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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I guess some people can't divorce themselves from a change in the background. From what I read, they just softened the hate to massive distrust.

Gamewise, the Templars lost some stuff (Righteous Zeal, Blessed Hull, POTMS on anything) and gained some stuff (free grenades and searchlights, sgts, air and heavy support). I think they are just as nasty now as they have been. I think the OP is being a bit of a Chicken Little....

Actually those first three things were pretty much just cut from 4th's library of extensive customization.

Righteous Zeal certainly wasn't. The thing is though, almost all the things BT gained are shooty. There's nothing at all in the book to help them get into CC other than (possibly) bikes as troops. The melee prowess was reduced from the 4th edition Codex. It's the same thing that happened to Khorne Berzerkers.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I guess some people can't divorce themselves from a change in the background. From what I read, they just softened the hate to massive distrust.

Gamewise, the Templars lost some stuff (Righteous Zeal, Blessed Hull, POTMS on anything) and gained some stuff (free grenades and searchlights, sgts, air and heavy support). I think they are just as nasty now as they have been. I think the OP is being a bit of a Chicken Little....

Actually those first three things were pretty much just cut from 4th's library of extensive customization.

Righteous Zeal certainly wasn't. The thing is though, almost all the things BT gained are shooty. There's nothing at all in the book to help them get into CC other than (possibly) bikes as troops. The melee prowess was reduced from the 4th edition Codex. It's the same thing that happened to Khorne Berzerkers.

Yes, welcome to 6th edition without an assault transport, not exactly unusual at this rate considering CSM and Eldar. Though Righteous Zeal was as much a curse as it was a blessing considering how often I pulled black templars off objectives for last minute wins.

You've certainly gained better honour guard and sword brothers (Veterans) however, seeing as vanguard are slightly better then the old ones now, there is better melee but the issue is as with most 6th edition assault the lack of transportation.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I guess some people can't divorce themselves from a change in the background. From what I read, they just softened the hate to massive distrust.

Gamewise, the Templars lost some stuff (Righteous Zeal, Blessed Hull, POTMS on anything) and gained some stuff (free grenades and searchlights, sgts, air and heavy support). I think they are just as nasty now as they have been. I think the OP is being a bit of a Chicken Little....

Actually those first three things were pretty much just cut from 4th's library of extensive customization.

Righteous Zeal certainly wasn't. The thing is though, almost all the things BT gained are shooty. There's nothing at all in the book to help them get into CC other than (possibly) bikes as troops. The melee prowess was reduced from the 4th edition Codex. It's the same thing that happened to Khorne Berzerkers.

Yes, welcome to 6th edition without an assault transport, not exactly unusual at this rate considering CSM and Eldar. Though Righteous Zeal was as much a curse as it was a blessing considering how often I pulled black templars off objectives for last minute wins.

You've certainly gained better honour guard and sword brothers (Veterans) however, seeing as vanguard are slightly better then the old ones now, there is better melee but the issue is as with most 6th edition assault the lack of transportation.

That's the thing though; with the demotion of Chaplains, the loss of Righteous Zeal and the loss of Rage much of the oomph of CC of the Black Templars was lost, and it now takes longer than it used to to get into close combat. Daemons, Tyranids and CSM still have ways around this (FMCs and/or hordes in the two first cases, Juggerlords and infiltration in the third). Admittedly Space Marines have Drop Pods, which is the saving grace of melee for the new Codex, but Drop Pod insertion for CC isn't exactly brilliant either. It's not so much melee armies as MEQ melee armies (including CSM) that suffer in 6th edition; the other melee armies are either tough enough, fast enough or both to reach CC either intact enough or soon enough. Power Armour just doesn't cut it.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I guess some people can't divorce themselves from a change in the background. From what I read, they just softened the hate to massive distrust.

Gamewise, the Templars lost some stuff (Righteous Zeal, Blessed Hull, POTMS on anything) and gained some stuff (free grenades and searchlights, sgts, air and heavy support). I think they are just as nasty now as they have been. I think the OP is being a bit of a Chicken Little....

