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I've been looking through the new SM codex, through dakka topics, and it seems like every one is gung ho about Grav weapons, yet I am still skeptical. I get 2/3 salvo has more potential shots than a Plasma Gun, but at shorter range. I understand that it can be great at taking out MCs. It's AP 2, so is Plasma. It doesn't get hot and has concussive. But is that really what all the fuss is about? Granted, my meta is no where near a super competitive tournament scene, so there are no Tau/Eldar OP armies running around or Heldrake spam, which means to me the weapon loses most of its potential. Perhaps someone can give me a different perspective on this new weapon tree that I'm not really seeing.

I think it's a niche weapon, I can't see much reason to spam it. After the FAQ I see the most effective platform being a Command Squad on Bikes with 5 grav guns which would be pretty brutal.

The Grav Cannon Centurion build will kill most things it manages to shoot at, but limited range really hampers the unit.

Yeah, I don't see Grav being too popular on non-Relentless models. On Bikes and Centurions, however... when you get a good salvo off, beautiful things will happen.

You might as well ignore the 2 part of Salvo, as you will never see these weapons on non-Relentless models IMO.

As for its usefulness, unlike Plasma, it can't hurt you, and doesn't care about toughness. It is brutal against TEQ and MEQ, and still not bad at all against GEQ. It falls flat after that, but you should be taking it on Bikers or Centurions, so they have AP5 guns waiting to use also for that.

The main thing is that it is a decent counter to Riptides and a fantastic counter to Wave Serpents.

This chart shows the number of kills that a grav gun and plasma guns will make. The two flat lines are plasma guns (double tap and single tap) while the linear line is the grav gun.


At ranges over 12", the grav gun is better against anything when shot at anything 5+ save or better. At short range, the grav gun is better when shot at targets with a 3+ save or better.

The reason for this difference lies in the number of shots. The grav gun is getting 3 shots where the plasma gun is getting only 1 or 2. That is a difference of 300% more shots at long range and 50% more shots at short range.

When put onto a bike platform, the range element of a grav gun is less of an issue. The area of influence is still 30" when you have a 12" move and an 18" gun. The biggest weakness I see is not being able kill outside your 24" kill range unless you take a HB attack bike.

On foot grav guns are not quite as good. This is because they have limited range and shots if moved. Their best platform is a C:SM bike or a Centurion.

 labmouse42 wrote:
This chart shows the number of kills that a grav gun and plasma guns will make. The two flat lines are plasma guns (double tap and single tap) while the linear line is the grav gun.


At ranges over 12", the grav gun is better against anything when shot at anything 5+ save or better. At short range, the grav gun is better when shot at targets with a 3+ save or better.

The reason for this difference lies in the number of shots. The grav gun is getting 3 shots where the plasma gun is getting only 1 or 2. That is a difference of 300% more shots at long range and 50% more shots at short range.

When put onto a bike platform, the range element of a grav gun is less of an issue. The area of influence is still 30" when you have a 12" move and an 18" gun. The biggest weakness I see is not being able kill outside your 24" kill range unless you take a HB attack bike.

On foot grav guns are not quite as good. This is because they have limited range and shots if moved. Their best platform is a C:SM bike or a Centurion.

They're super extra good on Centurions due to the grav amps right? Being able to reroll wounds/hull point stripping would be pretty brutal.

For those people curious.

This is a similar chart showing the comparison between grav guns and TL bolters. This shows the number of kills made with each weapon.


The logic is the following
- If your target has a 6+ armor save, use the TL bolter
- If your target has a 5+ armor save and is at short range, use the TL bolter
- Otherwise, use the grav gun.

 Kain wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
This chart shows the number of kills that a grav gun and plasma guns will make. The two flat lines are plasma guns (double tap and single tap) while the linear line is the grav gun.


At ranges over 12", the grav gun is better against anything when shot at anything 5+ save or better. At short range, the grav gun is better when shot at targets with a 3+ save or better.

The reason for this difference lies in the number of shots. The grav gun is getting 3 shots where the plasma gun is getting only 1 or 2. That is a difference of 300% more shots at long range and 50% more shots at short range.

