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I'd love it if an opponent would remind me about Blood Angels 'Red Thirst' at the appropriate moment just once...

I don't expect them to, but that would be a mark of true class.

 axeman1n wrote:
I am starting to feel that MTG players are the ones I don't wanna play against. They take competitive play to a level beyond the threshold of mutual fun.

How so? There's only been 2 people who mentioned being MTG players, and I cited actual rules where you must be honest with your opponent.

I usually will if it is a new player or perhaps the old player that has not played in awhile or trying out a new army.

Well this is in the tournament section, so if its in a tournament it is their job to remember things. However, outside of a tournament I will always remind them of their options or things they have forgotten if need be.
Unless they are rude... Then they can go play somewhere else.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 axeman1n wrote:
I am starting to feel that MTG players are the ones I don't wanna play against. They take competitive play to a level beyond the threshold of mutual fun.

How so? There's only been 2 people who mentioned being MTG players, and I cited actual rules where you must be honest with your opponent.

MtG has much tighter rules, thousands upon thousands of cards with varying levels of interactions, FAQs so long you'd need half a wing of the Library of Congress to fill, and strict;y defined rule set that addresses almost anything and everything that is played.

A higher level tournament in MtG IS serious business. You need to know what your doing, else stringent rules might find you disqualified for not playing by the strict interpretation of the rules. But you work your way up to that point in lesser tournaments with the gamut of people from bestest buddies to WAAC TFGs that you learn how to deal with.

But normally MtG is fun and not as leaky rulewise as WH40k.

The fact that you have to ask the question is answer enough.

40k is serious business.

 CaptainJay wrote:
Just wondered what people's thoughts on this were. So for example if your opponent forgets his unit has counter-attack do you remind them about it, or is their own fault for not knowing/remembering their own rules? And where do you draw the line, how much of an effort do you make to help your opponent out (reminding if they forget to move a unit etc).

In a friendly, I point stuff out. Sure.

In a tournament, know your gak.

I think people who don't know the rules so well should probably get more friendly games in before they move in to tournament play. If they still struggle, they should make themselves handy reference cards. It's nice that in WH40k the newer codexes have added a reference section at the back with rules in more detail and not just stats, etc.

That said generally I remind people if they miss something. I don't want to win because you forgot you paid 60pts to give that guy an invulnerable save. I want to win because I beat you out in a fair fight I have more fun that way anyway.

Wow this forum is all just replays now. Isn't it? Just in the short time I've been here it's all too apparent that people don't know what a search function is.

It's not like he's asking how cover works or something. It's as fair a topic for discussion as any.

Yeah, I'm just sandy lol. Anyway definitely like being helped even in competitive play. After my disastrous mistake of putting my multi-melta devastator squad shots into my buddy's avatar!

zaak wrote:
If everyone did this, nobody would need to remind anyone of rules. It's like starcraft- doesn't it feel better to EARN a victory against a WORTHY opponent rather than an easy win or cheese victory?

This, exactly. I go to GTs and stuff all the time. I don't want to win on some rules shenanigans, I want to know I won because of better tactics. I might not win every game, but I at least will (hopefully) win the one's who I beat but give info to a reason to stay with the hobby. I'd like to think that if more people did this, more people would stick with it, improving the player base as a whole. We were all new once, why not help someone out?

In a tourni i feel like it shows a lack of sportsmanship, and, depending on my opponents sportsmanship level i may or may not remind them. I played against a few TFG at tourni's that were not fun to play against and not showing anything resembling sportsmanship. They didnt get reminded of anything. However, most of the time, in tourni play and always in regular games, i feel like reminding people about stuff they forgot is honest, good game play.

For me the line is Base rules Vs codex rules.

I feel that I should remind someone of something if it occurs in the base rules of the game, whether if benefits me or not. This is because there should be a reasonable expectation that I am aware of those rules.

i.e. I declare a charge, if you don't immediately roll for overwatch, I will say, ok now you roll overwatch as it is one of the steps in the charge subphase, and willfully skipping it to me would ammount to cheating. Similarly I will remind opponents to take saves etc.

If something is in my opponents codex I don't feel that it is a reasonable expectation that I have memorized all their stats/special rules etc. (even if I have). Because it is perfectly reasonable for me not to know that say Immotek has a 3++ save, if I shoot him with an AP 2 weapon and my opponent just takes the wound....not my issue

To use a sports analogy, If I coach ultimate frisbee in a self judged league, I expect both sides to call the game rules, so that if a player runs out of bounds I expect him to call it. What I won't do is tell the opponent how to utilize his own players to win the game.

