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For one, a truly competitive gamer shouldn't care about comp. Comp just changes what the best army build is, it doesn't change the fact that there is a best army build. The main issue of comp is when a player only owns x units that are normally allowed, but because of comp changes/restrictions now either has an illegal army or needs to buy and paint models they wouldn't otherwise want if not to play in the comp'ed game. For people with limited selections a badly designed comp event can be very exclusionary. A well designed comp event instead encourages variety while not excluding existing armies.

However, for this event, by restricting the comp to units the player owns, all this event does is increase variety in a fun social way.

Keep in mind the most important part is the first part of this system... imagine if you get your players together to hang out and draw names out of a hat, where each player in turn slams their opponent with a funny restriction for the group to laugh about, just to then have the same thing happen to them.

Its the 40k equivalent of a roast, and probably best enjoyed with beers. This sounds like a BLAST if your group can get together and have a good time 'roasting' each other during the draft. In fact, the hat drawing process with units getting picked and what not could probably be more fun than any traditional 40k event. For example, if I am the legacy tyranid player in a group who now plays a ton of gargoyles, but when the new book came out everyone remembers I was all over the pyrovore, it would be quite funny if when my name was drawn they chose pyrovores and gargoyles, reminding everyone that since I used to think pyrovores were so good its time I played them again.

If someone posts on the Internet it's fair game to criticism - we don't have to like it. This just seems really dumb and I think it will be a huge flop. Sounds a poor attempt to drum up more business.

dlight wrote:
The whole thing sounds stupid.

The game doesn't need comp. That's what codexes and FAQs are for.

I Agree. I wouldn't waste my time or money on this kind of crap.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If someone posts on the Internet it's fair game to criticism - we don't have to like it. This just seems really dumb and I think it will be a huge flop. Sounds a poor attempt to drum up more business.

Especially when posting it in the forum dedicated to discussing tournaments.

I like the idea. I'm not a competetive player normally and I have to admit, I'm tired of always seeing each army look exactly the same. Every optimum build list, means that it doesn't matter if you play tau/eldar player 1 or player 2. The game is basically the same. I'm all for playing an event which encourages new builds, or units I'm not used to seeing making the field.

I play IG, want to limit my tanks? Go ahead, limit my vendettas? Sure why not? Rough riders? I love them. Penal legion? Why not they're spunky!

A good player can/will play with the toys he has and be happy for it and enjoy the time. It's one event, you can always go back to your tricked out assembly line list for the next event. And who knows, maybe you'll discover you actually enjoy a unit you'd always overlooked?

Clicked the post and was expecting a different topic. I am disappoint....

I like how the proponents of the system are discrediting all criticism by turning all opposed into straw men who whine about needing their Riptides and Heldrakes, as well as, apparently, saying that things must have a direct impact on us or else all criticism is unjustified. You know, like how you need to live in a country in order to be shocked at its oppressive laws.

As said previously, it was posted in a forum dedicated to the discussion of such topics, and now, apparently discussion is not allowed? The implication here is that Dakkaites are swarming this place and protesting its rules! This was brought here, not the other way around. Discussing and commenting on the handicap is what this thread is for.

To quote a renowned mystic, "It's not about winning, it's about fun!", which is entirely true. I do support the encouragement of doing what you normally would not - however, this system is not doing it well.

Again, I play Chaos. I don't have three Heldrakes and don't intend to ever have that many (also, the people I play with are extremely tolerant of any and all proxies - including the use of a Grey Knight Paladin riding a My Little Pony as 'Chaos Lord on Juggernaut of Khorne with Axe of Blind Fury'). I have exactly one, which I have not yet used. However, it is included in my list. I bought it before I even knew it was a 'omg power' unit. I bought it because it was a new unit to my army, and because it is a daemon robot space dragon. I bought this model, and I want to use it in my next game. This does not mean I am a hardcore Chaos powerplayer who depends entirely on Heldrakes to win games. I don't run optimal lists. Hell, my list for my next game is 1000pt and includes a Land Raider, Forge Fiend, Heldrake, and Terminators - because I recently bought these models and wish to use them; even though I am extremely likely to lose, I think it'll be fun.