Actually those first three things were pretty much just cut from 4th's library of extensive customization.

Righteous Zeal certainly wasn't. The thing is though, almost all the things BT gained are shooty. There's nothing at all in the book to help them get into CC other than (possibly) bikes as troops. The melee prowess was reduced from the 4th edition Codex. It's the same thing that happened to Khorne Berzerkers.

Yes, welcome to 6th edition without an assault transport, not exactly unusual at this rate considering CSM and Eldar. Though Righteous Zeal was as much a curse as it was a blessing considering how often I pulled black templars off objectives for last minute wins.

You've certainly gained better honour guard and sword brothers (Veterans) however, seeing as vanguard are slightly better then the old ones now, there is better melee but the issue is as with most 6th edition assault the lack of transportation.

That's the thing though; with the demotion of Chaplains, the loss of Righteous Zeal and the loss of Rage much of the oomph of CC of the Black Templars was lost, and it now takes longer than it used to to get into close combat. Daemons, Tyranids and CSM still have ways around this (FMCs and/or hordes in the two first cases, Juggerlords and infiltration in the third). Admittedly Space Marines have Drop Pods, which is the saving grace of melee for the new Codex, but Drop Pod insertion for CC isn't exactly brilliant either. It's not so much melee armies as MEQ melee armies (including CSM) that suffer in 6th edition; the other melee armies are either tough enough, fast enough or both to reach CC either intact enough or soon enough. Power Armour just doesn't cut it.

Pretty much, I hope your supplement fixes those issues just like I'd hope for it to fix for everyone else.

I quite like the fact you can have ally psykers. I can field Black Templars with some Blood Raven allies.

Put the fluff in to the game? Move them up separate paths? make sure they keep their distance from each other?

It is what you make it. I play for a fluffy story, not to win.

You could also count the psyker as desperate ally

The allied Librarian thing's a bit silly to get worked up over. It's like how Space Wolves can ally with Dark Angels - sure it might be to my benefit to do so, but it's against my own take on the fluff to do so, so I refuse to. (Obviously Wolves will work with DA, but I come from 3rd edition where we got Preferred Enemy versus them haha)

Its about as okay as SM teaming up with Tau. Fluff is what makes armies distinct; otherwise there would just be a rulebook and generic models.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
otherwise there would just be a rulebook and generic models.

As much as it saddens me to say, some people wouldn't be bothered if this were the case, going off some of the discussions/attitudes I've seen...

Personal opinion: Black Templars are the best of all Chapters, not the White Scars. +1 jink can go suck it, give me my best SM troop choice in the codex and 4+ Heavy Support options which none of the other chapters can field.

As a templar player, I can have 3 Vindicators and multiple LRCs on top of that. I can have 6x 5 Las/plas space marine squads as my Troops; re-rolling ALL failed to-hits in challenges can often be the difference between getting that slay the warlord point or giving it to the enemy; and I'll take a 33.33% chance to negate an enemy psychic power cast on any of my squads over a 16.66% chance any day.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Righteous Zeal certainly wasn't. The thing is though, almost all the things BT gained are shooty. There's nothing at all in the book to help them get into CC other than (possibly) bikes as troops. The melee prowess was reduced from the 4th edition Codex. It's the same thing that happened to Khorne Berzerkers.

I can't hear you over the sound of dual power weapon wielding Crusader squads that are no longer 19 points a marine for being equipped with frag and krak nades Also, drop pods and LRCs are a way to get into CC by turn 2. And let me say how happy I am to now be able to field Vanguard vets. That's some nasty cc-power right there. Everyone can take storm shields, everyone can take power weapons, everyone can move 12" and re-roll charge distance....you will get your close combat.

I'd continue using them if you enjoy playing them!

After all, the fluff is all still in the old codex and it's really upto the player him(or her) self to stay true to whatever version of the background they like best.

My black templars arent even painted back. I went for a crusades colour scheme. But the fluff fitted what I wanted to do so I went with that force!

 Anfauglir wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
otherwise there would just be a rulebook and generic models.

