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So I'm gonna try and keep this short and to the point. I'm thinking about trying to get into commission painting. I have person in my class who might need an army painted and I got a few questions regarding the basics.
First, if I should charge him for painting his army, How should I charge him? the amount of models?
second, How else could start commission painting? Could I paint my own models and sell them as well?
Third, if any commission painters find this I would greatly appreciate any advice you could give.

Read through this thread. It gets ugly in places, but it has some great tips on what you should and should not do in terms of commission painting: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/535574.page

Also, search out some established commission painting services and look at their pricing structures and turn-around times. It should give you an idea of how others monetize their time-because commission painting is all about time management-and allow you to determine how to set your own prices. Most important, seriously consider if you have the time, interest, and discipline to paint someone else's army. It is one thing to paint a few figures for friends and quite another to knock out a fully painted army. Where most commission painters go wrong is in under estimating the time and work it takes to paint for hire so before you alienate friends and disappoint customers do a gut check to see if this is a business you can actually manage well.

I'm not a commission painter, but I would expect to be charged based on the number of minis and the level of quality. You should also charge based on how much fun vs. pain it will be for you; i.e.does he wants a basic squad of 10 single-color space marines with little to no embellishments, or does he want 30 heavily detailed freebooters painted to a high standard? Some guys might consider the latter option as more desirable just because they like variety.

it seems really bloated with mediocre painters. to stand out you either need to be able to paint way way above the average or you need to beable to put out decent looking stuff insanely quickly (does assembling & painting an army a week and having to make it look decent sound fun to you?).

then there's the price gouging. it seems many painters will happily work for slave wages.

Don't bother, people either want to rip you off and get you to paint for next to nothing, or it takes you forever and you get very little in return.

I had one guy email me with a commission of 600 dwarves and nearly 80 warmachines at tournament award level and wanted me to do it for $200 (28 cents a model) in a month. He felt that because it was bulk it should be discounted. I emailed back that that would take me 6 months and that he was about $8,000 short. The reply was... colourful, to say the least.

I stopped doing anything that isn't worth my time, if you don't want to spend the cash there is dozens of lesser painters willing to kill themselves. Plus I do airbrushing, I can charge $500 to $1500 for a helmet that takes me 40hrs, why in the blue hell would I want to spend 150+ hours on an army and get roughly the same?

Its simply not a good way to make money, its great for increasing your skill, that's about it.

Honestly commission painting seems to me like they way photography has become since DSLRs became affordable. People think that because they can turn on a camera and take a shot, they are photographers. Same thing with painting. Just because you can slap some paint on a mini doesn't make you a professional.

Painting up your buddies army? Sure, but do it for something like free car rides, or pizza, or that guitar that he hasn't touched in a year. Don't take cash, it tends not to end well.

Do a real gut check here. Do you have the skill? Really? How about people skills? Do you have a plan for when a guy refuses to pay you because he doesn't like the work or claims he wanted blue and you painted red? Yeah sure, I guess you can keep the minis, but what the hell good is that going to do? What are you going to do if a guy hands you $1,000 worth of Forge World and you accidentally lose / ruin / break / eat it? I'm sorry ain't gonna cut that one....

Just some stuff to think about it.

I found that trading goods for painting works out much better; the barter-system is not dead. People get all weird when $$$ is involved. Try to keep it local, once you start sending stuff through the mail that's just one more level for things to get lost. There's already a plethora of pro-painters out there that do it better for less; not to put you off, give it a go, but that's what I've learned going on three years now. It's a side-job, not going to make a living on it, just using it to get the toys I want.

I started doing serious commission work about two years ago. Since I had been painting for years I had a lot of photos of my previous work. I also started a YouTube channel where I talk about painting minis. I also put up a website. I also participate in a lot of forums (like this one). I also post to Reddit, Tumblr, Flickr, Facebook... I spend a lot of time marketing my work.

For most of the past two years I've had a pretty unending stream of work. It's not a lot of money by any stretch, but it helps pay the bills and has forced me to become better and faster.

