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I'm at a loss with what to do with my BTs since their fluff was ripped up and thrown out the window. I was fielding smaller crusade squads with scouts and tac armour, they were built with the BT upgrade sprues. I don't know whether to sell them or repaint into another chapter as this option may be a problem due to the upgrade parts defining them as BT and I have no SM parts.

What happened to their fluff? Why can't you use your crusader squads?

Yes the fluff got jacked...but the army overall got the update it needed to stay competitive. A supplement can fix the fluff and restore the chapter. There are a LOT of templar players. Enough that I see us easily getting a supplement.

As for your models...I would debate that of all the troop choices we have the very best one. The crusader squad is awesome. You can keep them small at 5 men with a heavy special and a combined and a power weapon. That's crazy. OR you can drop the heavy to take another unchallengeable power weapon and for free give all your models ccw for the extra attack.

That's in a small 5 man squad giving templars a super nasty compact ball of tac marine death. Then again...we can get our squads horde sized with 20 t4 models. For dirt cheap when compared to most things in the same codex.

Templars got their fluff a little ruffled...our chapter tactics are sub-par for a close combat army (challenges just are NOT a big enough part of the game to justify a CT) but we DID get access to the new models which fixes a LOT of our deficiencies... and to boot we have the most flexible unit in the codex, the crusader squad...it can do pretty much anything you want it too.

 Isean wrote:
Yes the fluff got jacked...but the army overall got the update it needed to stay competitive. A supplement can fix the fluff and restore the chapter. There are a LOT of templar players. Enough that I see us easily getting a supplement.

As for your models...I would debate that of all the troop choices we have the very best one. The crusader squad is awesome. You can keep them small at 5 men with a heavy special and a combined and a power weapon. That's crazy. OR you can drop the heavy to take another unchallengeable power weapon and for free give all your models ccw for the extra attack.

That's in a small 5 man squad giving templars a super nasty compact ball of tac marine death. Then again...we can get our squads horde sized with 20 t4 models. For dirt cheap when compared to most things in the same codex.

Templars got their fluff a little ruffled...our chapter tactics are sub-par for a close combat army (challenges just are NOT a big enough part of the game to justify a CT) but we DID get access to the new models which fixes a LOT of our deficiencies... and to boot we have the most flexible unit in the codex, the crusader squad...it can do pretty much anything you want it too.

They rewrote the entire structure of the Iron Hands in this codex because of a single-line mistake in the previous codex, I wouldn't get your hopes up about a supplement fixing yours, if anything GW will double-down and give you back Librarians or somesuch nonsense(this will be Great News and a cause of celebration among the psyker-loving White Knights chapter, as the BT will be renamed ).

While the psyker fluff change pissed me off, it DOES explain how a "fleet based" super sized chapter doesn't implode on itself for employing all those psykers.

But damn those dirty librarians. The Emperor HIMSELF would have to come back to life and directly order the Templars to implement them before it would happen naturally. (That is how I choose to interpret the new fluff)

Your crusader squads got better, why not keep running them?

 juraigamer wrote:
Your crusader squads got better, why not keep running them?

For serious, you've got the models, you've got the rules, play with them. Who gives a gak if they changed the fluff? Fluff is what you make of it. It doesn't effect how they play on the tabletop.

Yeah, you can just ignore the new fluff, use the models you have, and run a pretty damn good army. Then when you want fluff just look at the old books. The crusader squads are definitely awesome.

Chuck your crusaders into a crusaders so you can still crusade

You don't have to bring a lib or anything.

 Brother SRM wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Your crusader squads got better, why not keep running them?

For serious, you've got the models, you've got the rules, play with them. Who gives a gak if they changed the fluff? Fluff is what you make of it. It doesn't effect how they play on the tabletop.

This. BT has the best troop unit in the codex. Use the Crusaders to your advantage and integrate some new stuff you have access to..

 Ironwill13791 wrote:
Yeah, you can just ignore the new fluff, use the models you have, and run a pretty damn good army. Then when you want fluff just look at the old books. The crusader squads are definitely awesome.

People play the game for different reason and derive their enjoyment from that. When people start this hobby they should take an army that they want to play for enjoyment not because you can make the latest OP list from it. It's a large upfront investment on time and money to even field an army. Lots of people play this game for cool models and cool fluff and back story. It's easy to understand why players would be less inclined to play an army who's back story just got shredded. Imagine if how BA players would feel if their fluff got changed to explain how their primarch is really Khorn and that's where they get the black rage from,

I didnt think the fluff change was that bad, plus they need a reason to be able to travel, those arent craftworlds they are rolling around on. Not to mention the bit about seeing the emperors light isnt half bad as a justification. While on the subject of the big E, whom the Templars just love to death, do they forget he was the most powerful human pysker in existence?

