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So I really like a iron hands chapter master with Shield Eternal, Burning Blade, artificer armor. He is extremely tough to take down and not bad in cc. I ran him with centurions and it was OK but it a lot of points.

What other ways would make him work? Put him on a bike? Have him go with vanguard vets? Any ideas?

You can only take one Relic per character.

Otherwise, he's a beast.

I'd go with that EW SS, TH, AA on a bike. Seems to be the best build.

As far as I can tell you can't take two of the same named relic but you can take multiple on one unit. I could be wrong but that's how I read it.

It states in pg 159:

"A model may replace one weapon with one relic from the following list".

It's exactly like the DA relics. One per model.

Puscifer wrote:
It states in pg 159:

"A model may replace one weapon with one relic from the following list".

It's exactly like the DA relics. One per model.

That's a weapon but why can't you take a weapon and the shield? You can take multiple different relics in the Eldar book.

Just repeating what it says in the dex, guys.

I'd like to take the Shield and the Sword, but...

A) A Thunder Hammer is better.

B) We can't take more than Relic per Character.

In codex Eldar, certain artefacts do not replace your weapons. In this case, you may take 1 artefact which replaces a weapon and as many as you wish which do not replace a weapon as this still satisfies the criteria of "replace one weapon with one of the following".

If there are any relics which do not replace a weapon in C:SM, the same would apply.

Iranna.

I'll be running the same guy, but I am still working out what gear is most efficient for me. EW is very nice but I am not sure it is worth the cost. In the way of weapons, it comes to how useful the strike down and blind are going to be. The thunder hammer is great, just personally have a hard time giving up I5.

FYI Iron Hands do not have a chapter master. Call him a Clan Master.

Call him a Grand Master of the Forge as far as it matter, he is still a beast.

Properly equipped he will be harder to take down then my iridium crisis tank.

Puscifer wrote:
It states in pg 159:

"A model may replace one weapon with one relic from the following list".

It's exactly like the DA relics. One per model.

This sentence could also be interpreted to mean that a model can only take a Chapter Relic by replacing an existing weapon on a one-for-one basis. The entry must be taken in conjunction with the wording in the character entry: "This model can take items from the X, Y, Z and Chapter Relics lists." So the character can take any number of items from any of these lists (including Chapter Relics), but the Chapter Relics further stipulate that Relics may be bought only by exchanging one weapon for one Relic. It's really just a less restrictive version of the text in the other armory sections, which specify that the model must replace its boltgun (for heavy weapons) and so on. So the maximum number of Relics a single character could take would be three (two weapons and the armor).

This is my interpretation (I'm not terribly attached to it, and I'm not looking to get into a rules debate), but regardless of whether you can take multiple relics, at 50+ points a pop for the good ones, would it ever be cost-effective?

I think the build that has been thrown around is an Iron Hands Chapter Master with bike, thunder hammer, artificer armor and Shield Eternal. 270 points, but with T5, 4W, 4A, 2+/3++/6+FNP, IWND and Eternal Warrior, he can take just about anything in CC and keep going. Not sure where he would fit into a list, but he's certainly nifty.

 Roboute wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
It states in pg 159:

"A model may replace one weapon with one relic from the following list".

It's exactly like the DA relics. One per model.

This sentence could also be interpreted to mean that a model can only take a Chapter Relic by replacing an existing weapon on a one-for-one basis. The entry must be taken in conjunction with the wording in the character entry: "This model can take items from the X, Y, Z and Chapter Relics lists." So the character can take any number of items from any of these lists (including Chapter Relics), but the Chapter Relics further stipulate that Relics may be bought only by exchanging one weapon for one Relic. It's really just a less restrictive version of the text in the other armory sections, which specify that the model must replace its boltgun (for heavy weapons) and so on. So the maximum number of Relics a single character could take would be three (two weapons and the armor).

This is my interpretation (I'm not terribly attached to it, and I'm not looking to get into a rules debate), but regardless of whether you can take multiple relics, at 50+ points a pop for the good ones, would it ever be cost-effective?

I think the build that has been thrown around is an Iron Hands Chapter Master with bike, thunder hammer, artificer armor and Shield Eternal. 270 points, but with T5, 4W, 4A, 2+/3++/6+FNP, IWND and Eternal Warrior, he can take just about anything in CC and keep going. Not sure where he would fit into a list, but he's certainly nifty.

I totally agree with you with the rules ambiguity. It's definitely open to interpretation.

That build of IH CM could only really go into a Bike or Attack Bike Squadron. He just needs an escort to get him there.

It states in pg 159:

"A model may replace one weapon with one relic from the following list".

It's exactly like the DA relics. One per model.

In the DA dex pg 91 all it says is "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following."
There is nothing to stop a company master from taking two relic weapons as he can exchange both his bolt pistol and chainsword for them. So yo you could have him with both Foe-smiter(relic stormbolter) and the Mace of redemption with no rules problem. The wording in not different in the SM dex so where does it says you can't have two per character?