That said I have a bad habit for reminding players of everything I do remember.

To me the worst thing is people who only remind their opponents of their rules when it helps them... that is total DB in my opinion.

I have a rule about it, wrong or not you decide. If I'm playing a newbie I go out of my way to remind him of his special rules or he forgot to shoot/assault. I want the newbie to have a good experience. If I'm playing a vertern in a tournament, I'm usually curtious. I will allow them to roll a forgotten invulnerbale save, shoot a unit they forgot etc., however if I make a mistake and they stonewall me on it. Well if they want it hard core then fine.

As a pet pieve I hate meeting guys who show up to a competitive tournament saying "I'm just here playing for fun" and pulls out a Mournfang, Leadblaechers with Hellheart and Greedfist from Ogre Kingdoms. What the ????! These are the guys I stonewall as a rule, no going back no reminders. At least be honest that you built that army to punch me in the face with.

I wish 40K would import the MtG mindset here. In Magic, if you misrepresent, attempt to trick or confuse, or fail to make sure the rules are being followed as closely as you know them, you are breaking the rules. You may even be Cheating (with a capital C, because that means you get kicked out and officially ostracized from competitive play). Know the rules well still helps a ton in Magic, because it can stop you from getting into bad situations to begin with, but a player CANNOT allow another player to break the rules, or forget about them, without potentially facing penalties.

There are a ton of reasons why Magic is a successful tournament game and that 40K is not, and while this probably isn't the biggest one, I think that what I see as rampant cheating (or at least the acceptance of same) is a serious issue that would need to be overcome in order to grow.

Magic is a successful tournament game because their rules faq texts are longer than all card texts combined (ie clear rulings and support), their rules are simpler, and you cannot start a thirty minute argument over a cocked card or a card being 1/10000th of an inch away from attacking.

 Phazael wrote:
Magic is a successful tournament game because their rules faq texts are longer than all card texts combined (ie clear rulings and support), their rules are simpler, and you cannot start a thirty minute argument over a cocked card or a card being 1/10000th of an inch away from attacking.

Yes, there are more reasons than what this thread covers that Magic is more successful. I mentioned that. I think the biggest are that WotC WANTS it to be (whereas GW actively does not), Magic takes less sq ft/player and is quicker (allowing 500+ people to play 9 or more rounds in one room in one day) and that WotC supports and clarifies it's own rules.

Nothing can be done about the space and speed of 40k, so the rest of this may be moot, but if TOs agreed to work together and replace the INAT they could tighten up the sloppy rules GW makes, as well as train people to be competent judges and institute nation/worldwide penalties on cheaters. Until either GW or independent TOs do that, though, there is no chance of having a meaningful tournament circuit for 40k or WHFB.

The issue here is what amounts to cheating? How can you prove I knew you had an invul save and decided not to remind you to take it?

Beyond that cheating is much easier to see/catch in MtG, because it is a simpler game. Cards + rules. In 40k the game is Rules + models + dice + terrain + measurement....

I'm also not sure cheating is any more rampant in 40k than in MtG. I think that is a myth propagated by a very few people.

Whether or not you can be proved to have cheated is irrelevant to question of whether or not it is cheating.

+1 Karvala

I can't prove whether you used loaded dice either. We're not talking about what can be proved, it's more about, what's the decent thing to do.

I don't think it's ever cheating not to remind your opponent of something, it's just being a dick, and wanting to win so badly that you're willing to be a dick to get an advantage. I don't want to win games that way.

My opinion is that MTG gets it right by dividing rules it into two categories:

Mandatory rules are just that: mandatory. If a rule says "you must do X" then you must do it, and both players have an obligation to maintain a legal game state where X has been done. If you notice that X is not being done and stay silent because it gives you an advantage then you are cheating. Similarly, if your opponent asks you a question about something that is public knowledge (for example, the stats of your unit) you are required to give an honest answer to the question, and if you lie you are cheating.

Optional rules are just that: optional. If a rule says "you may do X" then it's perfectly acceptable for X not to happen and you'll still have a legal game state. If you notice that your opponent forgot to do X then you have no obligation to help them make a better decision.