Like I said, variation is fine. It's not about optimum builds.

Also, I like how "the local players enjoy it, so therefore the people on Dakka who dislike it are silly and dumb", because different people having different opinions is a wholly alien concept.

It's not about optimisation or power play. It is about handing control of my list to someone else. What if I want to run a lot of Chaos Terminators in a suboptimal list, for fun? Besides, not only are the other players removing things they have an arbitrary "OMG OVERPOWERED" reaction to, they're not doing it in the spirit of fun, they're doing it to snipe other players' lists. In essence, the system that is supposedly trying to promote variation is actually just including a different layer of optimisation and silliness. I really like how Nobz are included but Tyranids are exempt because their 'omg autowin button!!!' is both HQ and Troops.

As for "not wanting to play with models you spent money and time on is silly!" as an argument - that is not it. I don't have any Chosen, but proxying is allowed, and any power armour could be used for that purpose. Take your Land Raiders. They could transport the Terminators you can't take! How about Daemon Princes? It's okay, proxy your Carnifex!

Also, what's the point in faction ban? 'You can't play Black Legion, so proxy your Black Legion as... Alpha Legion! Let's pretend that your black models are blue!'?

What would be much better would be switching armies, or having unknown or random objectives. Perhaps, since we are apparently so fixated on Heldrakes and Riptides, we could limit them (not remove, because seriously, they aren't as powerful as they're being made out to be) to 'suboptimal' loadouts - e.g. no baleflamers, or one per detachment only.

Finally, if your local meta is really so plagued with the insane amount of powerplay that is being implied, it needs more than this to cure.

Orock wrote:
So aside from coming up with some unique scenarios at my store, they are also imposing a handicap system. Everyone who enters puts their name and army (even specific faction imperial fists for space marines in my case) then another player draws your name from a hat, and puts an army restriction on you, no units whatsoever of what they picked allowed, cannot pick troops or HQ. And then they impose a unit you HAVE to take (aside from what you write down that you do not own) its not specific, like you cant say dreadnaught with 2 twin linked heavy bolters for example. If you pick dreadnaught, they can take whatever kind they want, contemptor, ironclad, venerable, regular ect. I had devastators restricted to me (BOOOO) and have to take terminators, im guessing because he thought they would be a point sink, and he saw I don't own any drop pods.

Anyway I am planning on running a min 5 man TH/SS group with Lysander deep striking hopeing to at least be a good distraction. I will have scouts so can at least use teleport homers. What do you recommend to support them, since im looking at 505 points of my 1500 tied up right there. I was thinking scouts, land speeder storms, an ironclad, thunderfire cannon, whirlwind, a 3 man bike squad with grav guns, and a bunch of tacs, maybe sternguard, or even add a stormtalon for some anti air.

P.S all 3 chaos players got their hellturkeys banned. I found that pretty amusing. At least I wont die to super flamers every round, so there is at least that silver lining.

Quoting OP because they didn't once ask anyone to whine or defend the comp. They were asking on what they should run in the tourney.

To actually go on topic (possibly the first person to do so in the thread), you could try a fast moving army - something like bikes, scouts and LSS, some ML/Las dreads for long range support - have to admit I'm not an expert on 6thMarines. Just remember to throw the death ball of terminators in the right direction and you should be fine.

I am a long time proponent of soft comp systems, but this system suffers from one major flaw that many comp systems do. Never tell someone what they can't play, but rather reward people for breaking the mold and not taking the super optimized choice at every turn. This is basically a bad version of the Highlander format I used to play in the Midwest (there can be only one) that discourages spamming the same unit. That's about all the bad or good I can say about the system, on its face.

As to what to run, well this kind of handicap system screams for Deathwing, but assuming you are committed to vanilla marines, Liquidjoshi has a good option.

You could also just bring one LRC mounted term deathstar to cause carnage in the middle of the table and back it up with spammed vanilla tacs to monopolize bolter drill as much as you can. These days, most people do not prepare for LRC delivery system armies because everyone is convinced they suck and you can exploit other people's limited options by building an army around this carnage. While a LRC Hamminator bus might cost a third of your army, I am willing to bet it will command the full attention of your enemies.

