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Speaking of, I find the hypocracy amusing when people state from one hand that "taudar rule the meta" and from the other hand that the TFC and land raiders are "not competitive" when they are the very things the so called "ruler of the meta" cant really handle when used properly.

as a great man once said "A dumb move is not dumb when it works."
Sure LR and TFC were subpar in the 5th meta of power armor spam and melta all over the place, but now that melta has gotten rare and 4+/5+ infantry ruin your day? these two will crush thier way to the top.

I played vs Tau with my old DW army and it worked very well.

Tau have massive issues with AV14 and I fielded three LRC in 1850.

Tau also have issues against Nidzilla as all of their shooting goes towards the big beasts, they ignore the little ones and end up with their Fire Warriors in CC.

I don't know what the top meta army is in your area, but mono Tau is not top in either of my Metas. I put that down to poor pilots.

We have Mono Eldar and Drakespam as our top armies and even then, Drakespam is very beatable.

Puscifer wrote:
Tau also have issues against Nidzilla as all of their shooting goes towards the big beasts, they ignore the little ones and end up with their Fire Warriors in CC.

... Not at all, Tau kill all the MCs then the little ones evaporate without Synapse. Tau are the third worst matchup for Tyranids, atm.

If tau evaporate your MCs, you are doing something wrong.
Killing one per turn is within the realm of reason, but when you have 4-5 of them, and you spawn hordes of minions, and reach into charge range by turn 2 with multiple squads and even more squads in turn 3 (as I've seen done to me too often), killing an MC every turn is not enough.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Tau also have issues against Nidzilla as all of their shooting goes towards the big beasts, they ignore the little ones and end up with their Fire Warriors in CC.

... Not at all, Tau kill all the MCs then the little ones evaporate without Synapse. Tau are the third worst matchup for Tyranids, atm.

I took a this list to the last 1750 tournament I went to.

Swarmlord
Guard w/whip

2 Pyrovores in a pod
3 zoanthropes
1 Doom in a pod

Tervigon w/ 3 powers, TS, and AG
10 Termagaunts

Tervigon w/ 3 powers, TS, and AG
10 Termagaunts

25 Gargoyles, TS, AG

Biovore

Firestorm Redoubt

I played against a Tau player with 3 Riptides and 2 Hammerheads. He had a big squad of crisis suits with marker drones and a few squads of fire warriors with an ethereal. There was a quadgun line but he didn't put anything behind it after he saw me deploy across from it.

He put his fire warriors in reserves because he knew that I was going to bake them with my reserves. When his first turn started, my leading gargoyles were just 6-8" away from his crisis suits in some ruins. A mediocre jump move made it possible for me to assault them with the gargoyles.

When my reserves came in I made sure to either drop them out of line of sight (pyrovores behind a ruin) or right next to a pair of riptides (1 inch from one of their bases to avoid blasts for the doom).

Gargoyles ran around glancing hammerheads to death after that. The biggest threat he had was his Monster Hunter/missile pod crisis suits (which could be switched out with missilesides I suppose). My list was so aggressive though that he couldn't focus everything down fast enough.

He knew he had one chance at the swarmlord and that was when I rolled a 1 for iron arm turn one. At T7 and at cost of his guard, he clung on with 1 wound and just slunk into the shadows of a nearby ruin to hold down my backfield objectives until the game ran down.

Target priority is everything for Tau. If they can shoot 1 thing at a time, they're excellent. If you mob them with 2-3 threats at once they tend to fall apart as the key to their success, markerlights, don't spread around like that. They can kill precisely one thing per turn except for the odd lone model or rhino chassis.

Tau are very very good vs nids, they have single handily bumped them from tier 1 to tier 3 in the competitive scene. There is a reason out of 250 people at nove, I was one of 6 nid players.

Now a good bug player can beat a bad tau player still, but with even skill level and average luck on both sides, the tau player should come out on top, assuming the mission is a standard one.

Broadsides, or a burst tide with a chip commander should kill a mc a turn.

That said, as long as you are not playing them in kps you have a chance.

 BoomWolf wrote:
If tau evaporate your MCs, you are doing something wrong.
Killing one per turn is within the realm of reason, but when you have 4-5 of them, and you spawn hordes of minions, and reach into charge range by turn 2 with multiple squads and even more squads in turn 3 (as I've seen done to me too often), killing an MC every turn is not enough.

