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Just a curious question since for 5 points more you can get a plasma cannon or ML but with bolter drill from IF CT I could see it being useful

yes, but only if they are all heavy bolter devs.

Against certain enemies it could be useful, horde armies like Orks or Nids. It also would be very good for taking out Dark Eldar vehicles.

Against power armour armies and AV 13+ they are rather useless.

I was also wondering this. with IF CT (rerolls of 1 + tank hunter) they should shred AV10 and maybe even 11.

should be decent against flying MC's too?

I feel that heavy bolters are better in 5 man tac squads. I want my heavy support to pack more of a punch. Plus, tac squads and assault squads can pack in as many flamers as I need for hordes.

the problem with them is that against av 10 you already have a bunch of option for taking them out.

Same to a lesser extent with av 11, in general they are not problems for marines to remove from the table.

The biggest offenders in the current game(from what I understand) are AV 12/13 skimmers. You want guns that can reliably get results against them. If they were STR 6 I would say maybe, however since they dont even have a chance to hurt them I would say no.

 Leth wrote:
the problem with them is that against av 10 you already have a bunch of option for taking them out.

Same to a lesser extent with av 11, in general they are not problems for marines to remove from the table.

The biggest offenders in the current game(from what I understand) are AV 12/13 skimmers. You want guns that can reliably get results against them. If they were STR 6 I would say maybe, however since they dont even have a chance to hurt them I would say no.

It's not even that good against AV11. 3+ hit, re-roll 1's. 6+ glance, re-roll failures. It actually averages worse than 50/50 to kill a rhino in the open.
I don't know about you, but I want better odds than 50/50 from my heavy support choices.

I still say go lascannons and combat squad. 2 pairs of tank hunting lascannons out of 1 heavy slot is really solid.
I would just count on bolters for bolter drill. You're bound to have a handful in any army, and honestly, giving up S9 AP2 tank hunter for a handful of re-rolls on S5 seems foolish.

-Matt

UM CT devastator+Tactical Doctrines are good for them too; re-roll 1's to hit 1 turn, Relentless first or second turn.

my config I wanna runt is 3 HB and a lascannon, having the sgt signum on the Lascannon for bs5. Starting to sound like a meh configh tho'

Unfortunately I see little use for the heavy bolter. The only time I take one is when it comes on a model that I cant upgrade it (standard Landraiders come to mind). It lacks rate of fire, it lacks decent AP. The only platform I would use them on, without upgrading, is a LRBT Punisher variant, along with a heavy stubber.... now thats good weight of fire!

Two reliable wounds against tau and eldar units is not something to sneeze at, Since they are the main meta in this current age it is not a bad idea to have some way of plucking at their scoring units from range.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Unfortunately I see little use for the heavy bolter. The only time I take one is when it comes on a model that I cant upgrade it (standard Landraiders come to mind). It lacks rate of fire, it lacks decent AP. The only platform I would use them on, without upgrading, is a LRBT Punisher variant, along with a heavy stubber.... now thats good weight of fire!

Shooting Eldar and Tau.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Unfortunately I see little use for the heavy bolter. The only time I take one is when it comes on a model that I cant upgrade it (standard Landraiders come to mind). It lacks rate of fire, it lacks decent AP. The only platform I would use them on, without upgrading, is a LRBT Punisher variant, along with a heavy stubber.... now thats good weight of fire!

Shooting Eldar and Tau.

Flamers, Collussi, Assault cannons, and regular bolters are all you need.

Edit - specially bolters with DAKKA banner!!!!

Actually, I think the assault cannon is a rather poor weapon in many ways.

There are a lot of advantages to having a 36" gun against Eldar troops, especially dire avengers.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I think the assault cannon is a rather poor weapon in many ways.

There are a lot of advantages to having a 36" gun against Eldar troops, especially dire avengers.

Agreed. 12 S5 shots at 36" range is rather respectable. Even against MEQ you'll average ~5.2 wounds before saves and against GEQ it jumps to ~6.5 wounds. They get even better with the IF chapter tactics and if you catch an Eldar unit in the open because of a bad run roll, there is generally no save.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I think the assault cannon is a rather poor weapon in many ways.

There are a lot of advantages to having a 36" gun against Eldar troops, especially dire avengers.

I love the AC. I downed a SR with my SR but it was a rending AC round that did the job, he evaded 2 blood strike missile and the MM shot. Anecdotal I know, but it's a platform with flexibility that hasn't let me down.

The assault cannon's 24" range has gotten my units into trouble over and over. It's basically an overpriced scatterlaser with less range, since you can never count on rending from a single assault cannon.