This is not a practical system. That's why I don't think most people would enjoy it. Basically a stranger can tell me that I can't use my favorite toys. Why am I playing this game?

Wow...First if you don't like the setup, no one forcing you to play. But, alot seem to be missing the whole point. It's not to try to play your, IG tank list with out tanks, but to play a IG list with out tanks. It is a chance to try some thing new, where everyone has to try something different and for the store to make some money as people buy some new stuff, for a new list.

For a one-off game between friends who know it's coming, at a local FLGS it isn't anything to butthurt about.

Presumably if you find the idea of one tournament being like this offensive you could just , you know, not go. Odds are everyone screaming about it wouldnt be attending anyway

I would second the fast force to offset the termies.

 liquidjoshi wrote:

Orock wrote:
So aside from coming up with some unique scenarios at my store, they are also imposing a handicap system. Everyone who enters puts their name and army (even specific faction imperial fists for space marines in my case) then another player draws your name from a hat, and puts an army restriction on you, no units whatsoever of what they picked allowed, cannot pick troops or HQ. And then they impose a unit you HAVE to take (aside from what you write down that you do not own) its not specific, like you cant say dreadnaught with 2 twin linked heavy bolters for example. If you pick dreadnaught, they can take whatever kind they want, contemptor, ironclad, venerable, regular ect. I had devastators restricted to me (BOOOO) and have to take terminators, im guessing because he thought they would be a point sink, and he saw I don't own any drop pods.

Anyway I am planning on running a min 5 man TH/SS group with Lysander deep striking hopeing to at least be a good distraction. I will have scouts so can at least use teleport homers. What do you recommend to support them, since im looking at 505 points of my 1500 tied up right there. I was thinking scouts, land speeder storms, an ironclad, thunderfire cannon, whirlwind, a 3 man bike squad with grav guns, and a bunch of tacs, maybe sternguard, or even add a stormtalon for some anti air.

P.S all 3 chaos players got their hellturkeys banned. I found that pretty amusing. At least I wont die to super flamers every round, so there is at least that silver lining.

Quoting OP because they didn't once ask anyone to whine or defend the comp. They were asking on what they should run in the tourney.

Well, if he/she wants tactical advice, maybe post in the tactics board? This entire board is dedicated to discussing tournaments, not helping people write lists for badly comped tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Noir wrote:
Wow...First if you don't like the setup, no one forcing you to play. But, alot seem to be missing the whole point. It's not to try to play your, IG tank list with out tanks, but to play a IG list with out tanks. It is a chance to try some thing new, where everyone has to try something different and for the store to make some money as people buy some new stuff, for a new list.

... so now you are saying I need to buy a new list to play in this tournament? An IG list without tanks plays very different and has a completely different model requirement than an IG mech list. If I can't take russes and don't have access to copious amounts of artillery, then I am SOL, because I simply don't own or have the drive to own 200 infantry models. Not to mention having said models painted for a tournament.

People are welcome to crap all over the idea or like it or something similar. I will be posting results after Saturday. Ill try and see if I can write down what everyone was running, and see if in fact it crippled armies, or just came off as a fun event, but not a mainstream thing. And nobody signed up that has sisters. In fact, I have never ever seen sisters played there in 5 years, and that is with over 20 regulars, and a bunch of people that show up for the occasional real tourney.

The entrys are at 15 atm, so it should be interesting, maybe a 4 round.

Orock wrote:
So aside from coming up with some unique scenarios at my store, they are also imposing a handicap system. Everyone who enters puts their name and army (even specific faction imperial fists for space marines in my case) then another player draws your name from a hat, and puts an army restriction on you, no units whatsoever of what they picked allowed, cannot pick troops or HQ. And then they impose a unit you HAVE to take (aside from what you write down that you do not own) its not specific, like you cant say dreadnaught with 2 twin linked heavy bolters for example. If you pick dreadnaught, they can take whatever kind they want, contemptor, ironclad, venerable, regular ect. I had devastators restricted to me (BOOOO) and have to take terminators, im guessing because he thought they would be a point sink, and he saw I don't own any drop pods.