When put onto a bike platform, the range element of a grav gun is less of an issue. The area of influence is still 30" when you have a 12" move and an 18" gun. The biggest weakness I see is not being able kill outside your 24" kill range unless you take a HB attack bike.

On foot grav guns are not quite as good. This is because they have limited range and shots if moved. Their best platform is a C:SM bike or a Centurion.

They're super extra good on Centurions due to the grav amps right? Being able to reroll wounds/hull point stripping would be pretty brutal.

Centurions are expensive and slow though. Easier to avoid then bikes.

 Kain wrote:
They're super extra good on Centurions due to the grav amps right? Being able to reroll wounds/hull point stripping would be pretty brutal.

In my playtesting, yes.

They actually have a decent range as well. Being able to move 6" and shoot a 24" gun does not suck. The big problem is they are not very mobile. If you did not deploy them correctly, they will be SoL for most of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mythantor wrote:
Centurions are expensive and slow though. Easier to avoid then bikes.

The area of influence is actually the same between the two.

6" move + 24" gun = 30"
12" move + 18" gun = 30"

As I mentioned through, the issue is that the bikes can reposition quickly to get into a good line of firing. Cents can quickly be SoL.

Centurion grav gun is also a cannon, not a rifle, so it shoots what was it 3/5 (i.e. always 5 since theyre SNP?). Other than cost, not sure why you would take biker grav guns over centurion grav cannons.

Bikers are troops.

Cents are in the heavily contested 'heavy' FoC.

 labmouse42 wrote:
This chart shows the number of kills that a grav gun and plasma guns will make. The two flat lines are plasma guns (double tap and single tap) while the linear line is the grav gun.

I don't think this can possibly be correct. Plasma guns don't have straight line effectiveness, because their target's toughness can change. Consider a plasma gun versus a MEQ, versus a Centurion, a Tervigon, or a Wraithknight.

When put onto a bike platform, the range element of a grav gun is less of an issue. The area of influence is still 30" when you have a 12" move and an 18" gun. The biggest weakness I see is not being able kill outside your 24" kill range unless you take a HB attack bike.

Well, and that it's not a very good weapon against vehicles or lightly armoured stuff. A plasmagun is never wasted. Try using a grav gun against a daemon army where you're wounding just about everything on 6+.

 Redbeard wrote:

Well, and that it's not a very good weapon against vehicles or lightly armoured stuff. A plasmagun is never wasted. Try using a grav gun against a daemon army where you're wounding just about everything on 6+.

Well against vehicles there's a darn good chance a couple of grav rifles will immobilize the vehicle. I wouldn't call that not very good.

True, a plasma gun may work ok against more targets, but the grav rifles work extremely well against certain things.

Bikes aren't HS and can redeploy very quickly thanks to turbo boosting. They're also less vulnerable to AP2 in the open a thallus too.

 Redbeard wrote:
I don't think this can possibly be correct. Plasma guns don't have straight line effectiveness, because their target's toughness can change. Consider a plasma gun versus a MEQ, versus a Centurion, a Tervigon, or a Wraithknight.

You won't see a change in the PG chart until you start hitting T6 targets. A Centurion is just as tough as a marine as far as PGs are concerned.

Against tougher opponents, the grav gun wins hands down. Now given that usually creatures with a T6 or above also have a 3+ save, I figured that was pretty much a given that grav guns were the better solution. The only exception are greater daemons that did not get the 3+ armor save buff, but I've not seen many of those lately. Usually I just see flying DPs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redbeard wrote:
Well, and that it's not a very good weapon against vehicles or lightly armoured stuff. A plasmagun is never wasted. Try using a grav gun against a daemon army where you're wounding just about everything on 6+.

Your wounding DPs on a 3+. Those are the biggest targets.

Against the fleshhounds, horrors, or damonettes you just use the TL bolters. That's what the diagram was showing you

 labmouse42 wrote:


6" move + 24" gun = 30"
12" move + 18" gun = 30"

As I mentioned through, the issue is that the bikes can reposition quickly to get into a good line of firing. Cents can quickly be SoL.

That is how I see it. I'll be doing my real world testing on the grav cents but I am liking them on paper. I plan on using both them and a squad of grav bikes.

