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Martel732 wrote:
Or Stormravens maybe. Can't believe I'm suggesting it, but the Stormraven actually looks better now that marines themselves are cheaper.

Impossible.
Heavy Support is for Thunderfire Cannons, we have Stormtalons as AA-flyers.
The problem is that Flyers don't have interceptor, that means they already fried a handful of bikers before you kill them.

Who ever thought it was a good idea to put a AP3-template with Torrent on a flyer? Really? Fire that guy!

The Grav weapons were made for defeating half of the current top tier, wraithknights, waveserpents, riptides, and broadsides are all highly threatened by grav guns.

In all it was a gun designed to dethrone the last two books, wave serpents are especially boned because it negates cover, the serpent shield, and kills with 2 6's

What they fail on is helldrakes, nightscythes and Deamons.

Which is why proper lists focus on agumenting grav guns with thunderfire, and AA.

As a tool against things it was made for grav is amazing. Waveserpent Wraithnight spam will have its day messed up royally against 5 grav gun bike units supported by thunderfire cannons.

To sum it up grav weapons are really that good, but only if you have the tools to deal with the other threats on the board.

The only really big question up in the air is mixed saves v.s. a grav gun, if it uses the closest model its going to be very easy to position drones/low save units in front. If it uses the majority save your good to go except when drones outnumber broadsides and riptides

Hrm now that I think about it the grav gun is amazing against eldar if they cannot get a cover save on the tank and they cannot take drones with thier MC, it is also very good against almost all other tanks and high armor units. We will see how it shakes out but it basically combines the tank abilities of a melta, with the ap2 spam of plasma while adding a 3rd shot, concussive, and it doesn't get hot.

I have not done the math, but the TL-bolter vs grav gun graph tells me something about centurions with hurricane bolters and grav cannon/amp. The two weapons will compliment each other by pretty much being useful vs whatever infantry target you are shooting at and supporting the weakness of the other weapon. The added bolterfire helping 5+'s where the grav guns fall off. This isn't taking the amp into effect which will greatly improve the power of the grav cannons.

I hope that was understood.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Tau allies.

A Missileside has some of the silliest dakka per unit values right?

Because the amount of S7 so much as one set of three can unleash is extrremely painful.

As long as it's not even considered an option on tac marines grav weapons seem competitive and balanced.

Bikes and centurions have TL bolters or hurricane bolters as back up against gribbles with a 5+ or worse armor save.

Grav will change the meta but not dominate the game. I see some winners and losers, but will mostly review the losers.

MC such as Tervigons, NDK, Wraith knights, and Riptides. They just can't go near grav weapons without getting splattered. Flying Circus chaos deamons tend to buy the 3+ armor save but are relatively safe as long as they don't land to assault or get grounded. The odd winner here is greater deamons like a GUO that don't have an armor save but can laugh off bolter shots with biomancy.

Wave serpents, Land raiders and other AV14 targets: Grav weapons can quickly strip HP, centurions can swat a 4HP target like a fly, and Wave Serpents,LRBT,Battlewagons are very vulnerable to krak grenade assaults if bikers with grav weapons immobilize them.

Has anyone taken a look on the grav pistol?

I was toying with the idea of giving one to my axe biker captain, which would end up netting him 5 AP 2 attacks on the charge + a single AP 2 shot prior to assaulting.

Is the gun really worth the cost though?

Thanks for the input everyone. I was thinking about grav cannons on centurions for the just in case people start spamming MC. They also would do well against Death wing and other terminator heavy armies. The point cost for such a unit is pretty steep though.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Has anyone taken a look on the grav pistol?
I was toying with the idea of giving one to my axe biker captain, which would end up netting him 5 AP 2 attacks on the charge + a single AP 2 shot prior to assaulting.
Is the gun really worth the cost though?

Naah..
I think the loss of 1 attack is worth the 2 extra shots at a longer range.

Has anyone looked at Legion of the Damned as a platform for Grav weapons? A 5 man squad with a grav gun and pistol can put out 4 grav shots for 155 points, and can take a multi melta or something as well. Can DS into range of what it wants to kill, and ignores cover for all targets.