Anyway I am planning on running a min 5 man TH/SS group with Lysander deep striking hopeing to at least be a good distraction. I will have scouts so can at least use teleport homers. What do you recommend to support them, since im looking at 505 points of my 1500 tied up right there. I was thinking scouts, land speeder storms, an ironclad, thunderfire cannon, whirlwind, a 3 man bike squad with grav guns, and a bunch of tacs, maybe sternguard, or even add a stormtalon for some anti air.

P.S all 3 chaos players got their hellturkeys banned. I found that pretty amusing. At least I wont die to super flamers every round, so there is at least that silver lining.

So what happens if they choose something you can take as troops. IE im playing blood angels and they ban Sanguinary gaurd. but i can take them as troops?

 Lemartes12 wrote:

Orock wrote:
So aside from coming up with some unique scenarios at my store, they are also imposing a handicap system. Everyone who enters puts their name and army (even specific faction imperial fists for space marines in my case) then another player draws your name from a hat, and puts an army restriction on you, no units whatsoever of what they picked allowed, cannot pick troops or HQ. And then they impose a unit you HAVE to take (aside from what you write down that you do not own) its not specific, like you cant say dreadnaught with 2 twin linked heavy bolters for example. If you pick dreadnaught, they can take whatever kind they want, contemptor, ironclad, venerable, regular ect. I had devastators restricted to me (BOOOO) and have to take terminators, im guessing because he thought they would be a point sink, and he saw I don't own any drop pods.

Anyway I am planning on running a min 5 man TH/SS group with Lysander deep striking hopeing to at least be a good distraction. I will have scouts so can at least use teleport homers. What do you recommend to support them, since im looking at 505 points of my 1500 tied up right there. I was thinking scouts, land speeder storms, an ironclad, thunderfire cannon, whirlwind, a 3 man bike squad with grav guns, and a bunch of tacs, maybe sternguard, or even add a stormtalon for some anti air.

P.S all 3 chaos players got their hellturkeys banned. I found that pretty amusing. At least I wont die to super flamers every round, so there is at least that silver lining.

So what happens if they choose something you can take as troops. IE im playing blood angels and they ban Sanguinary gaurd. but i can take them as troops?

If it can be taken as troops it can't be banned. If limited by leader choice ala war boss making nobs troops its limited to the amount allowed by the special rules. Two war bosses? Two nobs as troops allowed. things made just scoring like stern guard from Pedro are free to ban though.

Phazael wrote:Never tell someone what they can't play, but rather reward people for breaking the mold and not taking the super optimized choice at every turn.

This, so much.

Dozer Blades wrote:This is not a practical system. That's why I don't think most people would enjoy it. Basically a stranger can tell me that I can't use my favorite toys. Why am I playing this game?

Orock wrote:crap all over the idea.

Because that's what criticism is?

Orock wrote:sisters

I only mentioned Sisters because they are a terrible army. It was in reference to the implication that Nobz need banning, or that a tournament without Nobz would be a good thing. Orkz are among the last armies to deserve a nerf of any kind.

Orock wrote:Ill try and see if I can write down what everyone was running, and see if in fact it crippled armies, or just came off as a fun event, but not a mainstream thing.

It being enjoyed by a small group does not invalidate all criticism of it, and nor does it being "not a mainstream thing". Subjectivity exists. We are not saying that none of the players will enjoy the tournament. We are saying that we, personally, would not. Saying that you like or dislike something doesn't at all imply that other people aren't allowed to think differently about it.

Ascalam wrote:For a one-off game between friends who know it's coming, at a local FLGS it isn't anything to butthurt about.

Presumably if you find the idea of one tournament being like this offensive you could just , you know, not go. Odds are everyone screaming about it wouldnt be attending anyway

Yes, because obviously we need to go to the tournament in order to criticise the system. If I were to describe - on the Internet, on a site about wargaming - a really interesting system in my own FLGS, would that mean that only those people who have intent to actually go there are allowed to comment on it, and only if their comments are positive? Disagreeing with the system is not being "butthurt". If I were to describe - on the Internet, on a site about wargaming - a game in which a friend took 3 Heldrakes and an allied Riptide and decimated my entire army in two turns, would it be "butthurt" to dislike the situation? Hardly. Would the only two people allowed to comment on the situation be me and the aforementioned friend? No.