I'd love to live in this magical land of yours where Tau can only kill 1 MC per turn.

 BoomWolf wrote:
If tau evaporate your MCs, you are doing something wrong.
Killing one per turn is within the realm of reason, but when you have 4-5 of them, and you spawn hordes of minions, and reach into charge range by turn 2 with multiple squads and even more squads in turn 3 (as I've seen done to me too often), killing an MC every turn is not enough.

They can do a lot more damage than that, just extrapolating off how fast then can kill FNP space marines.

I just started playing Tau and have to deal with daemon players who like to play 4 FMCs running around the board so do tell...how do I kill 1 FMC a turn? A Riptide nova charging his heavy burst cannon would give him 12 rending shots (that get hot!). Attached to commander Buffy the Riptide would become TL, monster hunter and ignore cover. In most cases the MC has iron arm so will almost always be t7+ which means you will need to hit and wound on 6's, right?

When I was at Nova this year there were a ton of people playing daemons with multiple MCs and dogs running around. My first two games were against that type of build so I can only assume the Tau players (and there were a sh*t load of them) had to deal with the daemon MC lists and Tau almost always seemed to come out on top...

How are they reliably getting iron arm?

Luck I guess but it seemed like they were lvl3 psykers so they just kept rolling on biomancy until they got it...

It should be a 50% chance on each level 3 psyker: 1-((5/6)*(4/5)*(3/4)).

Even with ironarm, they'll need T9 to not take a huge amount of wounds from missilesides. And the ones that don't have it can be popped by firewarriors.

 necron99 wrote:
Luck I guess but it seemed like they were lvl3 psykers so they just kept rolling on biomancy until they got it...

As someone who plays flying daemon circus, I can tell you that I would much rather roll telepathy on all my flying princes then biomancy. If I get an iron arm its because fateweaver got it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It should be a 50% chance on each level 3 psyker: 1-((5/6)*(4/5)*(3/4)).

Even with ironarm, they'll need T9 to not take a huge amount of wounds from missilesides. And the ones that don't have it can be popped by firewarriors.

Yup, and on princes you are going to max out at t8 which just is not worth it. Especially vs tau

Yeah, as I recall it was Fateweaver who was running around with iron arm in both games. FW was also the lynch pin of the whole operation so my night scythes were pouring everything they could into it to try and keep the dogs from getting their 2+ invuln. So I'd take some shots and then they'd vector strike me to death.

 necron99 wrote:
Yeah, as I recall it was Fateweaver who was running around with iron arm in both games. FW was also the lynch pin of the whole operation so my night scythes were pouring everything they could into it to try and keep the dogs from getting their 2+ invuln. So I'd take some shots and then they'd vector strike me to death.

the best way to beat that list is to not fire at fateweaver (tho sometimes it might be the only model on the board lol). He should be pretty light on scoring units so you should go for those first.

Above 2500 points other armies start to catch up to tau and eldar. I know not many people play at this high of a threshold but at that level he is forced to fill in spots he doesnt want to take. even with a 2nd FOC nobody I know owns 6 riptides or would dish out for 6 riptides. If you want to have a fun game play a 4000 point game. There will be so much for the tau to shoot at that they can't possible take it all down before you get there. I played 4500 Eldar (me) vs Orks and with all my shootiness I couldnt stay out of melee combat. By the end of turn 2 I had 2 squads tied up in melee combat. Turbo boost a wave serpent of wraithguard in there and watch tau cry as his riptide gets instagibbed by distortion cannons. 3 squads of 5 make it nearly impossible to avoid this 565 points for 3 squads in a serpent each makes short work of any multi wound models. Their high toughness makes it near impossible for their troops weapons to damage you and with a heavy armor save they are forced to shoot their heavy weapons at your guard or suffer because of them. Meanwhile your wave serpents are mopping up troops by discharging their shields on things and while your wraithguard are getting shot up by their heavy weapons, your heavy weapons are tearing them up. It deffinately isnt a take all comers list but it really takes down the tau (especially if its nightfighting and they go first)! Have a spiritseer in the army and those wraithguard are scoring as well!