Dundas wrote:
Has anyone looked at Legion of the Damned as a platform for Grav weapons? A 5 man squad with a grav gun and pistol can put out 4 grav shots for 155 points, and can take a multi melta or something as well. Can DS into range of what it wants to kill, and ignores cover for all targets.

The LotD cannot take grav guns.

Oh right, though they could take special weapons but see it's only specific ones. Anything to stop them taking a combi grav?

Yup, the lack of the option.
Only the Sgt can take a combi-weapon.

Dundas wrote:
Oh right, though they could take special weapons but see it's only specific ones. Anything to stop them taking a combi grav?

Only the fact that Combi-Melta or Combi-Plasma is better as it syncs up with the other weapons they can get. Other than that, they can still get Combi-Grav ifyou really want it.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You might as well ignore the 2 part of Salvo, as you will never see these weapons on non-Relentless models IMO.

As for its usefulness, unlike Plasma, it can't hurt you, and doesn't care about toughness. It is brutal against TEQ and MEQ, and still not bad at all against GEQ. It falls flat after that, but you should be taking it on Bikers or Centurions, so they have AP5 guns waiting to use also for that.

The main thing is that it is a decent counter to Riptides and a fantastic counter to Wave Serpents.

Don't think the Tau and Eldar players are stupid.
Centurions hoofing around with grav cannons are predictable. The same holds for Bikers but you're right they are a more serious threat since they are faster.

 Kain wrote:
A Missileside has some of the silliest dakka per unit values right?

Because the amount of S7 so much as one set of three can unleash is extrremely painful.

Is good dakka, no doubt. This is 3 broadsides with 3 missile drones.
GEQ : 72.15
MEQ : 21.88
TEQ : 12.14
That shreds GEQ.. Its hard hitting MEQ too. What makes it really good is that if you throw a buff commander in there you are ignoring cover and giving it tank hunter -- which means your ripping apart vehicles.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You might as well ignore the 2 part of Salvo, as you will never see these weapons on non-Relentless models IMO.

As for its usefulness, unlike Plasma, it can't hurt you, and doesn't care about toughness. It is brutal against TEQ and MEQ, and still not bad at all against GEQ. It falls flat after that, but you should be taking it on Bikers or Centurions, so they have AP5 guns waiting to use also for that.

The main thing is that it is a decent counter to Riptides and a fantastic counter to Wave Serpents.

Don't think the Tau and Eldar players are stupid.
Centurions hoofing around with grav cannons are predictable. The same holds for Bikers but you're right they are a more serious threat since they are faster.

I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean. 40k isn't a game of tricks, almost every move a player makes has a predictable end game. The idea of predictable units holds true to almost everything in the game as most units has a more designated role. And a good opponent isn't going to try take out your Grav Bikes on the virtue of where he thinks they are going, but based on where he thinks that they might go later. It's 40k 101, take out the threats. So predictability doesn't really factor in here. And there's not always something you can do about it; the enemy can only run so far.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Has anyone taken a look on the grav pistol?

I was toying with the idea of giving one to my axe biker captain, which would end up netting him 5 AP 2 attacks on the charge + a single AP 2 shot prior to assaulting.

Is the gun really worth the cost though?

I think the perk the pistol has is concussive. If you are a axe on your captain kinda guy, getting that pistol hit in as you charge will let you go simultaneously with your target, rather then having to weather the storm of hits before getting your own in.

If you think plasma pistols are worth it, I'd switch to grav for anyone using an I=1 weapon. I personally think plasma pistols are overpriced, so don't take them. YMMV.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You might as well ignore the 2 part of Salvo, as you will never see these weapons on non-Relentless models IMO.

As for its usefulness, unlike Plasma, it can't hurt you, and doesn't care about toughness. It is brutal against TEQ and MEQ, and still not bad at all against GEQ. It falls flat after that, but you should be taking it on Bikers or Centurions, so they have AP5 guns waiting to use also for that.

The main thing is that it is a decent counter to Riptides and a fantastic counter to Wave Serpents.

Don't think the Tau and Eldar players are stupid.
Centurions hoofing around with grav cannons are predictable. The same holds for Bikers but you're right they are a more serious threat since they are faster.

