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I've never played the new Tau, and now we have a player starting out. So I wondered, what's Tau's edge on everyone? Other than the obvious Riptides and Eldar allies, my thoughts were something like
-Supporting Fire
-The sheer range and power of even the basic weapons
-Pathfinders (used correctly at least)

Did I miss something? Because shooty forces ignore support fire, fire warriors aren't the best shots or the toughest, and pathfinders need some real skill if WD is to be believed. And for now at least, run from the assumption there are no allies, and no riptide (he's only new)

Railguns
crisis suits
marker lights
ion weapons

Missile broadsides. The best ballistic skill in the game on basic troops using ML. Best infantry guns in the game... That's just a few.

Lucarikx

In general

- Long range
- High strength
- Volume of fire
- Synergy between models
- INTERCEPTOR ALL THE THINGS!

Yikes, think I need to round up some Comissars to shoot my guardsmen when they wet themselves and run away.
How in heck does any other shooting army beat that thing???

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
Yikes, think I need to round up some Comissars to shoot my guardsmen when they wet themselves and run away.
How in heck does any other shooting army beat that thing???

With IG? Super easy: MSU everything (don't even think about running combined squads), stay out of the 36" death zone and blast everything into pieces with Lascannons, Manticores and Russes.

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
Yikes, think I need to round up some Comissars to shoot my guardsmen when they wet themselves and run away.
How in heck does any other shooting army beat that thing???

They tend not to. Though Tau do tend to excel at longer range. There are armies that can match or beat them at under 24" and do even better even closer. Obviously, Tau really fail when the enemy gets right next to them, i.e. in Close Combat. The trouble is getting there and surviving the overwatch. With Tau gunlines, the trick is target priority and splitting up their supporting fire "web".

 The Shadow wrote:

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
Yikes, think I need to round up some Comissars to shoot my guardsmen when they wet themselves and run away.
How in heck does any other shooting army beat that thing???

They tend not to. Though Tau do tend to excel at longer range. There are armies that can match or beat them at under 24" and do even better even closer. Obviously, Tau really fail when the enemy gets right next to them, i.e. in Close Combat. The trouble is getting there and surviving the overwatch. With Tau gunlines, the trick is target priority and splitting up their supporting fire "web".

Great advice, but how would it be done? What is the order (I assume riptides, troops, suits roughly) and how would a web be best split?

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
I assume riptides, troops, suits roughly

Pathfinders/marker lights > Troops/ethereal > the rest > riptide last

Generally speaking without marker light support there shooting is just a bit above standard and removing them will remove most of there ability to remove cover.
Depending on the list troops will be light. remove them to force them to table you. also ethereal buffs are amazing for the price. try to snipe it out with barrage or something.
Kill the rest depending on what counters what in your army.
Riptides are bullet magnets. ignore if you can, locking them into combat for the game would be better to keep em from shooting.

I'll do my best, pathfinders in the right hands seem brutal so I'll just turn an LR eradicator on them.

Tau have good small arms and anti-mid strength vehicle shooting, and also can deal with Flyers and cover saves very easily. They also have great Troops. These are all strong assets in the current environment-- a balanced Tau army has the shooting power to deal with almost anything and the solid Troops core to go the distance.

That's good to know... My foot guard is doomed. Think I need some HEAVY armour.... Roll on the LRBTs

 Desubot wrote:

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
I assume riptides, troops, suits roughly

Pathfinders/marker lights > Troops/ethereal > the rest > riptide last

99% of the 40k playing population would disagree about Riptides being last.

Generally speaking without marker light support there shooting is just a bit above standard and removing them will remove most of there ability to remove cover.

This, imo, is the biggest thing to keep in mind in my opinion. The marker lights just allow the Tau to ignore a lot of rules and can even help them ignore some of their own weaknesses. Knock out Pathfinders first, followed by Missile-sides.

Next I would say watch out for mass Kroot squads. Using huge squads of cheap Kroot can allow the Tau to use decent board control.

Got it. Pathfinders, broadsides with SMS or whatever it is, troops (especially in blobs), then riptide (bullet magnet or no it needs dealing with), then the J-S-J Crisis gak, then I reckon that's me sorted. All using the poor bloody guard

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
I assume riptides, troops, suits roughly

Pathfinders/marker lights > Troops/ethereal > the rest > riptide last

99% of the 40k playing population would disagree about Riptides being last.

The riptide is last because it's ridiculously hard to kill via shooting and no sane Tau player is ever going to let you get into assault with one.

Because everyone is still stuck on the idea that 6th is a shooting-only game.

6th edition is all about Monstrous Creatures and heldrakes. Those are the biggest threats. Think about the top tier armies... they all have T6 or greater 2+ or 3+ armor save monstrous creatures. You simply can't out shoot that. You can't shoot it down.

Tau fold to assault... which is easier said than done. They also fall apart to leadership based tests. My Tyranids can out-MC them so I've been pretty successful.

THIS is why gravguns are needed.

If you didn't build your whole list around shooting then the two best shooting armies wouldn't be 'top tier.'

