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So...since I am taking a pause on my Templars until they get a good FAQ on some things, or even a supplement, I actually started reading about the other chapters. I have always enjoyed close combat in 40k, and wanted the SM army that did that well. At this point I am debating Blood Angels and with the codex, now I am looking at White Scars.

White Scars are kind of leading the way because they get a great set of chapter tactics. Hit and Run on all models in the detachment is crazy. Bikes and Assault marines charging in and out and back into close combat. I can see it now. The thing is...does that rule actually FIX power lances? I think it might. When is the last time anyone actually used a power lance? I think I have seen one on a bike sergeant and that was for fluff...but now it sort of makes sense, with WS CT. The power lance is +1S/AP3 on the charge, and user/AP4 otherwise. So essentially its a power sword with furious charge, and then turns ap4 after the charge. Not great, but interesting.

But with Hit and Run, you can get in, basically get furious charge for free on a power weapon, hit and run out, and charge back in next turn for the bonuses all over again. They are also just melee, not specialist or unwieldy, so you get the bonus ccw attack with it too. Just a thought, but especially on white scar biker sergeants and assault marine vets, a power lance seems decent to me. Any thoughts on that tactic?

I like it on WS. fluffy and effective, particularly if the unit is led by the khan. Then it's S6 AP3 on the charge.

Lances are pretty good now for WS. I'm going to replace my biker's powerfist with a lance and melta bombs. AP3 is good enough for what that squad charges 90+% of the time and the melta bomb is more reliable vehicle damage.

That said, BT are extremely viable in the new Codex. You can no longer get pulled off an objective by Righteous Zeal and your entire army has Adamantium Will (DTW on a 5+ is awesome) and Crusader (more reliable runs and the ability to effectively sweep any non-ATSKNF/fearless unit). The Crusader Squad is still good (up to 20 troops in a DT Landraider) and you now have access to every Marine support unit without allies (most critically the TFC). I don't see why they'd need an FAQ or a supplement.

They need one because they are a close combat army and they have nothing to benefit anyone other than IC in cc. Fluff wise they neglect ranged units in favor of the assaulting units. So while they are viable as a vanilla ranged SM army...they actually got worse than their last codex in terms of melee.

Their unique crusader squad is not bad...but they only become viable in a close combat BT army if you spam them. And I personally don't want to spam a horde SM army.

Anyways...the BT comment was meant to be a segue into the WS power lance discussion. I am becoming more of a fan of the power lance biker idea the more I think of it. And command squads can get storm shields for 10 a piece with an apothecary to assist with FNP. Means the command unit can go around harassing bigger targets and live while troop bike units harass lighter units.

P.S. A white scars bike gang would be good to go pin units to allow crusader mobs to run and charge in for the assist without much worry about shooting and overwatch. Afterwords WS bikes hit and run away to go engage other units left out of the first assaults.

jamin484 wrote:
I like it on WS. fluffy and effective, particularly if the unit is led by the khan. Then it's S6 AP3 on the charge.

Khan only has FC for himself IIRC.

I think you are right, but the BRB may say any unit that has ONE model with it gets furious charge as a whole unit, because I have played my furious charge 4e BT termies with an IC attached and IIRC the IC got it because the termies had it. I dont have the BRB on hand to check it.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

jamin484 wrote:
I like it on WS. fluffy and effective, particularly if the unit is led by the khan. Then it's S6 AP3 on the charge.

Khan only has FC for himself IIRC.

Yes indeed, my mistake. cheers.

Edit: Furious charge does not pass onto the attached unit. The wording is "if a model with this special rule..."

Still makes him a bit better though. People may say he's pants in combat, but 5A @ S5 AP3 on the charge is nothing to sneeze at.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Still makes him a bit better though. People may say he's pants in combat, but 5A @ S5 AP3 on the charge is nothing to sneeze at.

Don't forget the extra d3 hits from his HoW

Yeah d3 S5 attacks that automatically hit, at initiative 10 is nothing to sneeze at either.

I think people think he's pants compared to tricked out captains. He's cheap though, considering he gives army wide scout...

jamin484 wrote:
I think people think he's pants compared to tricked out captains. He's cheap though, considering he gives army wide scout...

Yup. I think that alone does it. Especially in bad match-ups, being able to Outflank or Scout out of LOS is big.

Outflank is epic in that stupid short edge setup. But a 2+/3++ captain can tank Heldrake hits all day long... decisions, decisions.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Outflank is epic in that stupid short edge setup. But a 2+/3++ captain can tank Heldrake hits all day long... decisions, decisions.

Solution: White Scars "Great Hunt" list with Chapter Master Beat Stick AND Khan. Ties up about 400 points in HQs but I was spending close to that anyway for a souped up Bike Captain and Rune Priest before anyway. That gives you a lot of tactical versatility and I don't know if a librarian is an auto-include without divination for regular Marines.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Outflank is epic in that stupid short edge setup. But a 2+/3++ captain can tank Heldrake hits all day long... decisions, decisions.

Solution: White Scars "Great Hunt" list with Chapter Master Beat Stick AND Khan. Ties up about 400 points in HQs but I was spending close to that anyway for a souped up Bike Captain and Rune Priest before anyway. That gives you a lot of tactical versatility and I don't know if a librarian is an auto-include without divination for regular Marines.

Yup, I had a few lists set up with Iron Hands and White Scars, with Khan's detachment providing the bikes, and the Iron Hands guy being buffed out of his mind.

And it gives you access to pretty effective MSUs on the field. I wouldn't recommend it at 1500 because of FOC limitations, but at 2K, you get 3 HS slots of the IH CM allowing for lots of fun IWND vehicles, while you can take bikes with Khan's detachment with scout/outflank.