Droppod suicide squads are unavoidable unless he scatters like crazy. I doubt the bikers would ever reach Wraithknights or Riptides unless they werent toting around their table-range guns.
Problem with them is theyre a bit expensive lol. Cheapest way i see is to waste the Veteran squad, 210pts for 5 grav rifles and a dpod. That'll definitely shred a riptide and has a good chance at killing a wraithknight or at least bringing it down to 1-2 wounds left at the worst. But theyre as good as dead afterwords lol so i guess it depends on how much you hate those MCs.
EDIT: Also forgot the Riptide is going to have interceptor most likely. If you deploy close enough he cant pi plate you but he can still shoot 3 S7 Ap2 shots and whatever his offhand weapon is. He might wipe you out regardless.....now that i think about it bikes are better lol

What makes you think that a player with these units that are super-susceptible to that 18" range is going to deploy without bubble-wrap that stops you getting that close?

I'm not talking about total threat range, I'm saying, if I see you running an expensive command-bike squad, I'm going to take my kroot and keep you 18" from my riptides with a screen. Now, you might then use your double-tap bolters to destroy the kroot, but I don't see those bikes lasting through my turn.

Likewise, if you've got grav guns in a drop pod, it's not real hard to set up a deployment where you don't get to land that close to your best targets, and have to spend your alpha strike killing bubble-wrap.

 Redbeard wrote:
What makes you think that a player with these units that are super-susceptible to that 18" range is going to deploy without bubble-wrap that stops you getting that close?

I'm not talking about total threat range, I'm saying, if I see you running an expensive command-bike squad, I'm going to take my kroot and keep you 18" from my riptides with a screen. Now, you might then use your double-tap bolters to destroy the kroot, but I don't see those bikes lasting through my turn.

The problem is you are looking at this in a vacuum, like it is the Bikes versus your Riptide and Kroot, and that is all. But that's not how it will happen. What makes you think the Kroot are always going to be there. It is the same reaction every time a new counter comes out for a powerful unit; 'no that won't work because I'll bubble wrap it with my magical indestructable teleporting unit'.

Sure, if the Kroot survive they could bubble wrap, but then you wasted a scoring unit that will then surely die if the Marine players chooses too because you likely took them out of position to do so. A unit like Kroot is only good when it has cover, and you often won't be able to have your cake and eat it too. So if you want to trade a scoring unit for a Riptide, go ahead. And of course, this is all assuming they survive long enough to bubble wrap those Riptides, as with TFCs, Whirlwinds, Sternguard, etc. out there those Kroot will be lucky to last that long.

But it's a pointless exercise this, as every counter has a counter and we could go on and on all day; Grav Bikes beat Riptides, Kroot stop Grav Bikes, Whirlwinds kill Kroot, Broadsides kill Whirlwinds, Sternguard kill Broadsides, etc. The point to be had from this is just that; every counter has a counter itself, so dismissing it just for that is folly at best, because nothing in this game works all the time. This is why we actually play the game instead of just crunching numbers and shaking hands.

I'd be very surprised if Grav guns stay ignoring vehicle cover and invulns for long. They don't have ignores cover or any other mention of a rule that would bypass such things (infantry still get invulns for example) so I suspect it's just a case of GW forgetting what triggers a save and marine players looking to scrape up an advantage while it lasts.

That said they are still pretty good on bikes but awful on infantry platforms. Footsloggers are gonna want to stick with the classic specials while anyone with relentless rushes for Grav. They are a good counter to Wraithknights but most Riptides are gonna see you coming and god for a Nova boosted shield that will cause most of your hits to ping off.

Anything that can pod in with grav isn't worth the investment. combi gravs and grav rifles are salvo on a 18" range gun meaning they need to get within 9" the turn they land. If that's a riptide your hunting he is going to unload on you right out in the open with interceptor fire. That's if by some miracle you land and move within range for the reasons redbeard already stated. The best way to kill tau is to hunt the troops with your drop troops and bikes. If he can't score you'll probably win anyway.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

The problem is you are looking at this in a vacuum, like it is the Bikes versus your Riptide and Kroot, and that is all. But that's not how it will happen. What makes you think the Kroot are always going to be there. It is the same reaction every time a new counter comes out for a powerful unit; 'no that won't work because I'll bubble wrap it with my magical indestructable teleporting unit'.