Imagine a Khorne Dog army or a drop pod army dropping in on those? Yes, they can intercept you with large blasts... if you drop in a position which means the blasts would have to touch Tau models they can't shoot you with that. Plus, they can't shoot that weapon next turn so you basically get a free turn against them.

Those are my feelings anyway... dismiss them at will.

Think about what Tau is afraid of... then look to see who is playing that competitively. Everyone is playing shooty-something which means Tau and Eldar are king for now.

 Kain wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
I assume riptides, troops, suits roughly

Pathfinders/marker lights > Troops/ethereal > the rest > riptide last

99% of the 40k playing population would disagree about Riptides being last.

The riptide is last because it's ridiculously hard to kill via shooting and no sane Tau player is ever going to let you get into assault with one.

And how does that make it last? What is posted above says Pathfinder are better than Troops and the Ethereal, which are better than the other good stuff, and then that the Riptide is the worst of the good stuff. Or at least that's how the above reads, unless I missed something?

I think he meant for target priorities for the guard.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
I assume riptides, troops, suits roughly

Pathfinders/marker lights > Troops/ethereal > the rest > riptide last

99% of the 40k playing population would disagree about Riptides being last.

Then they are wrong. and that's coming from tau.

Most match-ups, I like nothing better then my riptides focued with all the nasty stuff that won't aim at my crisis suits/tanks (enclaves, suits are troops for me)


Reasons you MIGHT focus riptides?
You got a super-elite army, you should fear the IA/fusion riptides. they need to take a beating, at least enough to make NOVA risky.
You got horde army, you should fear the HBC/SMS riptide, and probably want to gun him down, good news-only 1 of them, and only in enclaves.
You got a deepstrike army, you should fear the riptides who got the EWO, and them alone, heavy guns take down interceptor suits. (remember that after intercepting he cant shoot any good next turn, so you got a turn free of him. get the ones who CAN shoot next turn.)
You got an air army-if its not with a VT, its not an issue, heavy guns got after whatever DOES have VT.
You got a MEQ spam army? forget riptides, you are an inefficient target for them anyway, heavy guns go against ion tanks first.

Now other targets?
Pathfinders-always good to kill. flamers make short work of them, so does anything else AP5 and ignore cover, or better. and even if you can't get AP5, just ignoring cover will probably get the job done.
Marker drones with controller? always good kill. the controller itself, or the drones. use AP4 high volum when drones take the front, and krakmissiles and up when the commander is.
Tetras? always good kill. even bolters will work, the hard part is cartching up. autocannons are great here, other long-range AT will also to the trick, but volume generally is better then quality in the case.
Ethreal? always good kill. precision shots with S6+ will be nice, though he will likely manage an LOS, you can also just nuke the entire squad, try dropping barrage on him, line attacks (heat ray, JOTWW, etc) or trying to nab some focused witchfire. vindicare is almost instant-win here.

Catch my drift? tau is an army with WEAK native shooting (though ability to spam some heavy guns), the point is we got multiple versatile buffers who play along very well, and we got a mechanic that allows, when used properly to render assault very hard.

How to get past the supporting fire? tank shock. not only does weak tau moral means they just might run away, when you tank shock the right distances-you can force units aside, and once you isolate them, in comes the sweeper unit. and you don't even need much or a sweeper. a lousy 5-man assault marine squad can take down most tau units in CC. (pretty much anything other then riptides and HQs)
Also, while we are abusing lack of Ld? if a unit is not a major threat, a few kills to force a retreat works, also pinning does wonders against tau.


How to get past the screen of S7 doom? AV13 works pretty well, S7 has a hard time with it, but S14 outright goes "and not a single feth is given" as it drives in, tankshocks around to force movement/runs, shoot a little to spice things up, and at some cases deploys some troops.
Got AV14 all around-drive into them like a boss.
Only front? build a wall.
Kist remember when using walls of AV-take down them fusion blasters. they can HURT.


But always, no matter WHAT happens-aim for the markers first if it is in any case possible, or, if markers are static (pathfinders), try to park the importat stuff out of their reach, at least until your own long range deals with them.

I've seen some good points in this thread, but I want to add something myself:
In my opinion their strength is in the built-in capability to 'ignore' their weaknesses.
Low BS: Markerlights
Bad in CC: Great overwatch, Jet Packs
Low Survivability: Great range so they can stay in cover.
Lack of AA: Skyfire-option for suits.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
And how does that make it last? What is posted above says Pathfinder are better than Troops and the Ethereal, which are better than the other good stuff, and then that the Riptide is the worst of the good stuff. Or at least that's how the above reads, unless I missed something?

That list was for target priority

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
I assume riptides, troops, suits roughly

Pathfinders/marker lights > Troops/ethereal > the rest > riptide last

99% of the 40k playing population would disagree about Riptides being last.

The riptide is last because it's ridiculously hard to kill via shooting and no sane Tau player is ever going to let you get into assault with one.

And how does that make it last? What is posted above says Pathfinder are better than Troops and the Ethereal, which are better than the other good stuff, and then that the Riptide is the worst of the good stuff. Or at least that's how the above reads, unless I missed something?