Although I do get the occasional inquiry from people who have no clear idea of how much time goes into painting, most of the time they don't mind being educated. I've had people who initially balked at my price come around and become paying clients when I explained the process and time involved. Always be patient. Also, always stick to your guns. Your price is your price and shouldn't be too flexible. People WILL try to get the best price they can and you should always be trying to get the best price that you can.

As for pricing, I do it on a per-figure basis. Single minis (like RPG minis, Heroes, etc) are much more than units of like figures because I know that there's a time savings with units. Don't forget that assembly takes time too. Factor it into your price.

It's a LOT of work. I had tried doing this years ago and wasn't really prepared for how much effort it took and gave up on it pretty quickly. This time around I had the necessity of needing to pay bills driving me forward. That really helped keep me focused in that first year.

Hey people, Thanks for the great advice. When it's all on the table at once I don't think this is something I would want to do professionally, but I like the idea of keeping it local, and keeping money out of it. I still don't know how to play this damn game, and maybe now I can actually learn and paint some models at the same time.

Any advice for selling armies that I don't want anymore

If you are doing it to help local people and get your opponent's painted, it can be worth it. I cannot recommend becoming a commissioned painter as It is a huge pain in the ass.

The way I did it in the past was I did a 'I paint a unit, you buy me a unit' as it allowed people to pay in trades, product won via tourneys, store credit, internet discounters.

So if you wanted a unit of 20 dwarves, then I wanted a box of orks or something of equal value. Worked pretty well for local people, and kept me in gaming when I was piss poor. Of course, at that time, My time was 'worthless' so putting it to work even at low value was worth it.

Now... I couldn't do it as the 5-10 hours it would take to assemble and paint a unit, no one would pay me what that time is worth. But back then, it was worth it, and it got people painted!

Now I would rather help people bulk paint by showing techniques or dip events.

kb305 wrote:

then there's the price gouging. it seems many painters will happily work for slave wages.

It's not "happily" working for slave wages, it's because everybody wants something for free. I did commissions for a while, and I hope I never have to again. At its worst, it came down to about $3 an hour. It was miserable.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Don't bother, people either want to rip you off and get you to paint for next to nothing, or it takes you forever and you get very little in return.

I had one guy email me with a commission of 600 dwarves and nearly 80 warmachines at tournament award level and wanted me to do it for $200 (28 cents a model) in a month. He felt that because it was bulk it should be discounted. I emailed back that that would take me 6 months and that he was about $8,000 short. The reply was... colourful, to say the least.
.

Ah yeah, that guy. Pretty much every commission painter I know has a story right along the lines of yours. I had a guy that wanted me to paint around 700 Ork models....For 100. I had to break it to him that that he was looking at around $700 worth of work.

Personally, I'm quitting the business sometime this February. I'm going to be applying for a part-time job, since I need it on my resume, and frankly, the idea of getting a regular paycheck instead of big chunks of payment and then nothing for weeks or months at a time is really appealing.

The cardinal rule is charge what your time is worth.
With big jobs, you need financial and work discipline - something I've found out through hard experience.

 King Crow wrote:
Hey people, Thanks for the great advice. When it's all on the table at once I don't think this is something I would want to do professionally, but I like the idea of keeping it local, and keeping money out of it. I still don't know how to play this damn game, and maybe now I can actually learn and paint some models at the same time.

Any advice for selling armies that I don't want anymore

Yes. Use bartertown or the swap shop here.

Don't just sell it to someone who makes an offer, find the guy who just *absolutely needs that army naow!*

That's the key to selling and trading for profit.

and what about selling painted armies or unpainted armies? Does it just depend on the buyer? Because whenever i'm buying mini's I always look for stuff that's unassembled and unpainted, but do people who buy entire armies at a time typically want to bypass all that?

 King Crow wrote:
and what about selling painted armies or unpainted armies? Does it just depend on the buyer? Because whenever i'm buying mini's I always look for stuff that's unassembled and unpainted, but do people who buy entire armies at a time typically want to bypass all that?

There's not a lot of money to be made selling pre-painted stuff. People WILL buy them, but not at what I would consider a reasonable return.

That's good to know. I've got a ton of space marines I want to get rid of, but i'd like to paint them first, free some space up, get some money back, and paint models all at the same time.