As much as it saddens me to say, some people wouldn't be bothered if this were the case, going off some of the discussions/attitudes I've seen...

Yes as GW craps over its own fluff on regular basis I sometimes would just prefer general ideas, space facist here, pyromaniac nuns there, big merciless alien threat, madmen eating their own bowels etc. This way there would be no more dissapointments like Newcrons or Tau and Space Marines alliances.

The stories are not that good anyway, it's visual mood and general idea that would suffice imo.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Personal opinion: Black Templars are the best of all Chapters, not the White Scars. +1 jink can go suck it, give me my best SM troop choice in the codex and 4+ Heavy Support options which none of the other chapters can field.

As a templar player, I can have 3 Vindicators and multiple LRCs on top of that. I can have 6x 5 Las/plas space marine squads as my Troops; re-rolling ALL failed to-hits in challenges can often be the difference between getting that slay the warlord point or giving it to the enemy; and I'll take a 33.33% chance to negate an enemy psychic power cast on any of my squads over a 16.66% chance any day.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Righteous Zeal certainly wasn't. The thing is though, almost all the things BT gained are shooty. There's nothing at all in the book to help them get into CC other than (possibly) bikes as troops. The melee prowess was reduced from the 4th edition Codex. It's the same thing that happened to Khorne Berzerkers.

I can't hear you over the sound of dual power weapon wielding Crusader squads that are no longer 19 points a marine for being equipped with frag and krak nades Also, drop pods and LRCs are a way to get into CC by turn 2. And let me say how happy I am to now be able to field Vanguard vets. That's some nasty cc-power right there. Everyone can take storm shields, everyone can take power weapons, everyone can move 12" and re-roll charge distance....you will get your close combat.

A Vanguard Veteran with Storm Shield, Jump Pack and a Power Weapon is 47 points and dies to bolter fire the same as a 14 point marine. If you think that is a solution to getting into close combat then I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree. Drop Pods have promise, but if the only way to get into CC is by using LRCs then we're in the same deep gak as CSMs.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Personal opinion: Black Templars are the best of all Chapters, not the White Scars. +1 jink can go suck it, give me my best SM troop choice in the codex and 4+ Heavy Support options which none of the other chapters can field.

As a templar player, I can have 3 Vindicators and multiple LRCs on top of that. I can have 6x 5 Las/plas space marine squads as my Troops; re-rolling ALL failed to-hits in challenges can often be the difference between getting that slay the warlord point or giving it to the enemy; and I'll take a 33.33% chance to negate an enemy psychic power cast on any of my squads over a 16.66% chance any day.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Righteous Zeal certainly wasn't. The thing is though, almost all the things BT gained are shooty. There's nothing at all in the book to help them get into CC other than (possibly) bikes as troops. The melee prowess was reduced from the 4th edition Codex. It's the same thing that happened to Khorne Berzerkers.

I can't hear you over the sound of dual power weapon wielding Crusader squads that are no longer 19 points a marine for being equipped with frag and krak nades Also, drop pods and LRCs are a way to get into CC by turn 2. And let me say how happy I am to now be able to field Vanguard vets. That's some nasty cc-power right there. Everyone can take storm shields, everyone can take power weapons, everyone can move 12" and re-roll charge distance....you will get your close combat.

A Vanguard Veteran with Storm Shield, Jump Pack and a Power Weapon is 47 points and dies to bolter fire the same as a 14 point marine. If you think that is a solution to getting into close combat then I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree. Drop Pods have promise, but if the only way to get into CC is by using LRCs then we're in the same deep gak as CSMs.

It's just the anti-CC edition, just be glad you have the firepower again to deal with range, like the 5th edition black templar dex lists.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Personal opinion: Black Templars are the best of all Chapters, not the White Scars. +1 jink can go suck it, give me my best SM troop choice in the codex and 4+ Heavy Support options which none of the other chapters can field.