Bite back all you like, but that reason has really run thin. ALL armies are more than the sum of their parts. ALL armies rely on units working together. That's not something unique to the Tau or the Eldar. In fact, it only strengthens my point that the Tau are so super-two-dimensional. Arguing that the existance of Pathfinders adds some depth to their play style is a joke. They still have a short list of unit types. Shooty units, and units that make the shooty units more shooty. Obviously Pathfinders are the later, and if you take them out first you do cripple most of the remaining forces.

Now... how exactly does that make them less friendly to beginners?

lol So you admit that simply killing ONE SINGLE unit can instantly have a crippling effect on the rest of the army yet you can't understand how that might make them harder for beginners to use? You don't understand how different that is from an army like Space Marines where you can drop multiple units and the army just keeps on coming like nothing's wrong? You really don't see how an army like Tau that is made up of specialists with almost no redundancy and a lot units that are easy to kill would be harder for a beginner? I'm starting to think you might actually BE a beginner. No shame in that of course. I'd draw similar comparisons to Eldar, but given your previous comments it's clear your not following.

The bottom line is that the Tau simply do not have the variety of play styles or strategies available to them that other armies do. All Tau players, from the neophyte to the Expert play the same game with Tau. Deploy Army in a gunline - roll buckets of dice - profft. They don't need to bother about moving around the table since they have range to all of it. They don't need to worry about unit positioning since they don't need LoS. They don't have to worry about formations since they can shre overwatch. They don't have to worry about breakaway units or flyers since they have easy access to interceptor.

All the things that other players have to learn and dapt to... making them more skillful strategists, are absent in the Tau meta. They just don't have to adress them.

Look, I'm no "expert", but I've played Tau since their very first codex. I can count on one hand the number of times I've deployed in a gunline and even when I've deployed that way, it breaks up into seperate mobile units right away, so I can honestly say I've never played using a gunline. Same with most of my local Tau players. To be honest, I'm not sure why I'm bothering here. The more I read your comments the more it feels like you might just be suffering from a mild case of butt-hurt. My guess is that you probably also feel CSM is OP because you lost to Helldrakes once, and even though your probably running a lot of Fortuned Jet seers and Serpent spam, YOUR army probably requires you to be a tactical genius ...

Smart people don't even bother with Pathfinders anymore, just a C&C commander in with Farsight Enclave O'Vesa and an Iontide and spammed Skyrays, for some AV13 markerlights that have skyfire.

My only local Tau player (outside of tournies) only uses a single squad of Pathfinders, and uses their weapons more than their Markers. The Markers are usually to enable multiple units to gain Skyfire. BS3 TL Railsides + a BS4 Hammerhead both into the sky makes my Night Scythes a little nervous to fly in.

 IHateNids wrote:
My only local Tau player (outside of tournies) only uses a single squad of Pathfinders, and uses their weapons more than their Markers. The Markers are usually to enable multiple units to gain Skyfire. BS3 TL Railsides + a BS4 Hammerhead both into the sky makes my Night Scythes a little nervous to fly in.

Less nervous when flying into a HBC Riptide with re-roll to hit, tank hunter and ignores cover?

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
If tau evaporate your MCs, you are doing something wrong.
Killing one per turn is within the realm of reason, but when you have 4-5 of them, and you spawn hordes of minions, and reach into charge range by turn 2 with multiple squads and even more squads in turn 3 (as I've seen done to me too often), killing an MC every turn is not enough.

I'd love to live in this magical land of yours where Tau can only kill 1 MC per turn.

Sure, ok, you kill two a turn... oh look the rest of the Nid army is nomming your face off as you couldn't kill the original two swarms of Gants or the two more that spawned on T1.

If you have unit redundancy like Nids tend to have, Tau then have a hell of a job to kill them all. You produce or field too many things for Tau to shoot at.

If the Tau Player saturates one or possibly two MC or units a turn, you'll probably kill one or two a turn... but the Tau player is on a clock. Those Nids will be in CC on T2.

If you split fire across the breadth of a Nid army, the Tau are in trouble as you won't have done enough dmg to stop the horde.

That's how Nids beat Tau.

That and a Mawloc or two. Biovores a good too.

There is a reason why Tau in one form or other are on the top of every major tournament. I don't expect Space Marines to make a huge impact there, but I do expect to see SM allied with Tau, e.g.

