Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I actually quite like the Black Templars, and am thinking of painting up a small detachment of them (or at least "Crusading Marines") to run alongside my Dark Angels successor.

Apart from Librarians you have access to every Marine option, so you can have a biker Captain and bike riding "knights", you may have a Master of the Forge who allows you to take more dreadnoughts. You also have the Crusader squad which is the only Marine unit able to min/max with a special and heavy at five men.

Your army is solid, and now it has been rolled into the Marine 'dex you won't be left waiting fifty years for Codex updates.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
Yeah, the fluff update actually makes sense. They are a fleet-based chapter, they need Psykers to survive and not drift about in the Warp. So being cool with sanctioned psykers (especially Navigators who have a fairly in-depth initiation ritual that exposes their soul to the Emp's psychic presence) is a fairly sensible change. Congrats, join the club of chapters who received a minor background change this edition. The BT still hate unsanctioned psykers and don't make personal use Librarians.

As for the rules, there really isn't anything that didn't get better with the update (well, okay, you guys finally ate the update that stopped min-maxed terminator spam). Crusader Squads got boosted, you veterans (save the tactical terminators) got better in every way (seriously, Sword Brethren were arse, I never saw my BT-playing friend use 'em) and you even have a full range of units now instead of a bunch of silly restrictions (like no Whirlwinds).

Honestly, seeing the update you guys got kind of made me wish they had folded the Dark Angels in this edition. Alas, at least it isn't as bad a change as 4E DA to 5E Space Marines. Maybe next edition.

The fluff did a 180 on how the Templars viewed psyker. In the oldfluff they relied on the astropaths as a necessity but wouldn't fight along side any psyker because they were always in danger of being corrupted by the Warp. The exception was the Grey Knights who were the only psykers they would ally with.

Now the Templars love their fellow psyker because they commune with the Emperor who they now believe is God. They don't like heretic psykers though. It doesn't explain why the Templars are still restricted from taking Librarians at this point. You're figure they would be falling over themselves to be fellow psyers like the emperor.

As for the game play rules, the Templar chapter traits are the weakest of the bunch. All of them are situational so you never have a consistent bonus like the other chapters do or have an emergency button like the Ultra Marines.

Accept any challenge makes them better in challenges is decent but only useful in close combat if you get there. Deny the the Witch is good if you're righting psykers and useless if you're not. It will only help if you if the psychic attacks actually target you though. Won't help if the psyker is using it to buff themselves to kill you easier, like iron arm or force weapon insta death. BT also get crusader which is a reroll on the run die. On average this add 1" to your run. woo.... Crusader also gives you a +D3 on the sweeping advance if you actually win the assault. woo....

The Templars were suppose to be a close combat army which is why the they had restrictions on dev squads and whirlwinds before. The they could have gotten access to long range shooting with the use of allies if they wanted. They have gained nothing to help them get into close combat or or excel in it.

The Templars can field a solid army though, because the SM codex is solid but it makes them less unique and less interesting in the end.

Rustican wrote:
Lots of people play this game for cool models and cool fluff and back story.

And your point is? Fluff is fluff. It has no bearing on the table top. As long as the rules for the army don't change the fluff you support your force with doesn't matter in the least. I have been playing chaos pretty much since the beginning. In that time chaos fluff has been watered down, made boring and rather homogenized as it goes. I hate that and pretty much completely ignore it all. I still play with the approach that khorne and slaanesh or nurgle and tzeentch forces would never work together ever and build my forces accordingly. As long as my armies are valid based on the rules I can use whatever "cool fluff" I want and be just as happy as ever. Stopped playing chaos in WFB because the rules changed drastically and my large chaos army became two separate, but incomplete armies that I had no interest in rebuilding into full armies again with the split of beastment and chaos warriors into separate chaos tracks. From a fluff approach I could still imagine my army being a combined force, but according to the rules I couldn't do it anymore so dropped them. Want to play ultramarines because you like the color and appearance, but dislike the uptight background? Then change it to have them coming from a planet of giant smurfs or something else that does make it interesting for you as a player. Same works for Black Templars? Prefer the old fluff, then stick with it and enjoy your army just the same as always. Ignore the change to them liking sanctioned psykers. Never take them in your force as allies or anything else. It is simple to keep and stick with the old fluff.