As a templar player, I can have 3 Vindicators and multiple LRCs on top of that. I can have 6x 5 Las/plas space marine squads as my Troops; re-rolling ALL failed to-hits in challenges can often be the difference between getting that slay the warlord point or giving it to the enemy; and I'll take a 33.33% chance to negate an enemy psychic power cast on any of my squads over a 16.66% chance any day.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Righteous Zeal certainly wasn't. The thing is though, almost all the things BT gained are shooty. There's nothing at all in the book to help them get into CC other than (possibly) bikes as troops. The melee prowess was reduced from the 4th edition Codex. It's the same thing that happened to Khorne Berzerkers.

I can't hear you over the sound of dual power weapon wielding Crusader squads that are no longer 19 points a marine for being equipped with frag and krak nades Also, drop pods and LRCs are a way to get into CC by turn 2. And let me say how happy I am to now be able to field Vanguard vets. That's some nasty cc-power right there. Everyone can take storm shields, everyone can take power weapons, everyone can move 12" and re-roll charge distance....you will get your close combat.

A Vanguard Veteran with Storm Shield, Jump Pack and a Power Weapon is 47 points and dies to bolter fire the same as a 14 point marine. If you think that is a solution to getting into close combat then I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree. Drop Pods have promise, but if the only way to get into CC is by using LRCs then we're in the same deep gak as CSMs.

It's just the anti-CC edition, just be glad you have the firepower again to deal with range, like the 5th edition black templar dex lists.

I'd argue that it's not anti-CC as much as it's anti-MEQ CC. Juggerlords, Daemons and 'Nids still do CC just fine, as they're fast enough to get into combat and hit like a wrecking ball. Normal MEQ who have to ride in a Land Raider, on the other hand...

So does the new C:SM specifically say the Black Templars can't have a Librarian? Or is it just the long standing fluffs position?

 Zakiriel wrote:
So does the new C:SM specifically say the Black Templars can't have a Librarian? Or is it just the long standing fluffs position?

Yes, it does. p.165, Librarian entry.

I was thinking it would be cool to have a BT Chaplin who could do acts of faith kinda like the old sisters dex had so as to make up for the lack of Librarians?

 Zakiriel wrote:
I was thinking it would be cool to have a BT Chaplin who could do acts of faith kinda like the old sisters dex had so as to make up for the lack of Librarians?

That's another point: why does GW hate Chaplains?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Zakiriel wrote:
I was thinking it would be cool to have a BT Chaplin who could do acts of faith kinda like the old sisters dex had so as to make up for the lack of Librarians?

That's another point: why does GW hate Chaplains?

Because thy dont believe in god hehe

Yeah i miss my old master of sanctity. Oh well. Heres hoping we get a supplement that gives us the MoS back. In anycase im still happy we got the update, screwed fluff or not, I'll just ignore the parts that bugs me.

Whats wrong with using LRC's to run melee templars? You get a tank thats pretty resistant and full to the brim of angry teutonic templars who want to eat your face.

Without the support of Hellbrecht or a Chaplain, they simply aren't angry enough.

Its the who structure thats been changed, no sword brethren etc etc, they are just another generic SM army now, when I started 40k again I may as well just picked ultramarines instead of a unique chapter

Kevv6 wrote:
Its the who structure thats been changed, no sword brethren etc etc, they are just another generic SM army now, when I started 40k again I may as well just picked ultramarines instead of a unique chapter

Sword Brethren were just Veterans under another name. Just use Vanguard Assault, pretty much what they were before (except now cheaper)

 EmilCrane wrote:
Whats wrong with using LRC's to run melee templars? You get a tank thats pretty resistant and full to the brim of angry teutonic templars who want to eat your face.

The down side to a LRC is cost. For large games they will work fine. For smaller/medium sized games, they'll take up a chunk of your points forcing you to cut back on everything else. There's no replacement for a LRC for lower point games. You either ride in rhinos with paper thin armor or foot slog. You'll get shot to death either way though.

 EmilCrane wrote:
Whats wrong with using LRC's to run melee templars? You get a tank thats pretty resistant and full to the brim of angry teutonic templars who want to eat your face.

