The Pope Critizes Catholic Church

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**LordofHats**

I like this new Pope more and more;

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Francis said the Catholic Church should not allow its bans on gay marriage, abortion and contraception to dominate its teachings, but must be a more welcoming Church where priests are understanding pastors and not cold, dogmatic bureaucrats.

In a dramatically blunt interview with Civilta Cattolica, the Italian Jesuit monthly, Francis said the Church had locked itself up in "small things, in small-minded rules". It must find a new balance between upholding rules and demonstrating mercy, "otherwise even the moral edifice of the Church is likely to fall like a house of cards..."

Francis, the first non-European pope in 1,300 years and the first from Latin America, did not hold out the prospect of any changes soon to such moral teachings.

In the long interview with the magazine's director, Jesuit Father Antonio Spadaro, he also said he envisioned a greater role for women in the 1.2 billion member Church but suggested it would not include a change in the current ban on a female priesthood.

In an remarkable change from his predecessor Benedict, who said homosexuality was an intrinsic disorder, Francis said that when homosexuals told him they were always condemned by the Church and felt "socially wounded", he told them "the Church does not want to do this".

He re-stated his comments first made on the plane returning from Brazil in July that he was not in a position to judge gays who are of good will and in search of God.

In the interview released on Thursday, he added: "By saying this, I said what the catechism says. Religion has the right to express its opinion in the service of the people, but God in creation has set us free: it is not possible to interfere spiritually in the life of a person."

CHURCH SHOULD BE "A FIELD HOSPITAL"

The Church, he said, should see itself as "a field hospital after a battle" and try to heal the larger wounds of society and not be "obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently."

John Gehring, Catholic program director at Faith in Public Life, a liberal advocacy group in the United States, said:

"This pope is rescuing the church from those who think that condemning gay people and opposing contraception define what it means to be a real Catholic.

"Francis is putting a message of mercy, justice and humility back at the center of the church's mission. It's a remarkable and refreshing change."

The interview of some 12,000 words took place over three sessions in August in his simple quarters in the Vatican and was released on Thursday simultaneously in translations by Jesuit journals around the world.

"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that," he said.

"But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the Church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the Church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time," he said.

Speaking specifically of homosexuals, he said:

"We must always consider the person. Here we enter into the mystery of the human being. In life, God accompanies persons, and we must accompany them, starting from their situation. It is necessary to accompany them with mercy. When that happens, the Holy Spirit inspires the priest to say the right thing," he said.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexual tendencies are not sinful but homosexual acts are.

But in several parts of the interview, which took place in his simple quarters in a Vatican guest house where he has lived since his election instead of the spacious papal apartments, he stressed the need for mercy and understanding by priests.

"The confessional is not a torture chamber, but the place in which the Lord's mercy motivates us to do better," he said.

The pope also spoke about the role of women in the Church, saying their "deep questions must be addressed".

"We must therefore investigate further the role of women in the Church. We have to work harder to develop a profound theology of the woman. Only by making this step will it be possible to better reflect on their function within the Church," he said.

He hinted that he was open to giving women greater decision-making roles in the Church.

"The feminine genius is needed wherever we make important decisions. The challenge today is this: to think about the specific place of women also in those places where the authority of the Church is exercised for various areas of the Church," he said.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't read a "being gay is okay" vibe from this, but its certainly an improvement

And of course I agree with the general message that the Church has become overly embroiled in smaller issues, dragging the whole of the Church with it.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

I'm not Catholic but I really like where this new Pope is taking things.

**Ma55ter_fett**

Baby steps... but in the right direction.

**curran12**

I -am- Catholic and I really like where this new Pope is taking things. It's certainly no massive overhaul of the entire system, but it is a step in the right direction.

**Kilkrazy**

He seems to be turning out a lot less right wing than was expected.

**-Shrike-**

I'm also Catholic, and I consider this pope to be a welcome change. I wholeheartedly support moving away from the small rules!

**cincydooley**

There's a reason those of us that knew about this guy previous to his ascension to the papacy were happy. This is just one of those reasons.