This is my point: Rules matter if they change, but fluff can be whatever you want it to be and dropping an army because of a "fluff" change is silly in the extreme.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

Rustican wrote:
Lots of people play this game for cool models and cool fluff and back story.

And your point is? Fluff is fluff. It has no bearing on the table top. As long as the rules for the army don't change the fluff you support your force with doesn't matter in the least. I have been playing chaos pretty much since the beginning. In that time chaos fluff has been watered down, made boring and rather homogenized as it goes. I hate that and pretty much completely ignore it all. I still play with the approach that khorne and slaanesh or nurgle and tzeentch forces would never work together ever and build my forces accordingly. As long as my armies are valid based on the rules I can use whatever "cool fluff" I want and be just as happy as ever. Stopped playing chaos in WFB because the rules changed drastically and my large chaos army became two separate, but incomplete armies that I had no interest in rebuilding into full armies again with the split of beastment and chaos warriors into separate chaos tracks. From a fluff approach I could still imagine my army being a combined force, but according to the rules I couldn't do it anymore so dropped them. Want to play ultramarines because you like the color and appearance, but dislike the uptight background? Then change it to have them coming from a planet of giant smurfs or something else that does make it interesting for you as a player. Same works for Black Templars? Prefer the old fluff, then stick with it and enjoy your army just the same as always. Ignore the change to them liking sanctioned psykers. Never take them in your force as allies or anything else. It is simple to keep and stick with the old fluff.

This is my point: Rules matter if they change, but fluff can be whatever you want it to be and dropping an army because of a "fluff" change is silly in the extreme.

Skriker

Fluff should have bearing on table top. What would be the point of creating a army back ground like the Dark Angel Death wing and then not having rules for them to take terminators? You first come up with an army concept then design the rules and play style around that. If fluff doesn't matter at all then just have all the models be the same, have all the same stats and let the players pretend all they want. You'll have perfect balance and everyone has access to everything. Done.

Rustican wrote:


Now the Templars love their fellow psyker because they commune with the Emperor who they now believe is God.

Where are you getting that?

Maybe make a personal errata that says:

"Errata

Page 50-53 replace it with Codex: Black Templars

Page 78 Ignore Designer's Note "

Bam? Even made it pink like they would.

If BT shouldn't have forced challenges then why should all the chaos legions?
I can understand the pain of losing your codex but if you see yourself as hamstrung by your new one, look at csm. Many of the new rules for SM CSM as been screaming for for years.
And the heldrake, as people as the superduperott op monster? I would rather have chapter tactics because it fits out fluff just as much as yours.

Fluff was also what got me into the game. Us CSM players got an entire Black Crusade deleted and our advantage taken away among others.
We lost all our legions because we are "just" incoherent war bands with a fetish for antique weaponry anyways, right?

 kronk wrote:

Rustican wrote:


Now the Templars love their fellow psyker because they commune with the Emperor who they now believe is God.

Where are you getting that?

Its the typical internet over-exaggeration of the fluff alteration in the new codex. The new codex says they hold special reverence for Astropaths, for they have communed with the Emperor (which makes sense), and have similar feelings for Navigators (who they rely on to get around). Nowhere does it say the love and adore psykers, it just clears up that they don't hate all psykers, just rogue, chaos, and alien ones. The simplistic hatred never made any sense, given their view of the Emperor, they really dig the Grey Knights, and they are a crusading chapter.

Also, it makes an attempt at explaining why Templars don't have Librarians, but its unsure as to the specific reasons why. Some say its because of the Emperor's decree (Nikea) they are still following, others say its a genetic issue.

Rustican wrote:
Fluff should have bearing on table top. What would be the point of creating a army back ground like the Dark Angel Death wing and then not having rules for them to take terminators? You first come up with an army concept then design the rules and play style around that. If fluff doesn't matter at all then just have all the models be the same, have all the same stats and let the players pretend all they want. You'll have perfect balance and everyone has access to everything. Done.