Stupid decisions are just that: stupid decisions. If your opponent makes a bad decision then too bad for them, you have absolutely no obligation to help them plan their actions. Similarly if your opponent asks a question that is a purely matter of opinion (for example, "you'll probably win that assault, right?") then you are free to give whatever answer you like.

So, specific 40k examples:

Twin-linked is a mandatory rule on non-blast weapons. It says that you must re-roll misses, so if you knowingly allow an illegal game state where a missed attack has not been re-rolled then you are cheating and should be punished appropriately.

Twin-linked on blast weapons is an optional rule. It states that you may re-roll misses, so deciding not to re-roll a shot that hits nothing is a legal (though obviously stupid) decision and you have no obligation to say anything.

Declaring shooting against an Eldar Avatar with a unit with bolters and melta guns is just a stupid decision and you have no obligation to say anything until the unit has committed to shooting and the melta guns must be blocked from firing.

I find people don't really like it when I compare Magic to 40k, but Peregrine just laid it out a lot better than I usually can. That was pretty much perfect.

What's really annoying is players who only chirp up to remind you of a rule when it helps them. In fact it might have occurred several times then the culprit finally protests when it's not beneficial for them - that is a clear case of knowingly cheating. It's also in very poor form to argue a rule one way then another in a following game - that is also knowingly cheating. Both of these cases are obvious to most everyone.

My initial thoughts are exactly as Peregrine has laid out. If you're aware of mandatory rules, you must remind the player.

CaptainJay wrote:Just wondered what people's thoughts on this were. So for example if your opponent forgets his unit has counter-attack do you remind them about it, or is their own fault for not knowing/remembering their own rules? And where do you draw the line, how much of an effort do you make to help your opponent out (reminding if they forget to move a unit etc).

Not reminding your opponent of his own rules when it benefits you is what I call "soft cheating." It isn't technically illegal, but it's pretty shady nonetheless. The most typical example I see is And They Shall Know No Fear. Players who are new to Marines (especially ones who started with another army) often forget that they cannot be swept, and after getting caught while trying to flee combat, will simply pick up their models out of habit. Now, technically, the models aren't removed, and it is the controlling player's responsibility to know that. (It's also your responsibility to re-roll your own twin-linked shots, etc.)

If you know better though, it's still pretty underhanded to let your opponent remove the models by mistake. Cheating that you aren't technically culpable for - soft cheating.

Soft cheating is usually never acceptable in a friendly game. (I've got one opponent with whom the games are a little more cutthroat, and this sort of thing might fly there.) Even in a tournament, if my opponent has cause to know better (a veteran player, experienced with their army) I will listen to my conscience and point them in the right direction. In competitive play, I can see situations where this would be acceptable. If you're a relatively new or inexperienced player, and happen to realize your vastly superior opponent slipped up, then by all means keep your mouth shut and reap the benefits.

For me, personally? In competitive play, if it would mean the difference in degrees of my victory, I will tell my opponent. If it would change the outcome of the game, I might tell. If it would change the degree of my loss, I will probably keep my lips zipped. In any event, I hope that helps.

 Jimsolo wrote:
If you know better though, it's still pretty underhanded to let your opponent remove the models by mistake. Cheating that you aren't technically culpable for - soft cheating.

That's not "soft" cheating at all, it's just plain cheating. ATSKNF does not say that you may choose to avoid being swept, it says that the unit is not swept, period. There is no choice involved, even if you would prefer that your models be swept (for example, so they aren't locked in combat and preventing you from shooting the enemy unit). If you allow your opponent to remove the models you are allowing an illegal game state and therefore you are cheating.

(It's also your responsibility to re-roll your own twin-linked shots, etc.)

It is also your responsibility to say something if your opponent is about to create an illegal game state by not re-rolling a miss from a twin-linked weapon. The re-roll is NOT optional, the die must be re-rolled no matter what. This is no different than moving your models an extra 1" just because you feel like it.

In a tournament setting, why is it my responsibility to not only know your rules, but remind you when and how to use them? Once money hits the table, I'm worrying about my rules and my tactics. If I have to remind you of how the rules work for your armyas well, it's burning time and mental work. I volunteer rules and stats for my army, that's just courteous. But I shouldn!t have to pkay your army and mine.

TL/DR: don't play tournaments if you don't grasp the rules.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
In a tournament setting, why is it my responsibility to not only know your rules, but remind you when and how to use them?

Because if you knowingly allow an illegal action to occur then you are cheating.