I would put a twin linked LC on it, but my current list has 4 twin linked LC and 2 regular LC, I thought it better to keep the AC for some more RoF.

The AC is okay on a Stormraven, but for terminators or razorbacks, it just fails. You can mass them on speeders, but the points are insane and you have to get within the range of everything to use them. Everytime I think about the assault cannon vs scatter laser I get kinda mad

Assault cannon VS multilaser
4 shots to 3 shots
BS 4 to BS 3
Rending no special rules
Comes in TL Not available in TL
24 inch range. To 36 inch range.

With marines firing the AC you are looking at a consistent 3 hits, wit guardsmen firing the ML you're averaging 1.5 hits. It's not as close as you think it is. Also have to remind yourself that the ML is the only decent option available only on a chimera, or sentinel. The AC is availble on multiple marine units (speeder, dreds, razors, termies, flyers, land raiders) and is often provided with several other options.

I think of the ML as a bonus weapon. If my enemy has flyers the ML is my preffered weapon to try to force a grounding.

Ok forgive my late night posting, confusing scatter laser and multi laser, but aren't the stats the same?

Except the scatter laser has an extra shot and is manned by a BS 4 dude. I really hate the assault cannon the more I think about it :(

Martel732 wrote:
Except the scatter laser has an extra shot and is manned by a BS 4 dude. I really hate the assault cannon the more I think about it :(

Oh that's right, because all eldar needed their BS increased. (Cough BS, cough)
Still isn't it Ap-. It also lacks the twin linking and the rending which does effect the stats.

I'm not saying the assault cannon isn't absolutely better. It is. But it is a far more expensive upgrade and the imperials don't have platforms like war walkers or wave serpents to spam it to death. And as I said, 24" range means a lot of other weapon systems can first strike your assault cannon.

Not if it's on a flyer platform. If it's on a Landraider, you are probably "driving close to hit with sword" anyway. On speeders you can hide being LOS blocking terrain and move to your advantage. AC is cheaper on the LSS now also, albeit BS 3.

 centuryslayer wrote:
I was also wondering this. with IF CT (rerolls of 1 + tank hunter) they should shred AV10 and maybe even 11.

should be decent against flying MC's too?

As someone who has played about 8 games with a heavy bolter dev squad, even combat squaded into 2 5 man with 2 heavy bolter eacy, I can say they are not worth it. As much as I would like to take advantage of the bolter synergy, they are rarely going to hit flying monstrous creatures (remember only reroll 1s, not across the board) and even then the most common to me at least being nids 6 toughness you need 5s. so 4 heavy bolters shooting at flying hive tyrant, 12 shots, lets say 3 hits if one of your 1s you reroll comes up a 6, then that's 1 wound.. Throw in armor saves, feel no pain, and it will not die, and its pretty lackluster. They cant hurt the main offender of killing marines flyer wise, the helldrake, and even big squads of stuff you shoot it at would be better killed with a plasma cannon.

Sorry I wanted them to be good too, but they haven't been relavent since 3rd edition.

Attack bikes with HB's sound better tbh. +1 toughness. 2 wounds per bike and jink/ability to move. And an additional tl bolter.

 centuryslayer wrote:
Attack bikes with HB's sound better tbh. +1 toughness. 2 wounds per bike and jink/ability to move. And an additional tl bolter.

This is one of those places where chapter tactics makes a big difference. Due to the price changes, I'd suggest 2xHB speeders over attack bikes these days. The used to be a 2:3 ratio, but now are 3:4. Or in points, 120 used to get you 2 speeders or 3 bikes, now 180 gets you 3 speeders or 4 bikes. But the speeders don't get chapter tactics. So for armies that it makes a difference for, the bikes get a nice boost, Putting them back ahead.

Comparing them to a dev squad, for 110 points you get 4xHBs. Which is cheaper then the other options, and has the bonus of tank hunter in an IF army.

Hm, I think that's drifting a little to much into "What's the best platform for the HB" rather then "Are HB devs worth it?"

One thing that HBs have is they are straight shots. You don't have to care how bunched up or dispersed your target is, you can take pot-shots at flyers, no scatter, just good old fashioned shooting. While the 5 points extra for the PC might seem nice, switching to a blast does have some drawbacks, in addition to the slight risk of Gets Hot!. The big problem is that the HB excels at only one thing: thinning out hordes of light infantry. But it can be effective on more targets, it's just kind of "meh" at it.

I like HBs, and take them in Dev squads myself. They might not be hyper-competitive, but they do work. And sometimes you just need to put a bunch of medium strength shots downrange. The HB does that.