Your extreme example of all models being the same and having the same stats and pretending that they are different is just silly. Where you lost it is that once the army exists all that matters to specifically play the game are the actual rules. You can take any codex, cut out all the fluff, all the modeling pics and all the stories and only leave the rules for the army and you can still build any army from what is left and use it on the table, know how it works, how the units function and what their skills and weapons are. Take out all the rules and everything else but the fluff and you have some pretty stories that have no bearing on actually playing the game. THIS is the distrinction and the point you are completely missing here. If someone can come up with all the cool background and fluff for their own chapter of marines, their own renegades chapter or their own IG regiment, then it should hardly be a stretch of anyone's imagination to be able to ignore the small change in the Black Templars fluff that has them dealing with psykers OK. Perfectly fine to continue playing the army and ignore that little fluff change without any impact whatsoever especially given that the biggest unique unit configuration of the BTs, the crusader squad, still exists. Those crusader squads are really what makes a Black Templars army play differently than other space marine chapters on the table and not specifically the fluff.

Skriker

Just sell em. The update is bringing a lot of crap noobs with psyker allies and weird BT successor paintjobs and other crap. Check out B&C if you dont believe me. Being an old hardliner isnt really worth it anymore. Work on another army.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Just sell em. The update is bringing a lot of crap noobs with psyker allies and weird BT successor paintjobs and other crap. Check out B&C if you dont believe me. Being an old hardliner isnt really worth it anymore. Work on another army.

Wow..... Way to go...

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Just sell em. The update is bringing a lot of crap noobs with psyker allies and weird BT successor paintjobs and other crap. Check out B&C if you dont believe me. Being an old hardliner isnt really worth it anymore. Work on another army.

Selling them is a bit weak. Real hardcore old timers chuck 'em on the fire.

My 1500 in Orks arent going to wipe the dust off themselves. Imstill buying BT its just doesnt have the excitement it used to. Its like collecting Star Wars AFTER the prequels.

 kronk wrote:

Rustican wrote:


Now the Templars love their fellow psyker because they commune with the Emperor who they now believe is God.

Where are you getting that?

It's one of the weird things about GW players, how much they're willing to invent just to have something to complain about.

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Rustican wrote:


Now the Templars love their fellow psyker because they commune with the Emperor who they now believe is God.

Where are you getting that?

It's one of the weird things about GW players, how much they're willing to invent just to have something to complain about.

Thats more or less paraphrased directly from the new codex.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Its like collecting Star Wars AFTER the prequels.

Now THAT is funny!

 d3m01iti0n wrote:

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Rustican wrote:


Now the Templars love their fellow psyker because they commune with the Emperor who they now believe is God.

Where are you getting that?

It's one of the weird things about GW players, how much they're willing to invent just to have something to complain about.

Thats more or less paraphrased directly from the new codex.

Not really, I mean I guess you could somehow ignore the fact that they as a Legion wouldn't be able to actually function without certain psykers at all, and literally they would never be able to get anywhere without navigators. Only by a stretch of the imagination could it be paraphrased in that manner.

I haven't read the old or new black templar 'fluff' but you still have your old codex right? Can't you just take what you like from that codex and that's who your black Templars really are, they're the guys who stayed back in the old codex (story wise) and then just use the new space marine codex to legitimize your minis on the tabletop.

Or say that they're dressed up as black templar but are really ______________. (insert whatever chapter you want)
Or something.

We pay these guys our life savings, but It's still just a fun game, or hobby, or lifestyle, or all three. So take what you want out of it. My two cents

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Rustican wrote:


Now the Templars love their fellow psyker because they commune with the Emperor who they now believe is God.

Where are you getting that?

It's one of the weird things about GW players, how much they're willing to invent just to have something to complain about.

Thats more or less paraphrased directly from the new codex.

Not really, I mean I guess you could somehow ignore the fact that they as a Legion wouldn't be able to actually function without certain psykers at all, and literally they would never be able to get anywhere without navigators. Only by a stretch of the imagination could it be paraphrased in that manner.