I find it hard to imagine that the kroot will have somehow gone away before the Marine player's first movement phase.

Bikes need to advance on turn 1 in order to be in range to shoot on turn 2. If you're not doing that, then you're holding your bikes back, and the Tau player has a turn to shoot at those bikes. They cannot remove the kroot prior to that first move.

Likewise, the kroot will be there for the first wave of drop-pods. I don't see how that can be avoided. That means that the Marine player is going to either have to drop other pods on turn 1, holding their gravgun team for the second wave, or drop the grav guns outside the bubble wrap.

But it's a pointless exercise this, as every counter has a counter and we could go on and on all day;

That's handwaving away a legitimate concern. The point is that the grav gun is a short-ranged weapon, which impacts more than the threat range of the delivery system (which bikes and drop-pods largely mitigate), but also the ability to get in-range through obstacles. No one is denying that kroot die easily when you look their way, but you can't actually kill them until after your first drop-pod wave lands and your first movement phase is finished.

I would actually want you to put your kroot so far up front. Might be able to charge and get locked in combat. If they are that far in front where I cant shoot the riptide then nothing would get supporting overwatch.

 Redbeard wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

The problem is you are looking at this in a vacuum, like it is the Bikes versus your Riptide and Kroot, and that is all. But that's not how it will happen. What makes you think the Kroot are always going to be there. It is the same reaction every time a new counter comes out for a powerful unit; 'no that won't work because I'll bubble wrap it with my magical indestructable teleporting unit'.

I find it hard to imagine that the kroot will have somehow gone away before the Marine player's first movement phase.

Bikes need to advance on turn 1 in order to be in range to shoot on turn 2. If you're not doing that, then you're holding your bikes back, and the Tau player has a turn to shoot at those bikes. They cannot remove the kroot prior to that first move.

Likewise, the kroot will be there for the first wave of drop-pods. I don't see how that can be avoided. That means that the Marine player is going to either have to drop other pods on turn 1, holding their gravgun team for the second wave, or drop the grav guns outside the bubble wrap.

When did I say they would be gone before the Marine's first turn? is a counter no longer considered a worthy counter unless it deals with its quarry in turn 1 now? I can't see Grav ever getting to its target before turn 2, and that's fine. This is the case for many, many decent units in this game, and there are no complaints. Turn 2 in my experience at least is the turn of the game when the most destruction occurs as Night Fight is gone, most things are in range, and the reserves start showing up.

And yes this means the Tau player has a turn to shoot the Bikes, but you say it like having a turn to shoot anything is an auto-kill. You also say it like there is never any terrain to hide behind on the way. In a realistic setting, (a) there is terrain a plenty on a 40k table some apt deployment should see a safe enough crossing of the table, not that Bikes are fragile, and (b) there is going to be a whole army behind the Bikes so if the Tau are just going for the one squad, the Marines are already making an impression. Looks to me like you think people are expecting these counters we are discussing to work with a click of the fingers, but that is not the case.

But again this is why I said you shouldn't be looking at things in a vacuum. Leth's point above shows another variable as to why you shouldn't also.

As for the last point above, where did I say anything about Drop Pods?

 Redbeard wrote:

But it's a pointless exercise this, as every counter has a counter and we could go on and on all day;

That's handwaving away a legitimate concern. The point is that the grav gun is a short-ranged weapon, which impacts more than the threat range of the delivery system (which bikes and drop-pods largely mitigate), but also the ability to get in-range through obstacles. No one is denying that kroot die easily when you look their way, but you can't actually kill them until after your first drop-pod wave lands and your first movement phase is finished.

No, it's handwaving away a pointless pissing contest of 'well my unit will counter your unit' which doesn't benefit anyone. Discussing the pros and cons is fine but letting it devolve into a vacuum or a comparison where each new argument is just adding a new unit to the mix is pointless and not good discussion. If you want to partake in that, go ahead, I have no right to tell you otherwise, but I was trying to point out that I will not.