SM:
Khan on bike
Fully tooled up Chapter master on a bike taking hits
3-4 Grav-gun bike teams with assault bike (MM)
2 TFC's and a Stormtalon

Tau:
Buffmander without guns
Kroot bubblewrap
Missileside team with missl drones

It lacks air superiority, but does have table control. What missilesides+buffmander can't kill, the grav-teams will. I'm considering fielding something like this (ie. acquiring Tau models), but don't expect it to be fun to face in friendly games.

And to those who think it's cool to "get back at you" for Tau being weaker and now can be perceived as being almost OP, how is that good for the game? Just look at the competitive lists, they are rather limited.

It gets quite boring to see Taudar, Eldau, TaoTao and whatnot with the occassional GK/Necron/Daemons/CSM. Let's see what Codexes Orks and Tyranids can offer and I expect/hope Codex BA to hit the shelves soon enough, being a BA player.

I might have my plan nailed down in my head... testing it is going to be the only way to get results.

One thing people miss out are the pirahnas, fast skimmer that can take out a maulerfiend? Yes please!, Take 3 and get out the tear cup...

Puscifer wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
If tau evaporate your MCs, you are doing something wrong.
Killing one per turn is within the realm of reason, but when you have 4-5 of them, and you spawn hordes of minions, and reach into charge range by turn 2 with multiple squads and even more squads in turn 3 (as I've seen done to me too often), killing an MC every turn is not enough.

I'd love to live in this magical land of yours where Tau can only kill 1 MC per turn.

Sure, ok, you kill two a turn... oh look the rest of the Nid army is nomming your face off as you couldn't kill the original two swarms of Gants or the two more that spawned on T1.

If you have unit redundancy like Nids tend to have, Tau then have a hell of a job to kill them all. You produce or field too many things for Tau to shoot at.

If the Tau Player saturates one or possibly two MC or units a turn, you'll probably kill one or two a turn... but the Tau player is on a clock. Those Nids will be in CC on T2.

If you split fire across the breadth of a Nid army, the Tau are in trouble as you won't have done enough dmg to stop the horde.

That's how Nids beat Tau.

That and a Mawloc or two. Biovores a good too.

Loosing 2 mcs a turn is really really bad when you only have 8 and the majority of your killing power is tied up in 2 4 wound flyrants.

God I wish it was that easy. Now keep in mind I was the top ranked bug player at nova (7-1) and I ended up Co winning bracket 3 with fennel (I got downpaired by mistake) so I had my fare share of success against tau. So I feel like I know how to play bugs in a competitive setting. Now I'm far from a perfect player but I can hold my own with the big boys.

That said I pretty much got tabled by tau in kill points. Keep in mind this tau player was a pretty new player as well. That is how bad the tau bug match up can be (especially in kill points.

I know not everyone plays nova format, and west coast gts play out much different then east coast gts, but look at the amount of nid players before and after adeotacon, and you can see what tau did to bugs..

Tau is competitve because it is one dimensional. There are almost no variant builds for the army and it is the new one-click win army with every single rule-bending upgrade.

Remember kids: competitive means one-click and no imagination.

 krootman. wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
If tau evaporate your MCs, you are doing something wrong.
Killing one per turn is within the realm of reason, but when you have 4-5 of them, and you spawn hordes of minions, and reach into charge range by turn 2 with multiple squads and even more squads in turn 3 (as I've seen done to me too often), killing an MC every turn is not enough.

I'd love to live in this magical land of yours where Tau can only kill 1 MC per turn.

Sure, ok, you kill two a turn... oh look the rest of the Nid army is nomming your face off as you couldn't kill the original two swarms of Gants or the two more that spawned on T1.

If you have unit redundancy like Nids tend to have, Tau then have a hell of a job to kill them all. You produce or field too many things for Tau to shoot at.

If the Tau Player saturates one or possibly two MC or units a turn, you'll probably kill one or two a turn... but the Tau player is on a clock. Those Nids will be in CC on T2.

If you split fire across the breadth of a Nid army, the Tau are in trouble as you won't have done enough dmg to stop the horde.

That's how Nids beat Tau.

That and a Mawloc or two. Biovores a good too.

Loosing 2 mcs a turn is really really bad when you only have 8 and the majority of your killing power is tied up in 2 4 wound flyrants.