In the old fluff, the only psykers the Templars would ally with were the Grey Knights because they have never fallen to Chaos. Fighting along side a psyker is different from utilizing astropaths or navigators who can be constantly be supervised in their limited role for supporting a cursader fleet.

The new fluff does away with that but now you need to come up with a new convenient reason for why the Black Templars, who now think psykers are the awesome because they bask in the Emperor's light don't have any psykers at all. GW comes up with some vague excuse with out bothering to put any more effort into it. It's a lazy attempt at fluff and shows how much effort they put into rolling the BTs in the the SM codex. You'd think with the amount we pay for the privilege of playing this game, GW would at least get someone who actually cares about the lore and the players who waited years for a decent update.

Aaaaaaaaand more perfectly paraphrased fluff, directly from the new Space Marine codex, which you may have seen on shelves last month.

. It's a lazy attempt at fluff and shows how much effort they put into rolling the BTs in the the SM codex. You'd think with the amount we pay for the privilege of playing this game, GW would at least get someone who actually cares about the lore and the players who waited years for a decent update.

Depends, do you want good fluff with poor rules instead? You could trade with chaos, we get incredible fluff, but nothing we get matches anything within fluff well enough.

Kevv6 wrote:
I'm at a loss with what to do with my BTs since their fluff was ripped up and thrown out the window. I was fielding smaller crusade squads with scouts and tac armour, they were built with the BT upgrade sprues. I don't know whether to sell them or repaint into another chapter as this option may be a problem due to the upgrade parts defining them as BT and I have no SM parts.

You do realize that you don't have to use a librarian if you don't want to, right? No one is forcing you to violate the old storyline, right?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Kevv6 wrote:
I'm at a loss with what to do with my BTs since their fluff was ripped up and thrown out the window. I was fielding smaller crusade squads with scouts and tac armour, they were built with the BT upgrade sprues. I don't know whether to sell them or repaint into another chapter as this option may be a problem due to the upgrade parts defining them as BT and I have no SM parts.

You do realize that you don't have to use a librarian if you don't want to, right? No one is forcing you to violate the old storyline, right?

They actually can't use a librarian in their primary deployment with the Abhor the Witch rule.

Here's the thing that makes no sense to me.

Black Templars abhor witches. That's their second Big Thing after continuing the Great Crusade. That's fine.

But... a witch is a psyker who does not cleave to the Emperor's grace. So why would the Templars have a problem with properly soul-bound psykers in the first place?

Anyway, to those claiming that the Emperor is a psyker: Heresy, I say! The Emperor is a GOD!

Besides, they haven't exactly fallen in love with psykers. They just pay great respect their navigators, which actually are able to see the emperor's light on terra across the entire galaxy. That's how navigation in 40k works. If you stop raging for a second and think about it, being able to see the emperor while being on a crusade for him would be a great honor for any templar.

You guys realise that you don't have to ally with any psykers?

Also, it was always absurd that they couldn't. If Death Guard going to ravage a planet the Black Templars are defending and an Imperial Fists contingent containing an Librarian offers help, what are the Black Templars going to do?

They'd accept their help and keep calling him a witch.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Just sell em. The update is bringing a lot of crap noobs with psyker allies and weird BT successor paintjobs and other crap. Check out B&C if you dont believe me. Being an old hardliner isnt really worth it anymore. Work on another army.

Only in death does duty end, and the army isn't quite dead yet.

I guess some people can't divorce themselves from a change in the background. From what I read, they just softened the hate to massive distrust.

Gamewise, the Templars lost some stuff (Righteous Zeal, Blessed Hull, POTMS on anything) and gained some stuff (free grenades and searchlights, sgts, air and heavy support). I think they are just as nasty now as they have been. I think the OP is being a bit of a Chicken Little....

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I guess some people can't divorce themselves from a change in the background. From what I read, they just softened the hate to massive distrust.

Gamewise, the Templars lost some stuff (Righteous Zeal, Blessed Hull, POTMS on anything) and gained some stuff (free grenades and searchlights, sgts, air and heavy support). I think they are just as nasty now as they have been. I think the OP is being a bit of a Chicken Little....

Actually those first three things were pretty much just cut from 4th's library of extensive customization.