them to 1000.

I personally don't look at math-hammer this way very often, since what you're looking at is the efficiency of the unit, which does not inform you of the overall value of a unit. It can be useful, but I disagree that it is a more useful metric for measuring a unit.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Really I think people are underestimating the centurions in conjunction with other units. I mean consider a pair of grav armed bike squads with character support to ad RPP, with LC ML cents backing them up. Now lets remember that serpent shields and SC can only fire forward and those bikes can easily immobilize that serpent,

Agreed! Do you shoot at the centurians, or do you go after the bikes that will be assaulting you next turn. I played Eldar for a while and assault is the big weakness of serpents. Even 5 marines getting close with krak gernades can be the end of a serpent.

Centurions I think also benefit greatly from force multipliers. A buff commander giving 'ignore cover' to a unit of centurians means one squad can kill 1-2 wave serpents a year. Throwing them in a bastion means they are immune to any damage wave serpents can deliver, etc... Its easy to look at centurians in a vacuum and not see how they interact with force multipliers.

 Red Corsair wrote:
sure those serpents and WK's can out range them, but we aren't looking at a true battle field, with deployment zones and first turn moves+weapon ranges, if your avoiding that squads threat arch, your very limited to available table space.

Yes. I talked about this in the simhammer segment that comes out this week. A 30" AoI is really quite good when placed correctly. Sticking a squad of cents in the center of the board gives a very nasty threat radius to any unit near it. If the unit is in the center of the board, they will be hitting most things. Just their presence in that area of the board exhibits very strong board control.

 Red Corsair wrote:
EDIT: CPP was choppa per point, your words actually See I did read it

Heh...yea, I forgot I used to separate dakka per point and choppa per point. Since then I realized they are effectively the same thing -- a unit just does damage in different phases.

Do I think centurians are the new black? No. I think they are probably getting undervalued from the initial glance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MadmanMSU wrote:
I personally don't look at math-hammer this way very often, since what you're looking at is the efficiency of the unit, which does not inform you of the overall value of a unit. It can be useful, but I disagree that it is a more useful metric for measuring a unit.

Finding the value of units has actually been the focus of my simhammering for the past few months. I've pinned it down to the following traits.

* Damage per Point
* Resilience per Point
* Area of Influence
* Movement capacity
* Scoring ability

Which trait is more important is arbitrary. You might like units that are more resilient, you might like glass cannons, or you might like fast units. That's all up to you. The point of the comparisons is to find the units that best fit your wishes.

If you have suggestions I'm all ears

I actually almost suggested a bastion for them but I think if we are using a bastion your better off with a LC devastator squad and buff commander as its cheaper and has the same merits so long as the school house doesn't burn down