If you want to have enough Marines to do damage you're looking at close to 400 points invested in one place, and even then it's just a bunch of S4 Ap- attacks on the charge. I still maintain that the old Crusader Squads were better than the new ones, because Rage and being able to run up the board faster more than makes up for grenades and a cheaper cost.

I suppose the issue is that if you kit out a Crusader Squad for CC it's okayish at best at CC and horrible at shooting stuff. Look at Grey Hunters for an example ofwhat I mean: they're moderately choppy AND moderately shooty, but not the best at either, whereas Crusader Squads are moderately choppy and horribad at shooting if kitted out for CC. They really need something to make them better at CC other than getting an extra Power Weapon, seeing as they all give up their shooting outside of 12" (assuming you're not taking a heavy or a plasma gun because why would you on a melee unit?).

Another alternative to the above, or one that can work in concert with it, is the same issue that Khorne Berzerkers and most CC units in the CSM Codex has: speed (and even then, there's Huron, as Ailaros has demonstrated). If you hit okay-ish and you're slow as gak to get into CC you're not going to be killing much anytime soon. Juggerlords are good because they're both fast and punch anyone in the face, FMCs are fast and hit hard, Flesh Hounds are fast etc. Crusader Squads aren't very fast and are jumppack-less Assault Marines on the charge now. In the old Codex we had Preferred Enemy (and later Rage) to increase the oomph of our basic troops in CC, now they're just meh.

Everything is not doom and darkness though, Honour Guard are looking really promising for their cost and scoring Bike Squads accompanying a Character seem interesting as well. The issue with Honour Guard, though, is (yet again) delivery. Drop Pod and hope for the best seems to be the most reliable IMO. I'm looking forward to trying out Vanguard Veterans as well, ~150 points gets you 5 with 2 Power X or Lightning Claws and they might just be manouvr... manevou... mobile enough to put some early pressure on the enemy, alongside Drop Pods.

Here's something interesting about a large, footslogging Templar squad:

If you know your opponent won't be fielding Battle Cannons, Ion Accelerators and such, space them out so they're more survivable against blasts, and then kit them all out with Bolters. Most of your cc-killyness comes from the dual power weps (6-7 power attacks total), so why bother with cc-weapons that are S4 AP - and only useful once you reach combat?

7 bolter-initiates and 10 Neophytes advancing 6" a turn will make for 17 S4 shots that you can start pumping at the enemy target squad from turn 1 itself. Remember this is 6th, so your Bolters arent reduced to 12" the moment you start moving.

This way, by turn 3 you might have already pumped enough firepower into an enemy infantry squad to make them start failing LD checks and are free to assault another squad instead of assaulting this squad with all your cc-weapons, obliterating them the turn you charged them, and then be sitting ducks during the enemy turn.

This is very much an edition of anti-MEQ CC, or at least, the death of the mechanized assault.

Good 6E assault units generally are units with innate speed and ideally toughness, things like Bikes, Wraiths, Beasts, etc. These units still work very well indeed. But the days of marines hopping out of rhinos into combat or footslogging it across the board to run into CC with routine success are gone until some future edition.

Take heart, the BT's still ended up with more than the Chaos Legions did

 Sir Arun wrote:
Here's something interesting about a large, footslogging Templar squad:

If you know your opponent won't be fielding Battle Cannons, Ion Accelerators and such, space them out so they're more survivable against blasts, and then kit them all out with Bolters. Most of your cc-killyness comes from the dual power weps and the sarge's power wep anyway (9-10 power attacks total), so why bother with cc-weapons that are S4 AP - and only useful once you reach combat?

7 bolter-initiates and 10 Neophytes advancing 6" a turn will make for 17 S4 shots that you can start pumping at the enemy target squad from turn 1 itself. Remember this is 6th, so your Bolters arent reduced to 12" the moment you start moving.

This way, by turn 3 you might have already pumped enough firepower into an enemy infantry squad to make them start failing LD checks and are free to assault another squad instead of assaulting this squad with all your cc-weapons, obliterating them the turn you charged them, and then be sitting ducks during the enemy turn.

Crusader Squads only get 2 Power Weapons, 1 hidden and 1 on the SB.