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Just wondered what people's thoughts on this were. So for example if your opponent forgets his unit has counter-attack do you remind them about it, or is their own fault for not knowing/remembering their own rules? And where do you draw the line, how much of an effort do you make to help your opponent out (reminding if they forget to move a unit etc).

It is not my responsibilty to remind my opponent of their rules or call them out when they misplay in a tournament game.

Our local 40k group has a player who gets all his rules confused, not knowing how to roll his Hits, asking for my Strength when he wounds.my units, etc. When we play for fun, I ask him why he's asking me for the wrong stats or failing Hits that I know he made. When we play in a tournament, I supply my numbers and rules, but his army is his problem.

I've always been in favor of reminding people of non-optional rules they have, for fun or in tournament play. 40k is a complicated game and not everyone has enough time or mental real estate to dedicate to this game to get all the rules right all the time. Plus it feels nice to win because I outplayed my opponent and not because he forgot a rule. Also, I recently suffered a minor stroke and my memory has been a little shaky so I can hope that a little karma will come back my way regarding remembering all my rules...

Coming from a MTG background, in a tournament I would let my opponent forget his rules unless it benefits me. At a competitive level I'm a player, not a baby sitter. In a friendly game I'm the first person to make sure my opponent has all their rules right (As the manager of my game store I often chime in on other friendly games if I know both players as well). In for fun games or practice games it benefits EVERYONE to play correctly. It teaches the game, it creates a friendly environment, and makes sure every one is playing on an even field.

I try to remind people of their rules, but man, I have a hard enough
time with my own.

 gardeth wrote:
I've always been in favor of reminding people of non-optional rules they have, for fun or in tournament play. 40k is a complicated game and not everyone has enough time or mental real estate to dedicate to this game to get all the rules right all the time. Plus it feels nice to win because I outplayed my opponent and not because he forgot a rule. Also, I recently suffered a minor stroke and my memory has been a little shaky so I can hope that a little karma will come back my way regarding remembering all my rules...

100% agreed!

Is the forgotten rule a "may" or a "shall". If may, then I wouldn't have any problem not reminding or not being reminded.

If it was a shall, then both players would technically be cheating, regardless of whose benefit it was.

Shotgun wrote:
If it was a shall, then both players would technically be cheating, regardless of whose benefit it was.

I think it's best to stay away from the "c-word", but yes, this is what bothers me.

If there is an automatic, non-optional effect that has triggered, even if it's not for your army, and you know it and pretend not to... that's just not cool.

If it's optional, it's your call. But if it's automatic, you shouldn't be pretending not to know the rules. That's a personal pet peeve of mine and is at the very least poor sportsmanship, imo.

On a tourney i have a rule of thumb i expect of my selve what i expect of my opponent during the game i tell my opponent nothing of his army (you should know your army so should he) untill the game has finished afther the game if we have time ill suggest to look up some things he has forgotten.

But in a friendly game i would remember my opponent of the things he forgets.

I will remind the opponent of rules etc in normal games, but I will only do it so many times. There's a difference to reminding the player once or twice and then keep telling them all the time.

I'm with Gardeth. There's a difference between reminding an opponent of something he could choose to do, and something that's non-optional. If someone is forgetting to re-roll their twin-linked guns, it's just decent sportsmanship to remind them.

If they're choosing not to hit&run out of a combat, well, that's on them...

It would really depend on the situation. If it is a case in which his rule should have come into play regardless of whether I would like them to or not like twin-linked or an invul save then I would feel obliged to remind him money on the line or not. If he chooses not to make use of some of those extra rules like fleet when charging me that's on him.

 Redbeard wrote:
I'm with Gardeth. There's a difference between reminding an opponent of something he could choose to do, and something that's non-optional. If someone is forgetting to re-roll their twin-linked guns, it's just decent sportsmanship to remind them.

If they're choosing not to hit&run out of a combat, well, that's on them...

This is the distinction as I see it, too

It depends on who I'm playing. In a friendly game I will for sure because it looses its fun for them if I'm stomping someone because they forgot something. In the local shop tournaments are open to everyone including the younger crowd. It's not evenfun for me to beat up on them so I try to coach them a little if they really need it.

Non-optional rules, really both players need to vigilant about it, whether it benefits them or not. Optional rules or abilities, I'll give a reminder or two in a friendly game. In a tournament though, I expect a little higher level of play.

Each player is responsible for knowing their own rules and army. If you go into a game with the attitude that they do not remind me of any rules that are beneficial to me, and I do not remind you of any rules that are beneficial to you, we are both equal.

It is not fair to me if I remind my opponent of all the rules that benefit them, but then when I forget a rule if my opponent (who might not know the rules very well) says nothing to me.

If they forget a rule that is on them, it is not my place to remind people of their rules, or know their codex. At the end of the game you might want to tell them what they forgot, so they will learn and remember it for next time, but that is up to them.

 Blackmoor wrote:
Each player is responsible for knowing their own rules and army. If you go into a game with the attitude that they do not remind me of any rules that are beneficial to me, and I do not remind you of any rules that are beneficial to you, we are both equal.

I do not believe this statement is true. For one thing, one person may have more beneficial rules to remember. For another, one person may simply have a better memory.

It is not fair to me if I remind my opponent of all the rules that benefit them, but then when I forget a rule if my opponent (who might not know the rules very well) says nothing to me.

This, I agree with.

However...

In a tournament setting, if I am faced with an opponent who takes this approach, I am going to slow down my play so that I don't miss something. Given the issue so many tournaments have lately with games finishing on time, I'd rather work with my opponent to create an atmosphere where we both treat the rules as a neutral party, not an edge to be gained or lost due to faulty memories, rushed play, or even over consumption of alcohol.