Kevv6 wrote:
I'm at a loss with what to do with my BTs since their fluff was ripped up and thrown out the window. I was fielding smaller crusade squads with scouts and tac armour, they were built with the BT upgrade sprues. I don't know whether to sell them or repaint into another chapter as this option may be a problem due to the upgrade parts defining them as BT and I have no SM parts.

Is your army invalidated by the rules in anyway? If not then who cares about the fluff? The fluff is just there to give things depth. If you can still use your army you can use whatever fluff in your head that you want. You can even tell people that my force was based on the earlier fluff and as long as it is still a legal list it won't matter to anyone that you play.

Why would you even consider throwing aside an army you obvious have serious interest in?

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

Kevv6 wrote:
I'm at a loss with what to do with my BTs since their fluff was ripped up and thrown out the window. I was fielding smaller crusade squads with scouts and tac armour, they were built with the BT upgrade sprues. I don't know whether to sell them or repaint into another chapter as this option may be a problem due to the upgrade parts defining them as BT and I have no SM parts.

Is your army invalidated by the rules in anyway? If not then who cares about the fluff?

Why would you even consider throwing aside an army you obvious have serious interest in?

Skriker

Lots of people play this game for cool models and cool fluff and back story.

Ok, fluff aside, what about the sword brethren squads and weapon choices for the crusader squads, haven't these changed too?

Would many people/tournaments care if you ran your black templars with other chapter tactics? I wouldn't.

Why do people keep saying Black Templar love Librarians when they can't even take them do to Abhor the Witch rule?

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Isean wrote:
Yes the fluff got jacked...but the army overall got the update it needed to stay competitive. A supplement can fix the fluff and restore the chapter. There are a LOT of templar players. Enough that I see us easily getting a supplement.

As for your models...I would debate that of all the troop choices we have the very best one. The crusader squad is awesome. You can keep them small at 5 men with a heavy special and a combined and a power weapon. That's crazy. OR you can drop the heavy to take another unchallengeable power weapon and for free give all your models ccw for the extra attack.

That's in a small 5 man squad giving templars a super nasty compact ball of tac marine death. Then again...we can get our squads horde sized with 20 t4 models. For dirt cheap when compared to most things in the same codex.

Templars got their fluff a little ruffled...our chapter tactics are sub-par for a close combat army (challenges just are NOT a big enough part of the game to justify a CT) but we DID get access to the new models which fixes a LOT of our deficiencies... and to boot we have the most flexible unit in the codex, the crusader squad...it can do pretty much anything you want it too.

They rewrote the entire structure of the Iron Hands in this codex because of a single-line mistake in the previous codex, I wouldn't get your hopes up about a supplement fixing yours, if anything GW will double-down and give you back Librarians or somesuch nonsense(this will be Great News and a cause of celebration among the psyker-loving White Knights chapter, as the BT will be renamed ).

This.
Supplements are not meant to FIX anything.

The number of players will change over time. It is "allies" edition now and the BT don't look like an ally anyone is looking for. Some want marines to provide ps..psy....filthy .witches, BT wont. Some aim to fill weaknesses in CC or shooting, BT aren't gifted with HtH boni as member of "vanilla" SM and Shooty isn't the strong part of a "vanilla" dex either. I'd guess we will see less BT players.

Their fluff is also tied to events already handled:
- Marines vs Orks > Apoc Warzone Armageddon, done.
- Marines vs necrons > UM Apoc warzone Damnos, done.
Maybe marines + SoB is left for the BT...but the girls are far off...

I am keeping mine. ETERNAL Crusade FTW.
just not vanilla flavored crusadin..so Models stay as is.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Why do people keep saying Black Templar love Librarians when they can't even take them do to Abhor the Witch rule?

The new fluff says they love the ordained and sanctioned psykers as blessed by the Emperor himself.

Theirs just had a case of head banger after the whole Cacodominus thing or something equally stupid.

Makes sense the BT would at the very least accept if not be thankful for the psykers they need to get around the galaxy with.

Still can't libbys though, so I don't see what the problem is. Fluff changes, this change seems to actually make sense but still fit with the BTs 'no libbies or unnecessary psykers' doctrine.

I say press on OP, there are worse reasons to give up on an army.

Ignore the new fluff, bring your old codex around with you if you need fluff at the gaming table. I'm a BT player and I don't understand the rage over the new fluff. Was the hatred of psykers really what sold their fluff for you? Not the ETERNAL CRUSADE?