**Troike**

He is surprisingly progressive for a Pope. Sign of the times, I suppose. But yeah, good to hear.

**nels1031**

I like the part where nothing he says is against Church teaching, (he even mentions the catechism being clear on the issues that are brought up) or revolutionary and its still turning peoples heads in a positive direction. Makes you wonder what Church teachings people were reading/misreading or assumed to know prior to Pope Francis.

**d-usa**

NELS1031 wrote:
I like the part where nothing he says is against Church teaching, (he even mentions the catechism being clear on the issues that are brought up) or revolutionary and its still turning peoples heads in a positive direction. Makes you wonder what Church teachings people were reading/misreading or assumed to know prior to Pope Francis.

It's not really that he is changing church teachings or that people were not interpreting it right.

He is just pointing out that church teachings and sins are no justification for being donkey caves to people.

**nels1031**

d-usa wrote:
NELS1031 wrote:
I like the part where nothing he says is against Church teaching, (he even mentions the catechism being clear on the issues that are brought up) or revolutionary and its still turning peoples heads in a positive direction. Makes you wonder what Church teachings people were reading/misreading or assumed to know prior to Pope Francis.

It's not really that he is changing church teachings or that people were not interpreting it right.

He is just pointing out that church teachings and sins are no justification for being donkey caves to people.

I know, I read the full interview and will reread it again, but look at people reactions in this thread: "progressive" "less right wing" "step in the right direction" . I'll have to find the interview Pope Benedict had where he essentially said the same thing but he had a more scholastic way of saying it and no one really picked up on it. This Pope is a much better communicator to the masses than the previous Pope even though the message is no different.

**cadbren**

The small rules are what keep people close to the church. You lower expectations and people feel they don't have to try as hard. I've seen that in sporting/martial arts where clubs that have an easy going atmosphere end up with attendence issues and committment issues as the easy going approach encourages people to slack off in their efforts.
Everytime a mainstream church like the Catholics or Anglicans bring in a more open, more liberal interpretation of the religion they bleed members. Evangelical churches are booming though, muslim mosques are full for the same reason.
Water down your faith and you water down your membership, remove your moral boundaries and your membership drops off.
The churches have been criticized for being behind the times for decades and they attempt to liberalise to address this. Problem is is that most of those being critical never had any intention of belonging to any church, let along the one being criticized.
So the church liberalises, gains no new members, alienates those who believe in the traditional church.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
This pope is also on a hiding to nowhere. European catholicism is dropping off, dying off. In the future the majority of catholics will be latin American and African, both populations which are very traditional in their interpretation of morality.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

cadbren wrote:
The small rules are what keep people close to the church. You lower expectations and people feel they don't have to try as hard. I've seen that in sporting/martial arts where clubs that have an easy going atmosphere end up with attendence issues and committment issues as the easy going approach encourages people to slack off in their efforts.
Everytime a mainstream church like the Catholics or Anglicans bring in a more open, more liberal interpretation of the religion they bleed members. Evangelical churches are booming though, muslim mosques are full for the same reason.
Water down your faith and you water down your membership, remove your moral boundaries and your membership drops off.
The churches have been criticized for being behind the times for decades and they attempt to liberalise to address this. Problem is is that most of those being critical never had any intention of belonging to any church, let along the one being criticized.
So the church liberalises, gains no new members, alienates those who believe in the traditional church.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
This pope is also on a hiding to nowhere. European catholicism is dropping off, dying off. In the future the majority of catholics will be latin American and African, both populations which are very traditional in their interpretation of morality.

Where do the people that leave the church usually go?

**motyak**

cadbren wrote:
In the future the majority of catholics will be latin American and African, both populations which are very traditional in their interpretation of morality.

Like the current pope who this thread is about?

**cadbren**

Apparently the current pope does not represent the views of the majority.
He also lets his nationality get the better of him in regards to comments made about the Falkland Islands. Popes should not take sides in border disputes.

**feeder**

Is it "mercy" that inspired the pedophile shuffling shell game the Catholic Church has been playing all these years? Each to his own faith, of course, but how anyone still supports a system with such a vile and pervasive practice is completely beyond me.