God I wish it was that easy. Now keep in mind I was the top ranked bug player at nova (7-1) and I ended up Co winning bracket 3 with fennel (I got downpaired by mistake) so I had my fare share of success against tau. So I feel like I know how to play bugs in a competitive setting. Now I'm far from a perfect player but I can hold my own with the big boys.

That said I pretty much got tabled by tau in kill points. Keep in mind this tau player was a pretty new player as well. That is how bad the tau bug match up can be (especially in kill points.

I know not everyone plays nova format, and west coast gts play out much different then east coast gts, but look at the amount of nid players before and after adeotacon, and you can see what tau did to bugs..

Sorry, I don't know the Nova format, can you please tell me what it is?

I'd love to see your Nid list if possible please? I'm just starting out with them and would like some insight.

As for the Tau, I have no doubt they are powerful, but I believe that the three Tau players in my Metas are not great pilots or even list builders.

My results and wins may be skewed due to this, but as it stands, both my DW and Orks never had big trouble with Tau. Tough games, yes, but never one sided.

 Desubot wrote:

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
I assume riptides, troops, suits roughly

Pathfinders/marker lights > Troops/ethereal > the rest > riptide last

As a Tau player I will offer my advice on this. I think the first thing to do is look at the Tau army you are up against first and determine what the most important unit is that makes his army work. Now a lot of times this can be the pathfinders, but there are instances where this is not correct. Broadsides for instance with HYMP & SMS are twin linked and thus will most likely hit roughly 75% of their shots, so marker lights, albeit good, are not essential for the functionality of this unit. In a case where you opponent has Broadsides with this set-up I would make them the target priority.

I think its about identifying which unit is going to bring the pain and then taking that unit out. Of course you need to look at pathfinders and see what they are giving the other units around them and if taking them out will leave the other units at a measly BS3 without re-rolls to hit, then they are then the wise option.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
I assume riptides, troops, suits roughly

Pathfinders/marker lights > Troops/ethereal > the rest > riptide last

As a Tau player I will offer my advice on this. I think the first thing to do is look at the Tau army you are up against first and determine what the most important unit is that makes his army work. Now a lot of times this can be the pathfinders, but there are instances where this is not correct. Broadsides for instance with HYMP & SMS are twin linked and thus will most likely hit roughly 75% of their shots, so marker lights, albeit good, are not essential for the functionality of this unit. In a case where you opponent has Broadsides with this set-up I would make them the target priority.

I think its about identifying which unit is going to bring the pain and then taking that unit out. Of course you need to look at pathfinders and see what they are giving the other units around them and if taking them out will leave the other units at a measly BS3 without re-rolls to hit, then they are then the wise option.

this is again a better way to look at it.

In the majority of my Tau games the pathfinders have been highly useful to buff units on targets that need to be nuked. Actually they have only been buggered once or twice, but when combined with multiple big threats e.g. Riptides, hammerheads, broadsides they tend to fall way down the target priority list for a few players.

That is until El commander turns up with crisis suits... if we are in luck 3 marker lights on a unit usually means its dead from the suits, they then jump away giving a two-fingered salute. This then means more whining from the other side of the table.. not including the riptide trolling

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:


I agree with this. After their marker lights go down you're looking at a shooting based army that is primarily BS3.

I would argue that the thing that makes riptides and missilesides so popular is that their more survivable than most Tau units. Like I said previously, you'll struggle to just shoot down a riptide.

Tau are a chain of units that allow a player to win. If you know which link to take out first, the chain quickly falls apart.

There is another reason why Riptides and Missilesides are so popular. Their shooting isn't as inaccurate as people think they are. They have a tendency to look at them and go "Bah, they're only BS3" but they forget that Missilesides are twin linked and thus actually hit roughly 75% of the time and they also forget that the riptide has a blast weapon which use the scatter dice, so a third of the time you directly hit anyway and an extra +1" to your scatter compared to BS 4 isn't a lot either, not to mention that the Riptides second weapon is also twin linked.

People need to get out of the frame of mind where they say "Bah, its only BS3" and recognise that means nothing when the extras along with those units make a big difference in whether they hit or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 En Excelsis wrote:
Bite back all you like, but that reason has really run thin. ALL armies are more than the sum of their parts. ALL armies rely on units working together. That's not something unique to the Tau or the Eldar. In fact, it only strengthens my point that the Tau are so super-two-dimensional. Arguing that the existance of Pathfinders adds some depth to their play style is a joke. They still have a short list of unit types. Shooty units, and units that make the shooty units more shooty. Obviously Pathfinders are the later, and if you take them out first you do cripple most of the remaining forces.