Games don't need to be antagonistic from the get go, and I've found that most people, if you demonstrate that you're not trying to pull a quick one on them, will be equally willing to not pull a quick one on you.

That, plus, I'd rather win a game because of my decisions, than because my opponent forgot a rule.

Its a personal thing. For myself, if there is a rule that would kick in automatically that they are not using (i.e. they forget to roll FNP or something similar), I feel personally obligated to remind them. That's an attitude that I carry over from Fantasy that I admit does not translate well into the 40k community. I do not expect the same in return, for reasons Blackmoor stated, but I would feel like a turd getting a cheap win against someone because they forgot a rule.

If I like my opponent, I will try to make sure they don't mess anything up.

Otherwise, if your an ass or run some net list, fail all you can.

I will remind my opponent of rules if I remember them; I shall not lose sleep if we both forget.

Totally agree with Redbeard and Phazael's statements here... but I come from a fantasy background, too, although i didn't really make the connection that it might be viewed differently (more likely to remind the opponent of an automatic rule) in fantasy.

If you know you're more well versed in the game then it wouldn't be a bad idea to remind your opponent of all the rules. It's a game; you're in it to have fun and meet people (I hope); you'd be providing excellent sportsmanship; lastly, you will build better connections with people/strangers. I don't think it should be all about winning. Don't get me wrong, I love playing competitvely, but I also like to make sure everyone is getting the most out of it too. Say you walk your opponent through a lot of rules that he would have forgotten on his own or maybe you point some things out he would miss. Next time you play that guy he is going to retain more of that and remember that you were a cool, nice guy that helped him. Next time he plays another opponent he's going to be a better matchup, thus, you just gave somebody more experience points, persay. Thus, you're contributing a service to increase the skill level in your local meta/tournament all by just being friendly and there to have fun. In return you have increased the chances of you and your locals of having more intellectually stimulating and fun games. If everyone did this, nobody would need to remind anyone of rules. It's like starcraft- doesn't it feel better to EARN a victory against a WORTHY opponent rather than an easy win or cheese victory?

I think you should always remind people of stuff they forget or might have missed. On the subject of it might help them out to a victory, all I can say is that if you are really that great of a player it should not matter, you should be winning on tactics not rules.

If an opponent forgets a rule for his own army, then that's his own fault. He should be remembering those kind of things, it's his army, after all.

I think the issue comes when it's rules in your own army. So, for example, if your opponent was to move a melta-heavy squad up to your Avatar of Khaine, obviously meaning to shoot at it. Do you point out the Avatar is immune to melta? But even then, I don't think you're obliged to.

 Jabeedo wrote:
Coming from a MTG background, in a tournament I would let my opponent forget his rules unless it benefits me.

This rule has changed recently. It used to be mandatory for you to alert your opponent of a missed trigger. It still is illegal to not remind your opponent of an ability of a creature (such as if they put an indestructible creature into their grave yard when it shouldn't have died, etc.)

If your opponent has missed out on applying a non-optional rule, such as a morale check for 25% casualties in a phase, or getting +1 attack for two ccw's, or whatever, then you are obligated to point it out, whether it is to your benefit or not.
That comes under the category of 'playing the game by the rules'.
Deliberately not playing a game by it's rules to your advantage is behaviour that does have a name that starts with a 'C' and ends with 'heating'. You can rationalize it all you like, but at the end of the day you have made a conscious decision to have the game rules broken to your advantage. It's not a form of cheating that can be penalized, so it's entirely to be regulated by the conscience of each player.
The justification of 'he should know the rules better' is pretty feeble. If YOU know the rules better, you should be playing by them.
Reminding a player that he can choose to use 'hit & run' or that he can use a krak grenade on a monstrous creature in close combat, or any other optional rule or wargear, that is a courtesy that you do not have to extend to an opponent unless you are feeling charitable towards them.

 The Shadow wrote:
If an opponent forgets a rule for his own army, then that's his own fault. He should be remembering those kind of things, it's his army, after all.

I think the issue comes when it's rules in your own army. So, for example, if your opponent was to move a melta-heavy squad up to your Avatar of Khaine, obviously meaning to shoot at it. Do you point out the Avatar is immune to melta? But even then, I don't think you're obliged to.

You don't have to remind your opponent that the Avatar is immune to Melta, but you have to tell him that in the first place. So if you make it blindingly clean turn 1, and he moves a MM attack bike towards it turn 3, then that's his problem. But if you expect him to know it and then tell him mid-shooting phase, you're a jerk.

I tell my opponents everything at the beginning of the game. And if he asks, I'll tell him again. But if he forgets that I have Iron Arm on for T7 (and I mark these out) and shoots lasguns at me, forgetting that Strength 3 doesn't wound T7, I won't tell him until he's in the shooting phase.

I am starting to feel that MTG players are the ones I don't wanna play against. They take competitive play to a level beyond the threshold of mutual fun.

MTG players are largely just gamers. It's just that when there's events with hundreds of thousands of dollars at stake, they use tightly defined rules. This doesn't impact people playing casually at Friday Night Magic events at all - except that the precise rules mean they can resolve disputes.

GW would do well to learn from WotC in that regard. Having well defined rules does not mean a game cannot be played casually.

Did Stormin Norman call the general of the republican guard and tell him he is deploying his tanks wrong in Desert Storm & we were annihilating them left and right? NO! this is a war game, on some friendly level you can help out your friend if he is new or ignorant, but playing a regular opponent, if they forget to add extra attack for charge, thats his command problem. Its not your job to make sure your opponent uses his army to it full potential. let them learn from his mistakes, it will make a much Bigger impression,