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So as stated in the title I'm having a problem with models that have the Tough advantage, especially those that can get to 4+ Tough. My local meta has a variety of players but I seem to hold my own vs pretty much everyone except those with BoomHowlers and the Pirates. I regularly use EMorv, Kromac and EKreuger. I love Gallows with Morv and Kreuger, though I don't have much success keeping them alive long enough to negate any tough rolls.

The BoomHowlers are run by Cygnar, and my opponent tends to vary his lists and casters quite a lot between games so I can't really give specifics. Pirates run 3 Nomads, Seadogs, Pressgangers and a ton of solos to layer on those buffs.

We play at 35pts. My lists:

EMorv

Stalker
Gorax

Max unit of Skinwalkers +UA
Max unit of WoO +UA

2x Gallows
Shifting stones +UA
Shifting stones

Kromac

Stalker
Ghetorix
Gorax

Woldstalkers

Shifting stones +UA
Shifting stones
Blackclad
Blackclad

EKreuger

Stalker
Gorax
WoldWarden

Max Skinwalkers +UA
Shifting Stones
Shifting Stones

2x Gallows Groves

I'm pretty happy with these lists in general, though knowing how EKreuger struggles with colossals has led me to want to try out our own gargantuan with him (just don't own the model yet). Just those damn Tough rolls...

Any help?

Doesn't the skinwalker UA give them a sort of snacking, and wouldn't that bypass tough?

*goes to check his book*

edit: nope, its not like snacking in that regard, so nevermind me

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/slaughterhouserS

 Talamare wrote:
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/slaughterhouserS

That would do it. Those guys are awesome.

Concentrating on Boomhowler (himself) helps to get rid of them as only he has the special abilities.

Cassius's feat causes tough models (that can be knocked down) to re-roll their tough checks whilst within his forest.

Ghetorix has Snacking.

eMorvanna has Carnivore. Put that on the Skinwalkers. That'll get rid of Tough model's real quick, especially the easily hit boomhowlers. And their armor isn't high enough to protect them from Skinwalker axe to the face.

Gallows Grove will do it in a pinch, but I wouldn't rely on it exclusively.

But really, Carnivore. RFPs if you use it to heal Morvanna, and she should be healing because you should be using her rerolls.

1:kromac.cast warpath.
2: teleport/pace multiple groves in the squad area of boom howlers.
3:apply warpwolf stalker to face, warping berserk.


Plenty things bypass tough - look to those? Or switch to khador and take butcher 3 for the lols!

Hold on...I know Carnivore RFP, but I assumed it was at boxed and doesn't Tough trigger at disabled?

Oh wow, things look a lot better if I'm wrong!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I've just gone and looked at a few things. I don't see how Carnivore or Snacking get around Tough. Any help?

Doesn't it go boxed-disabled-RFP? So Carnivore skips disabled, and the things that disabled triggers including tough?

Disabled -> Boxed -> Destroyed

Tough counters Snacking


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and Carnivore



Automatically Appended Next Post:
and essentially counters Berserk as well

Hot dang.

Really?

I was sure that anything that RFPs bypassed Tough.

Carnivore nor Snacking bypasses Tough--that's MkI.


You are running EMorv and Gallows Grove--you should be able to handle Tough pretty well. First, the Groves will always be stealth with Fog Of War so it's relatively reliable to get them next to a couple of Toughs you want to remove.

Second, EMorv allows you to reroll damage/attack rolls--so you should be able to force more Tough checks.

Last, when Morv feats you can bring back Groves right where you need them to eradicate the remainder of the Tough models. I've wiped out Errants pretty reliably with this--as normally late game non-reach models start clumping after charges--and one Groves can cover quite a few models.



All that said, I understand your frustration with Tough--I think it's one of the poorer mechanics of the game. Either a Troll player strings together a lot of Tough rolls and breaks/tilts your turn--or they fail to make any and tilt their (Tough costed) army.

Well my Errants will be happy to hear that Carnivore doesn't stop tough and they can stop Ghetorix from snacking them.

Yeah I found bringing back groves helps. But the real frustration is charging a Tough screen, failing to make an impact, getting counter charged and then feating to get the unit back but this time they get no action...so they die all over again. I think I need to re-think my strategy vs them.

For the "wave of pirates" list in particular, try to take out Doc Killingsworth (who upgrades their Tough rolls to 4+) and Grogspar (friendly pirates in his command can't be knocked down) at range or with magic. Ditto for Boomhowler & Co--if you take out Boomhowler himself, the odds drop a bit. In general, an abundance of damage rolls is the counter to Tough, in addition to the Gallows Groves.

Also, don't forget you can play that game too, by taking a Gatorman Witch Doctor.

 Elemental wrote:
For the "wave of pirates" list in particular, try to take out Doc Killingsworth (who upgrades their Tough rolls to 4+) and Grogspar (friendly pirates in his command can't be knocked down) at range or with magic.

If you kill rockbottom it removes the tough entirely from the sea dogs unit, making killingsworth and grogspar's abilities much less useful for him, so I'd prioritise him over those two. Unless killingsworth is beside the press gangers instead, then killingsworth becomes worth killing

(I waited all post to say that last bit. I think I showed admirable restraint)

Well yes I think once I get more play time in eMorv will be my most solid counter. Throwing out a few Death Knells early on to thin numbers and not just engaging asap might be a valid tactic. At 35pts I just need to find the right kind of unit which has decent range and can make the most out of FoW. I'm currently thinking Nyss Hunters. I know Reeves are probably a better investment in this scenario, but they are also more costly if you want them to perform all the tricks they can do and it's points I simply don't have.

My random experience with Tough is that my Bloodgorgers will be nearly wiped out with nary a Tough roll to be seen, but have fun killing that last one as he makes up for his brethren's weakness.