So, where is all this implication that we're not allowed an opinion coming from? You don't have to be a woman to support womens' rights, or gay to support gay marriage. And yet, any criticism of this system is met with 'lawl you need ur heldraek' or 'you can't talk, you're not playing the system!'. It's bizarre.

EDIT: Speaking of games between friends, I once played with a homebrew'd Tyranid codex that allowed me to field Lictors in every Force Organisation slot. It was for fun, and it was fun (also, I lost). This is not equal to me being forced to play an all-Lictor army. I imagine that this would not be so fun.

Of course you are allowed your opinion, as am I.

My point was that the vitriol level towards this one-off local flgs custom rule is riding excessively high. Some posters seem to be taking the very idea of this rule a touch too personally, as if it is offensive to them to even consider it.

Where did i say 'you are not allowed an opinion?'

Quote me, please, so i can see for myself. I'm not seeing it.

I did say that if you don't like this type of custom tournament you need not go, and that it's not anything to get overly worked up over, but that's about it.

The guy is bringing up a new idea that his local FLGS is planning on running as a one-off event. He asks what we would suggest for his army given the restrictions this one off event is imposing.

Practically everyone who answers then rips the idea a new one, with varying levels of vitriol, despite the fact they will in all likelyhood never be attending the event or any other that uses that ruleset, instead of considering the idea as a challenge to try new units or suggesting a list/build that works with the limits the OP is under.

Fair enough. If you don't like it that's your opinion. Doesn't really answer the OP's question on what to bring, and the event will happen anyway regardless of this discussion. The OP didn't invent the system, he is just playing in an event that is using it.








Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S. All lictor FOC sounds awesome, as long as their is cover enough involved. Cityfight would be fun with that list.

**edit for clarity**

I think it's a good idea for a flgs.

It teaches players to play without a crutch unit which will help some players become better players. It's like a practice game of chess played without a players favorite piece. It really can help a player to become better with the rest of his pieces.

It dusts off shelved units

I don't see the need for so much drama

It's a flgs not a gt

If the inability to run a single fa/el/hs option completely cripples your ability to win then what's going to happen if that unit is lost early in a game?

First place: orks! 3 battlewagon list with some loota support. one unit had bunch of burnas with mek with kff, one had warboss, nob and some boyz, the other was also full o boyz. Mostly ran the 3 side by side when could, with a trukk on either side to absorb side shots.

2nd place, nids! was a doom list and the guy who restricted him chose venomthropes. Guess he really hated 5+ cover saves. I don't think his flyrant died all tourney.

3rd place, Tau! The codex really is probably the most choice rich one out. Even missing the dreaded riptides, he managed to 3 crisis team his way to a win, with a leader to protect his missilesides, and his pathfinders for markerlights. The tau player that I restricted pathfinders for came in I believe 6th. He had no skyrays, so only had some markers on his leaders drones.

4th place, imperial fists. Since devastators were denied to me, I switched to a heavy sternguard list. Ran pedro for my leader, and he rolled around in a redeemer with the terminators. I had fun, but the terminators never really earned their points back, even a game where I deep struck them behind enemy lines. He shot them to crap, I only lost one termie, but then I assaulted with them and lost 3 more to the whole 4 saves I had to make before they got to swing. Seeing 3 ones come up on a 45 point model assault really depresses you. The one game I did win (other 2 were tied) they actually never made it to combat, the tau just jumped away. But the threat of them hearded him toward my other stuff. Still probably wont take again until the next edition, assuming they are less terribad.

As for what the top 4 were required to take. Orks had to take flash gits (he said they came in handy a couple times with ap 3.) Nids had to take pyrovores ( he said he hadent taken them in 6th yet, and they were the surprise of the night, nobody expected much from them, but they actually cleared off 2 objectives for him) Tau had to take piranha (he only had 2, but he said he actually liked them, and was considering getting at least 3 more for a full squad, and that the free drones were pretty impressive for the base piranha cost.) And I had to take terminators.

The only other one I remember was the necron. He has a ton of necron stuff. And although he couldn't use the crossant of doom, and had to use the tomb guard things or whatever they were called, his annihilation barge spam might have won it all for him, but he had to leave after the 2nd game. Utterly tabled his other 2 opponents.