This isn't true. Tau are not all about pathfinders. Have a look at Owens Tau army over at Miniwargaming and you will see he has no pathfinders in his list at all. None whatsoever. The list isn't a bad one either, so its not like he is handicapping himself. There are things in a Tau army you can do to avoid taking Pathfinders in your list if you don't want them.

1) Different source of markerlights (markerdrones, Tetra's, Skyray, Remora Drones, etc, etc.
2) Command & Control Node for twin linked weapons
3) Units with twin linked guns (Missiliesides)
4) Riptides with blast weapons. Other blast weapons in general
5) Hammerheads (BS4), even take Longstrike upgrade for BS5
6) Commanders with drone controllers to make drones within units BS5

Those little bits there make a very large difference to the effectiveness of a Tau army and its shooting without having to solely rely on markerlights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jackal wrote:
Depends on the layout of the army really.
If they use heavy ML support, take it out as soon as you can.

Removing cover, raising BS and firing seekers at you isnt much fun to be honest, so you want to get rid of that quickly.

Riptides are a strange one.
I see the point about ignoring it, but i wouldnt really try that.
Yes, its a pain to kill, but guard have enough guns to do that in a reasonable time.

Then you have tau that actually use no ML's, which seems strange, but they dont really seem to suffer that badly because they have other ways of doing the job.

Another pain unit that may not seem obvious;
Commander with 2x burst cannons, drone controller, chip, suite and other junk with 2 gun drones.
Then 12 gun drones with him aswell.
You have 8 shots from him and 28 TL shots from the drones.
And at any point he can give up shooting to make his unit ignore cover saves.

Seems a bit of a weird one, but it tends to shred basic troops pretty badly.




Main thing though, tau sit back and usually castle up.
Templates and more templates.
Even if your killing a few FW's and chipping wounds off suits, its doing something.

Also, anything with precision shots should be aiming at ethereals and fireblades as they will be boosting the shooting even more.

Sir, I exalted your post. A good explanation all round. I should point out though that I don't always sit back with my Tau. I use crisis suits with fusions in suicide deep strike fashion into the enemys zone. I also have a habit of jumping my Riptide up as well throughout the game in order to try and get line breaker but this one depends on who I'm playing and whether it is safe to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Speaking of, I find the hypocracy amusing when people state from one hand that "taudar rule the meta" and from the other hand that the TFC and land raiders are "not competitive" when they are the very things the so called "ruler of the meta" cant really handle when used properly.

as a great man once said "A dumb move is not dumb when it works."
Sure LR and TFC were subpar in the 5th meta of power armor spam and melta all over the place, but now that melta has gotten rare and 4+/5+ infantry ruin your day? these two will crush thier way to the top.

I use a bit of melta in my list and I use it for this exact reason, Landraiders. When building my list and seeing my lack of anti AV14 I had, I put some into it. I use Broadsides you see, so I only have one hammerhead tank with Longstrike in it and if he just so happens to miss or get blown up then I need a second option. So Crisis Suits with Fusions and the Riptide will take up that role if Longstrike bites the dust.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 necron99 wrote:
I just started playing Tau and have to deal with daemon players who like to play 4 FMCs running around the board so do tell...how do I kill 1 FMC a turn? A Riptide nova charging his heavy burst cannon would give him 12 rending shots (that get hot!). Attached to commander Buffy the Riptide would become TL, monster hunter and ignore cover. In most cases the MC has iron arm so will almost always be t7+ which means you will need to hit and wound on 6's, right?

When I was at Nova this year there were a ton of people playing daemons with multiple MCs and dogs running around. My first two games were against that type of build so I can only assume the Tau players (and there were a sh*t load of them) had to deal with the daemon MC lists and Tau almost always seemed to come out on top...

These lists are one of the lists that Tau will find more difficult. High toughness monsterous creactures seems to be one of our biggest weaknesses. I had trouble the other week with this very thing when I came up against a daemon player with 4 of them in an apocalypse game. I'm also now having to think about how I go about taking out a Hierophant Bio-Titan. The player down at the store who brought in his Reaver Titan has now stopped bringing that in and brings the Hirophant instead.