And once again, where did I say anything about Drop Pods? Most of your points above seem to be hinged on Drop Pods, not Bikes, yet I made no mention of Drop Pods whatsoever.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

And once again, where did I say anything about Drop Pods? Most of your points above seem to be hinged on Drop Pods, not Bikes, yet I made no mention of Drop Pods whatsoever.

Would you believe that this is a discussion forum, and that you're not the only person posting. Try re-reading the whole thread, and you'll see that my initial response was not directed to you, but to someone who was talking about drop pods.

I'm actually feeling good about grav guns on Tactical Squads. They seem like a great weapon for locking down midfield. With Thunderfire Cannons, Stormtalons, and large numbers of bolters in an army, I don't need to worry as much about taking down light infantry, and lascannons do a great job against vehicles. That leaves just armies with large numbers of 3+/2+ save guys, which grav guns are optimal against.

Don't forget that a grav weapon only needs to cause two immobilized results to cause a vehicle wreck. That second immobilization strips two hull points, which is good enough for most vehicles.

And grav weapons are certainly better against terminators and monstrous creatures than are plasma guns. And, at Ap2, they're not exactly BAD against everything else either. In any case, comparing grav and plasma weapons against guardsmen is silly. That's what you have all those bolters for. Plasma and grav weapons are for taking out the serious stuff.

As best I can tell, grav weapons make plasma weapons pointless except on T3 things you want to ID. Or, I guess, against really light vehicles. Probably a few other little things here and there as well, but really, whatever big, bad thing you're going to want to shoot at, you're probably wanting the grav gun for it.

 Ailaros wrote:
...Plasma and grav weapons are for taking out the serious stuff.

As best I can tell, grav weapons make plasma weapons pointless except on T3 things you want to ID. Or, I guess, against really light vehicles. Probably a few other little things here and there as well, but really, whatever big, bad thing you're going to want to shoot at, you're probably wanting the grav gun for it.

See, this is where I have an issue. Because, when I bring a gun to deal with my opponent's big bad thing, I want to know that it will deal with my opponent's big bad thing. And I think grav weapons have too many blind spots. Grav weapons are pointedly bad against Fateweaver. They're bad against Great Unclean Ones and Lords of Change, and Keepers of Secrets, and Daemon Princes who didn't buy armour. So, in a TAC list, I'm not convinced that their minor advantages against some targets is worth the significant drop against other targets. Plasma doesn't have these holes in its coverage.

 Redbeard wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
...Plasma and grav weapons are for taking out the serious stuff.

As best I can tell, grav weapons make plasma weapons pointless except on T3 things you want to ID. Or, I guess, against really light vehicles. Probably a few other little things here and there as well, but really, whatever big, bad thing you're going to want to shoot at, you're probably wanting the grav gun for it.

See, this is where I have an issue. Because, when I bring a gun to deal with my opponent's big bad thing, I want to know that it will deal with my opponent's big bad thing. And I think grav weapons have too many blind spots. Grav weapons are pointedly bad against Fateweaver. They're bad against Great Unclean Ones and Lords of Change, and Keepers of Secrets, and Daemon Princes who didn't buy armour. So, in a TAC list, I'm not convinced that their minor advantages against some targets is worth the significant drop against other targets. Plasma doesn't have these holes in its coverage.

I think this is the reason that you should have a variety of weapons throughout your force, and only have grav weapons on those platforms where they will be of most use. yes if the target lacks a decent armour save then grav weapons will be a poorer choice than melta and plasma in a lot of cases.
Grav weapons are excellent choices against TEQ, MC's with good armour like riptides, wraithlords, wraithknight, Nids, dreadknights, daemos and daemon princes with armour saves, as well as able to do all kinds of nastiness to skimmers and so forth.

By overloading on grav weapons, and not taking anything else, you leave yourself open to a bad matchup. a good TAC list will have a selection of weapons so when you need a weapon, you have it. As has been said in a few other threads, the best platform for grav guns is anything thats relentless like bikes, to make the most of the salvo rule. anything without relentless should take a different weapon like flamers, plasma and melta.