Puscifer wrote:
I totally agree with you with the rules ambiguity. It's definitely open to interpretation.

That build of IH CM could only really go into a Bike or Attack Bike Squadron. He just needs an escort to get him there.

Yeah, a bike squad is pretty much the only escort for him, but that wasn't quite what I was trying to get at. I'm simply wondering if, from a competitive standpoint, a 270-point beatstick will ever be an efficient use of points in a C:SM army, regardless of the model's effectiveness. I would love running him purely for the fun of it, but surely those points could be better spent on a cheap MotF and more shooting? I suppose that giving his escort 2 grav guns and a combi-grav could make a dedicated anti-MC unit that's mobile enough to chase Wraithknights/Riptides, perhaps that could work well.

I'm quite excited about my Iron Hands being competitive, or at least having something decent for a change.

I am pondering on the setup and this thread has me thinking, that Bikes although looking good are a points sink for an escort unit for the Boss on a bike.

I do want to be able to cripple a WraithKnight / Riptides.

 Roboute wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
I totally agree with you with the rules ambiguity. It's definitely open to interpretation.

That build of IH CM could only really go into a Bike or Attack Bike Squadron. He just needs an escort to get him there.

Yeah, a bike squad is pretty much the only escort for him, but that wasn't quite what I was trying to get at. I'm simply wondering if, from a competitive standpoint, a 270-point beatstick will ever be an efficient use of points in a C:SM army, regardless of the model's effectiveness. I would love running him purely for the fun of it, but surely those points could be better spent on a cheap MotF and more shooting? I suppose that giving his escort 2 grav guns and a combi-grav could make a dedicated anti-MC unit that's mobile enough to chase Wraithknights/Riptides, perhaps that could work well.

Done a little testing with the IH CM on the bike vs a number of different characters and as expected, he performed well.

270 pts is a sink, but at only 5 points less than Lysander, you get a more mobile character that is tougher than the big yellow bruiser and is only moderately less skilled at dishing out the beats. He gets one more attack than Lysander, at str 8 instead of 10, but it has HoW and a Twin Linked Boltgun plus added maneuverability.

Definitely worth taking in 1750+ games, possibly 1500, but no less than that.

 mwnciboo wrote:
I'm quite excited about my Iron Hands being competitive, or at least having something decent for a change.

I am pondering on the setup and this thread has me thinking, that Bikes although looking good are a points sink for an escort unit for the Boss on a bike.

I do want to be able to cripple a WraithKnight / Riptides.

If you want to cripple a wraithknight use a normal bike set up, 5 bikes w/ AB 2 grav guns combi-wep decently cheap and and affective at crippling those well and very durable believe it or not.

Coolio, I've got alot of options for my Iron Hands already, but everyone at my club is buying Wraithknights and Riptides.

I played a game last week, with TAU / ELDAR Allies, a RIPTIDE and a WRAITHKNIGHT and all i could think was "ALLIES has ruined 6th Edition, because the balance is gone. You can cherry pick the best parts of each book." Balance implied you had to take the rough with the smooth, that for every good option you had a corresponding Compromise, but now you can engineer the weaknesses out of some lists by complimentary allies.

Right I'm off to find some suitably Mechanicus Bikes, that I can use in 30k and 40k....

I ran into the eldar with tau allies, basically backwards from what you faced but i assume it was the general concept. That allied army is an example of being broken.

After seeing this thread im thinking of possibly using some IH as allies to my guard. A nice bike Death Star could be useful.

I ran a WS chapter master with Shield Eternal, Thunder Hammer, Artificer Armor and Bike in my first (and only) game so far with the new Codex. He did amazingly well. In the course of the game, he went from the right flank entirely across the board to the left flank and killed two tervigons in challenges and put 3 wounds on the third (he hit and ran away before killing this one to reinforce an objective grab) before finally succumbing to massed hive tyrant shooting after the second tervigon died just a little too early. EW and 4 wounds is a great combo and the high saves are just beastly. The extra attack over the stock captain makes all the difference in the world.

I'm gonna use a Chapter Master and call him a Clan Leader possibly on a bike. MOTF will be a support HQ assuming he can still sport a Conversion Beamer!!

I think maybe 2 Thunderfires Cannons, or maybe one with an Achilles with a Techmarine in it. I need to look at an AA tank to deal with Helldrakes etc which come along lot. Maybe a Grav Biker Squad, maybe a Drop pod of Sternies and then as many tacticals as I can squeeze in.

Drawing up some 1750 lists now.

My plan is to run a Chapter Master for my IH successor chapter (of course using the IH Chapter Tactics). MoTF is definitely making it in, as is my Achilles. I will also put in both other Land Raiders. Add troops and flavor to taste.

For the Record I will be stone cold dead in the ground, before I would ever buy any of those "Space-Marines-in-a-Space-Marine" Models.

£47.50 for 3 Russian Doll versions of Space Marines - GW can go Auto-fellate itself.

SRy - how do you guys get 270 for the CM. Is he not 250?