I can shoot my TL bolters at demons.

labmouse42 wrote:
Against tougher opponents, the grav gun wins hands down. Now given that usually creatures with a T6 or above also have a 3+ save, I figured that was pretty much a given that grav guns were the better solution. The only exception are greater daemons that did not get the 3+ armor save buff, but I've not seen many of those lately. Usually I just see flying DPs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redbeard wrote:
Well, and that it's not a very good weapon against vehicles or lightly armoured stuff. A plasmagun is never wasted. Try using a grav gun against a daemon army where you're wounding just about everything on 6+.

Your wounding DPs on a 3+. Those are the biggest targets.

Against the fleshhounds, horrors, or damonettes you just use the TL bolters. That's what the diagram was showing you

Slightly off-topic, but I don't understand why anyone would buy 3+ on a daemon prince, because it messes with the major gift table. I've never bought it, and have generally considered it a waste of points when playing against people who have.

And, yes, on a bike, you can switch to the TL bolter, but that's not a given, nor is it really a good argument for the strength of the grav gun that you need to use another weapon on a regular basis.

The reason you take the 3+ save is that you can drop to the weapon reward if you get it.

The 3+ save on a Tzeentch prince means your getting nearly a 2+ effective save. That's the difference of getting shredded by bolter fire and laughing at the incoming shots.

The thing about the grav vs plasma, is that is your shooting at GEQ you don't want to be shooting the PG anyway due to the overheating. That's why I don't see any practical loss to the grav.

Lab mouse your math on that graph is wrong. I just looked at the twin linked bolter one at 5+ armor. It should be .88 (chance to hit with twin link, assuming bs4)*2(#of shots)*.5(assuming t4)= 0.888 wounds.

Because the things that grav guns are good against, I really want dead. Really, really want dead. I can shoot demons with autocannons or whatever.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Centurion grav gun is also a cannon, not a rifle, so it shoots what was it 3/5 (i.e. always 5 since theyre SNP?). Other than cost, not sure why you would take biker grav guns over centurion grav cannons.

Maybe you'll see why the next time someone moves 12" and goes around your cover to shoot you
That also gives them a 5+ cover (4+ for White Scars).

I doubt daemon players will stop getting the armor save upgrade because of grav guns. If that is the case they will die to mass bolter fire if their only save is a 5+.

Naugatan wrote:
Lab mouse your math on that graph is wrong. I just looked at the twin linked bolter one at 5+ armor. It should be .88 (chance to hit with twin link, assuming bs4)*2(#of shots)*.5(assuming t4)= 0.888 wounds.

Gads your right! Let me fix that now. I still had the (to wound) of plasma guns in my excel sheet. What can I say? It was before I had coffee.
Thanks for catching that

So....at long range you want to use the grav gun at anything 5+ save or better. At short range the TL bolter is better vs 5+

Kangodo wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Centurion grav gun is also a cannon, not a rifle, so it shoots what was it 3/5 (i.e. always 5 since theyre SNP?). Other than cost, not sure why you would take biker grav guns over centurion grav cannons.

Maybe you'll see why the next time someone moves 12" and goes around your cover to shoot you
That also gives them a 5+ cover (4+ for White Scars).

Helldrakes are a thing still. I really have to think about how I want to roll on this.

Yeah figured that might help, if my math is correct its still better to use grav than twin linked bolter on 4+ (with t2+) armor and also on 5+ assuming t5 and higher.

Martel732 wrote:
Helldrakes are a thing still. I really have to think about how I want to roll on this.

More bikes, more AA and more Interceptor!

Naugatan wrote:
Yeah figured that might help, if my math is correct its still better to use grav than twin linked bolter on 4+ (with t2+) armor and also on 5+ assuming t5 and higher.

Just put your formula into excel and make a graph out of it.
Whats cool is the graph auto-updates depending on your changes to the formula.
I find this a great tool for analysis. I just updated this one to reflect a T5 target.

Or Stormravens maybe. Can't believe I'm suggesting it, but the Stormraven actually looks better now that marines themselves are cheaper.

Tau allies.