Because Riptides can't score and have trouble killing stuff once pathfinders are dead, whereas FWs can score and Ethereals are worth VPs.

 Krellnus wrote:
Ethereals are worth VPs.

Not to mention decent AOE Buffs.

The rest everyone else pretty much answered

Basically the thing that makes Tau really good is that in addition to 6th heavily favouring shooting, they don't pay a premium for having a statline good at shooting and combat (like marines) and don't have any units in their codex with melee ability, which means pretty much whatever they take is focused on one thing, shooting you.

why tau are op.....

1) overwatch is another turn of shootong
2) they ignore cover like nothing else.
3) missile suits
4) massed long range fire power
5) eldar allies
6) riptides
7) they ingnore cover like a boss
8) repeat above^^^

Markerlights in general make them very powerful. If all you were doing was boosting BS, it'd be one thing, but a unit of 10 pathfinders can drop enough markers down that an enemy unit will be getting hit from multiple units at BS4 with ignores cover.

Cheap interceptor also pretty much breaks them. Tau are incredible at keeping people out of assault, and gunline for gunline they beat pretty much everyone. The equalizer would be to deep strike/outflank with things and try to do some damage in a single shooting round before you get shot to death, but with interceptor Tau don't even allow that.

Tau's one weakness is in assault. Problem is, no one can get there.

But yeah, missilesides, riptides with lots of ion, and pathfinders. Combine those three for profit.

Also, we should never assume he won't have a riptide. If anything, we should assume that as soon as he has the money for them, he'll have 3 (if not 4 via allying with Farsight supplement).

DogofWar1 wrote:

Tau's one weakness is in assault. Problem is, no one can get there.

Your forget
Low moral
Generally 4+ armor or worse
Weak mid and backfield grabs
Expensive as heck transports
dependance on other units (synergy works both ways)

Jet-pack infantry
Markerlight

The 2 most importmant reasons IMO.

 Desubot wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:

Tau's one weakness is in assault. Problem is, no one can get there.

Your forget
Low moral
Generally 4+ armor or worse
Weak mid and backfield grabs
Expensive as heck transports
dependance on other units (synergy works both ways)

The issue is those downsides of their infantry are generally masked by the sheer awesomeness of their non-infantry units. Broadsides and Riptides don't suffer from 4+ saves. And odds are, fire warriors will be in some sort of cover getting themselves a nice save, and their firepower is likely better (s5) and longer ranged (30") than comparable infantry, so the 4+ saves and low moral don't factor in to it as much.

Synergy can cut both ways, but a well rounded list limits the downsides. Pathfinders are protected by broadsides and riptides long enough (especially with intercepter weapons) for them to put down markerlights. It's not like markerlights need to be stacked to 10 to be effective, a single unit of pathfinders can usually put down enough markerlights to make an enemy unit easy pickings. Their synergy is relatively easy to employ in that regard.

Their weakest point is mid and backfield grabs, and that can be taken advantage of, but that's more tactical choices of the player than army power. Even then, if you hold onto your home objectives and contest and keep focusing fire on opposing objectives, you can usually win by sweeping people off them. A couple riptides with 72" ion accelerators firing Nova charge will clear a unit off an objective real fast, one way or another.

Stop trying desubot, people like him keep crying foul even after proven wrong over and over again.

Tau has a shopping list of problems, and most of their units depends on other units to be efficient, and in every case at least one of them is highly fragile.

Overwatch is NOTHING like an extra shooting turn. you hit on 6s and don't quite control who gets to shoot what.

"Cheap interceptor" is not at all cheap, 5 points per model might look like a bargain, but once you realize it comes on an already expensive model, with attached opportunity price of limited system choices, you realize they are less then amazing. (also, wild thought, if he spammed interceptors-don't try to sneak in from outflank?)

Getting into assault is easy, if you got a shred of clue what you are doing and proper artillery support to force the tau to split up.

Missile suits are efficient, but expensive and immoile, if they are spammed just use your heavy guns to take them out from outside their reach, or again, take high AV so they can't really do anything.

You should not assume he has or has not a riptide, we should just learn to deal with them-and in 90% of the times, it means leave them alone.

God, why do people keep bitching about tau when they clearly don't even do minimal effort for using actual TACTICS against them.
Why do you THINK you get pounded? tau spent the entire last edition being stomped to the ground and were forced to learn every single trick in the book, come new codex and said tricks coupled with actual power mocks the age-old "just walk up and swipe them with no effort" way of action they call "strategy" is no longer enough.
I have yet to see ANYONE attempt a tank shock against me, despite it being a good choice at time, despite that I constantly do that to them and they SEE it in action, and unlike some armies, I don't really have anything to "death or glory" with.
Its also rare that people use movement to block my LoS, despite me doing it non-stop to them.
Dodging shots, forcing me to move more then I want to, scattering to prevent blast efficiency, non-standard deployment, trying to trick me-none of it almost ever happen.

If you can't take on tau, improve your play. and learn the rulebook because there are TONS of stuff you can do and probably not even aware. (for example, did you know jetpacks and skimmers can stand on impassable terrain as long you actually manage to place the model?)