**KalashnikovMarine**

No it's politics as usual, we'll see if Pope Francis actually does the right thing and addresses that with some justice. Over all though this is exactly what I expected when they tossed a Jesuit into the big chair, a bit of a shake up.

**Ma55ter_fett**

feeder wrote:
Is it "mercy" that inspired the pedophile shuffling shell game the Catholic Church has been playing all these years? Each to his own faith, of course, but how anyone still supports a system with such a vile and pervasive practice is completely beyond me.

I was wondering that myself but didn't feel like bringing it up

**Tannhauser42**

Certainly a step in the right direction for the Catholic church, but we're not quite there yet.

**Crablezworth**

It's almost like he wants the catholic church to start reflecting the teachings of that guy in that book there, what's his name, jesus something.

**Alfndrate**

Crablezworth wrote:
It's almost like he wants the catholic church to start reflecting the teachings of that guy in that book there, what's his name, jesus something.

Nah, that's a spanish name. The Lord and Savior was something... Englishy... John right?

**cadbren**

Where does Jesus support sexual relations other than the usual man and woman model?

**Peregrine**

cadbren wrote:
Where does Jesus support sexual relations other than the usual man and woman model?

The important question is who cares? Society is clearly moving on, the question is whether the church will continue to cling to its obsolete beliefs and become irrelevant.

**Crablezworth**

cadbren wrote:
Where does Jesus support sexual relations other than the usual man and woman model?

Where does he oppose them?

If the church wants to use the old testament as a moral compass, they better start killing people who work on sundays, wear cotton/twill clothes or eat shelfish.

**cincydooley**

I love how condescending and belittling Catholics due to their faith is like, the new, en vogue thing to do. And it's like, completely okay.

**sebster**

cadbren wrote:
Everytime a mainstream church like the Catholics or Anglicans bring in a more open, more liberal interpretation of the religion they bleed members. Evangelical churches are booming though, muslim mosques are full for the same reason.

Arguing proper moral teaching through the lens of what grows the membership basis is insane. If something is believed to be right, then that church should argue for it. Arguing instead that something should be taught simply because it'll help maintain membership misses the point of being a church at all - you might have 50 million members but if you have no positive moral force then why bother?

**Ratbarf**

It's not just Catholics, you get that kind of stuff thrown your way regardless of what faith you are.

**sebster**

cadbren wrote:
Where does Jesus support sexual relations other than the usual man and woman model?

He doesn’t, because he doesn’t comment on the issue at all. Because he spent his life dealing with real issues, like charity and humility before God. Which is probably a large part of why he’s revered as such as wise man thousands of years later.

Whereas people who focused on someone else’s sin as a way of trumping up their own virtue, well history tends to regard those people as hateful little donkey-caves.

So you know, homosexuality as a sin… whatever. Spending a large amount of your time preaching against homosexuality and not focusing on poverty and bigger issues, well I think this new Pope has the right idea about that.

cincydooley wrote:
I love how condescending and belittling Catholics due to their faith is like, the new, en vogue thing to do. And it's like, completely okay.

Criticising religion is cool, but it's nowhere near as cool as pretending a conversation about religious morality is religious persecution.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ratbarf wrote:
It's not just Catholics, you get that kind of stuff thrown your way regardless of what faith you are.

And atheists will be told they can't have morals. Whatever. Boo fething hoo.

I mean, if you want to go around telling a whole sexual orientation that they're sinful, you don't get to cry when other people judge your religious group.

**feeder**

cincydooley wrote:
I love how condescending and belittling Catholics due to their faith is like, the new, en vogue thing to do. And it's like, completely okay.

Belittling someone for their personal beliefs an insecure little dick move at best. The fact that Catholics everywhere did not tear down their leadership when it became apparent how extensively organized the pedophile hiding scheme is, does call into question how steadfast those personal beliefs are.

**Crablezworth**

cincydooley wrote:
I love how condescending and belittling Catholics due to their faith is like, the new, en vogue thing to do. And it's like, completely okay.

I know right? The new pope is such a hipster...