Well in that case you can use it as a quick experiment.

Paint up a batch of Space Marines and list them for sale. If they sell for more painted then they would have sold for unpainted, then your work has added value to them and you stand a good chance of getting people to pay you to paint things for them.

 King Crow wrote:
So I'm gonna try and keep this short and to the point. I'm thinking about trying to get into commission painting. I have person in my class who might need an army painted and I got a few questions regarding the basics.
First, if I should charge him for painting his army, How should I charge him? the amount of models?
second, How else could start commission painting? Could I paint my own models and sell them as well?
Third, if any commission painters find this I would greatly appreciate any advice you could give.

Dude welcome to the scene. You will undoubtedly have a headache or two with people concerning pricing and value and such. It is great when people look at your stuff and say "I love it! Can you do mine?"

I've been slowly growing my work basis (which stinks because I work full time so free time for me can be hard). Best advice I can give is keep your customers updated, maybe even a teaser photo here and there for them to decide if they like the direction you're going with their models. Its an awesome partnership when the person says "you read my mind!" but obviously that wont always happen. Also dont be afraid for them to be sure on their feelings. I've done quite a bit of work for quite a few friends and at the end of the day I want them to stay my friends.

Pricing for me: Did about 100 skaven and few monstrous creatures for a friend for about $200
Did some basing and power weapons for grey knights (should I say Gold Knights) and repaired a heavily damaged model for about $75
Painted a space wolf banner free hand for $20
an entire army of free hand raven guard emblems for $80
up to 6 tyranid monstrous creatures and two hive guard for $150
6 forgeworld greater deamon models for $175
Several independent characters varying from $15-$30

^this obviously is in no way meant to be the norm of course but I usually just ask the person what price they are wanting and how much they feel they would like to pay. I can post some of my work hopefully soon for you to get a better idea of what I've done for your reference, but once bro, have fun and do some good work. Im sure you'll knock em dead

For a "decent" painter looking to do commissions - your best bet would be to focus on your local market to cut out shipping costs and communication issues. Doing this will allow you to most likely generate some kind of profit. If you intend on expanding beyond the local market then your expectations should be to break even and through the commissions gain experience from working on projects you may not have attempted on your own.

I say this because you are up against some very talented individuals/businesses that already work on ridiculously low profit margins - it is not unknown for commission painters to take losses by sticking to their deadlines/original quotes in order to retain repeat customers/positive feedback.

That is how I would view it anyways.

winterdyne wrote:
The cardinal rule is charge what your time is worth.
With big jobs, you need financial and work discipline - something I've found out through hard experience.

This is what kills a lot of commission painters - they find out the hard way that there's a big difference between painting as something they do for themselves, and when it becomes a job that has deadlines and a client on the other end. It's not hard to find stories of commissions where the painter went for months without an update and when the customer finally asked him to send it back... it was still in the half finished state it was months ago.

Commission painting is a business, and if you can't treat it like such, you're going to run into problems fast. A friend of mine got into it because he's an awesome painter and loves mini painting, but he got out of it after only doing a few jobs because he found he hated having to do multiple models to other people's specifications, instead of doing stuff that inspired him.

You have to look at how much time you'll be investing, how much money you'll be making, and how much you're going to enjoy treating painting as a business.

And let's not forget the customers who don't pay for the paint job you poured your time into.

 warhamster77 wrote:
And let's not forget the customers who don't pay for the paint job you poured your time into.

This is why you take deposits. I take a 50% deposit before I will begin a project. That way rhe client is imvested in the project and if he fails to make the final payment I'm not left holding the bag.

Having said that, I've never had a client stiff me.

 Haight wrote:

 King Crow wrote:
Hey people, Thanks for the great advice. When it's all on the table at once I don't think this is something I would want to do professionally, but I like the idea of keeping it local, and keeping money out of it. I still don't know how to play this damn game, and maybe now I can actually learn and paint some models at the same time.

Any advice for selling armies that I don't want anymore

Yes. Use bartertown or the swap shop here.

Don't just sell it to someone who makes an offer, find the guy who just *absolutely needs that army naow!*

That's the key to selling and trading for profit.