Hmm, the idea doesn't sound so bad in actuality, The opponent can only choose one of your units and then you adjust. It's the same rules across the board no big deal seems like a fair restriction on all players.

Thanks for the results, it sounded like a really fun tourney

Text removed.,

Reds8n

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For Sister the choice to ban would obviously be the Excorcist and force them to take Repentia. There is no way to overcome this handicap. As such there would be no reason for someone to ever play sisters in this tourney.

"Oh, you play Sisters? Well, you can't take any Battle Sister squads. What's that, you don't have any Troops Choices? Then you can't play!"

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Discussing and commenting on the handicap is what this thread is for.

This is absolutely not what the thread is for, the thread is for discussing tactics and builds for the day, not whether or not the event is worth attending

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Also, what's the point in faction ban? 'You can't play Black Legion, so proxy your Black Legion as... Alpha Legion! Let's pretend that your black models are blue!'?

Won't lie, this made me laugh... not exactly sure what it's referring to though as I didn't see this mentioned in the thread, but I will mention that it does seem kind of stupid to only be able to force players to pick models that they can own, but then they can go and proxy a bunch of stuff they don't own anyway... if I want to see someone have to deal with a helbrute on his team I should be able to do that, especially if he is just going to be proxying a bunch of stuff anyway.

 Thortek wrote:
I wouldn't waste my time or money on this kind of crap.

Yes don't waste your $0 entry fee attending, that money is much better spent splurging in the free catalog section




This clearly wasn't about pushing new rules forth, that obviously aren't tailored or tested to improve the game. This was about trying something new, being able to destabilize established local table champs for while still being able to play 40k with your army of choice. Yes you might have to build a completely new lis (out of the models you own), or lose a crazy amount of synergy for your build - so you should be more focused on which unit you are going to pick to do that to the next guy. It's a bit of variety, nobody expects it to be balanced, and if you are the guy who only has a SoB army: well maybe you should just sit this weeks tourney out if you aren't up for a very challenging meta, go catch a matinee or something. But if you didn't enjoy a bit of a challenge, you probably wouldn't be playing Sisters of Battle anyway =P


I don't mind the concept. The whole proxying thing is kind of necessary so that people will have enough models to compete, but kinda ruins it at the same time. I'd like to suggest improving the idea by players having to bring a 2k point army, and having their benefactor be able to give the restriction of taking away up to 500 points of selected models from their list

Hmmm. OP - Would you let everyone know how it turns out? I'd be interested to see how your gamers enjoy this. It sounds like it has real potential.

He did, about 6 posts up.

Sounds like a good time was had by all, probably.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For Sister the choice to ban would obviously be the Excorcist and force them to take Repentia. There is no way to overcome this handicap. As such there would be no reason for someone to ever play sisters in this tourney.

"Oh, you play Sisters? Well, you can't take any Battle Sister squads. What's that, you don't have any Troops Choices? Then you can't play!"

IIRC the OP said that troop and hq choices were exempt, and also that there are no Sisters players in his area, where the one off tourney was being held. Since it's already happened, no need to get upset for those non-existent Sisters players that might have attended.

If this was an ongoing thing, and he did have SIsters in his area, then it might cause problems, due to the extremely low number of Sisters units to pick from.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For Sister the choice to ban would obviously be the Excorcist and force them to take Repentia. There is no way to overcome this handicap. As such there would be no reason for someone to ever play sisters in this tourney.

"Oh, you play Sisters? Well, you can't take any Battle Sister squads. What's that, you don't have any Troops Choices? Then you can't play!"

Troops and HQ were immune to the ban, it could only effect FA/EL/HS

Okay, so then they ban exorcists like the quote inside that quote mentions. Either way you just crippled an army that's already a little outmatched to begin with and made the game that much more frustrating to play for that person, who likely wasn't dominating the local scene to begin with (and if he/she were it would have been entirely their doing since Sisters are definitely bottom tier, but no one ever likes to attribute a player's success to the player, it's always the army).

Armies that can take for example elites or fast attack as troops has a huge a advantage which is unfair.