Rustican wrote:

 Ironwill13791 wrote:
Yeah, you can just ignore the new fluff, use the models you have, and run a pretty damn good army. Then when you want fluff just look at the old books. The crusader squads are definitely awesome.

People play the game for different reason and derive their enjoyment from that. When people start this hobby they should take an army that they want to play for enjoyment not because you can make the latest OP list from it. It's a large upfront investment on time and money to even field an army. Lots of people play this game for cool models and cool fluff and back story. It's easy to understand why players would be less inclined to play an army who's back story just got shredded. Imagine if how BA players would feel if their fluff got changed to explain how their primarch is really Khorn and that's where they get the black rage from,

I don't see how my comments warranted a lecture on how people enjoy the game. I was just commenting on how the army got stronger on the table and that the fluff in the older books is still just as valid as what is in the newer book. And don't use an extreme to try and prove your point, the BT fluff wasn't ruined that badly. I feel that whole BA comment was out of line.

As someone else pointed out, the "abhor the witch" fluff was pretty ridiculous, so personally I'm happy it seems to be being retired. BT operate in a world where psykers are essential to the operation of a chapter of Space Marines. Having a background where the BT hate psykers is just stupid.

If that fluff was to make any sense they should be travelling through space without jumping through the warp and navigating manually. At which point they should rebrand themselves the "Amish Marines" and have done with it.

 EmilCrane wrote:
Ignore the new fluff, bring your old codex around with you if you need fluff at the gaming table. I'm a BT player and I don't understand the rage over the new fluff. Was the hatred of psykers really what sold their fluff for you? Not the ETERNAL CRUSADE?

The eternal crusade and overzealousness is what got me to like them.

 Kain wrote:
The new fluff says they love the ordained and sanctioned psykers as blessed by the Emperor himself.

Haha, maybe they were forced to do that?
If the Glorious Leader tells you to like them, you like them or you die.

 Ironwill13791 wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
Ignore the new fluff, bring your old codex around with you if you need fluff at the gaming table. I'm a BT player and I don't understand the rage over the new fluff. Was the hatred of psykers really what sold their fluff for you? Not the ETERNAL CRUSADE?

The eternal crusade and overzealousness is what got me to like them.

Exactly, when you saw them you went "Overzealous Crusade marines, these guys are the best!"

Not, "They hate psykers, these guys are the best!"

Kevv6 wrote:
Ok, fluff aside, what about the sword brethren squads and weapon choices for the crusader squads, haven't these changed too?

Sword Brethren squads were just Codex: SM veterans and terminators with 1 point crusader seals. So now you basically have Sword Brethren Terminators, Sword Brethren Sternguard, and Sword Brethren Vanguard. Sword Brethren were never really a unique unit.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Kevv6 wrote:
Ok, fluff aside, what about the sword brethren squads and weapon choices for the crusader squads, haven't these changed too?

Sword Brethren squads were just Codex: SM veterans and terminators with 1 point crusader seals. So now you basically have Sword Brethren Terminators, Sword Brethren Sternguard, and Sword Brethren Vanguard. Sword Brethren were never really a unique unit.

I think everyone thought they were different because of the name and the veteran skills, even though that's basically the same thing 4th edition C:SM had too.

 Isean wrote:
While the psyker fluff change pissed me off, it DOES explain how a "fleet based" super sized chapter doesn't implode on itself for employing all those psykers.

But damn those dirty librarians. The Emperor HIMSELF would have to come back to life and directly order the Templars to implement them before it would happen naturally. (That is how I choose to interpret the new fluff)

Wait so what is the new fluff about BT?

Yeah, the fluff update actually makes sense. They are a fleet-based chapter, they need Psykers to survive and not drift about in the Warp. So being cool with sanctioned psykers (especially Navigators who have a fairly in-depth initiation ritual that exposes their soul to the Emp's psychic presence) is a fairly sensible change. Congrats, join the club of chapters who received a minor background change this edition. The BT still hate unsanctioned psykers and don't make personal use Librarians.

As for the rules, there really isn't anything that didn't get better with the update (well, okay, you guys finally ate the update that stopped min-maxed terminator spam). Crusader Squads got boosted, you veterans (save the tactical terminators) got better in every way (seriously, Sword Brethren were arse, I never saw my BT-playing friend use 'em) and you even have a full range of units now instead of a bunch of silly restrictions (like no Whirlwinds).

Honestly, seeing the update you guys got kind of made me wish they had folded the Dark Angels in this edition. Alas, at least it isn't as bad a change as 4E DA to 5E Space Marines. Maybe next edition.