Is it really possible to make profit with selling a whole army? (not counting in the countless hours of work assembling and painting)

I mean I already paid about over 8000 euros for my minis (4 armies) (not that I have the intend to sell them), but it's interessting - do people really pay ... lets say 2.500 euros for an army? (just the cost for the minis, conversion bits etc...)

daisho wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 King Crow wrote:
Hey people, Thanks for the great advice. When it's all on the table at once I don't think this is something I would want to do professionally, but I like the idea of keeping it local, and keeping money out of it. I still don't know how to play this damn game, and maybe now I can actually learn and paint some models at the same time.

Any advice for selling armies that I don't want anymore

Yes. Use bartertown or the swap shop here.

Don't just sell it to someone who makes an offer, find the guy who just *absolutely needs that army naow!*

That's the key to selling and trading for profit.

Is it really possible to make profit with selling a whole army? (not counting in the countless hours of work assembling and painting)

I mean I already paid about over 8000 euros for my minis (4 armies) (not that I have the intend to sell them), but it's interessting - do people really pay ... lets say 2.500 euros for an army? (just the cost for the minis, conversion bits etc...)

Actually yes on average I yield about $750-$1000 in profit for my armies but I can also do one to a high level in 40-50 hours. That said you have to know what sells well. For example I can knock out a blood angels army start to finish in under 40 hours and based on my costs keep it under $300 for all the models. I turn around on eBay and sell it without a reserve for $1250. After fees etc I walk out with around $900 for 40 hours of work. I've done this a few times but I tried once to let a friend sell it for me and suffice to say he screwed up big and only made me $100 for 50 hours of work. This happened because he failed to take good photos or properly describe them.

 warhamster77 wrote:
And let's not forget the customers who don't pay for the paint job you poured your time into.

People flake out in really weird ways. I've heard painters talk about getting down payment and models for a job, and then right in the middle the customer just starts blowing them off, or not answering e-mails or attempts at contact, or even jobs getting finished, and then the last payment never comes in, so the painter's sitting there, looking at these done models, the money that's already been paid, and asking 'WTF?'

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 warhamster77 wrote:
And let's not forget the customers who don't pay for the paint job you poured your time into.

People flake out in really weird ways. I've heard painters talk about getting down payment and models for a job, and then right in the middle the customer just starts blowing them off, or not answering e-mails or attempts at contact, or even jobs getting finished, and then the last payment never comes in, so the painter's sitting there, looking at these done models, the money that's already been paid, and asking 'WTF?'

That's why you generate contracts. In mine I always state they have up to 72 hours after completion to make a final payment otherwise I retain the rights to sell of the minis to recoup my own loss. Honestly if you want to be professional about it then be professional but the reality is so many people just think "kick butt I get extra money for models" and that's really what it is. If you want to hire a friend then hire a friend heck I have one friend I hire to paint for me as he owns his own professional studio but the only difference is I get a slight discount on the services. I just send him stuff I don't have time to paint as so many great models so little time. I'm still spending up to $50 a mini to get painted though and I wouldn't expect anything less as his quality is worth the price. If you want a professional commission then be prepared to pay for it but if you want your friend to then as I always say you get what you pay for.

I get a lot of emails asking how much for x,y,z and when I tell them I often hear "well I can get johny at my store to paint them for $3.50 a mini" and I tell them to feel free then to get them to do it. I charge for cleaning, building, conversions etc because I am not going to waste my time for something that would make me work 20 hours at $.10 an hour. I did that in the real army for 10 years. Almost all professional commission painters will tell you the same thing. Don't be afraid to say to the client or turn people away.

If you ARE going to paint Space Marines (for example) with intent to sell them as an army.. make SURE you paint them in a desired/accepted paint scheme.

You will more likely find a buyer for Ultramarines or Blood Angels than you would for something obscure like the Praetors of Orpheus.. this way you may find someone wanting to pick up an army to match an existing paint scheme or catch new players wanting the "posterboy" color scheme.

-P

I'll whip up a squad of ultramarines and see what I can get them for. I've had a few people tell me that I shouldn't paint them.