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 Exergy wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Creeperman wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
6th edition has destroyed the Las/plas option with having the Plasma gets hot effect the vehicle(More-so with the twin-linking then you would expect at a 5.555% chance instead of the 2.7777% chance of a T-L BS5) and making you snap-fire one of the 2 weapons. Also if you are trying to hit with the plasmas snap-firing you only have a 2.7777% chance to hit(With a now 13.8888% chance to overheat).

Where are you getting those numbers for Gets Hot! overheats?

First, by typing the decimal point in the wrong place.

Then by doing the math incorrectly to begin with.

A twin-linked bs4 weapon gets hot 2.777% of each shot getting hot; that is 1/3 missing, and then 1/6th of those re-rolls causing a test, and 1/2 of those causing a hull point loss.

So you are just as likely to hurt yourself with each shot as you are to hit the target.

not quite
each shot has first has a 1/6 chance to hit first. Then assuming you miss(5/6) chance you have another 1/6 chance to hit or overheat. The chance to overheat or hit on the second shot is the same, but 16% of the time you are never getting to the twinlinked reroll.

In all you have a 30.5% chance to hit and a 13.9 chance to overheat. More than twice as likely to hit as you are to get hot.

Having to wound and then probably facing cover or a ++ save you are talking just as likely to get hot as to KILL something.

Still not seeing it. You have a 1/36 chance to trigger Gets Hot! on each shot, BS is irrelevant in this instance. From page 37, under Gets Hot! and Re-rolls, the re-roll only triggers Gets Hot! if the second roll is also a one, therefore by implication a regular miss on the first roll will never trigger it. After that, you still have a 50% chance of taking no damage. So 1/6 * 1/6 * 1/2 = 1/72, or 1.3889%.

Exergy, that is for both Snap shot-ing and overheating together. My second math was separate. but thank you for reminding me how I got my original numbers

Creeper; you do not have a 1/36 chance to overheat because if you Hit with the first roll; then you do not roll a second to see if you still overheat(you already haven't).

So in the case of normal attacks(no snap shot) you have a 2.777% chance to overheat.

In the case of Snap shots you only have a 2.777% chance to hit and yes, a whopping 6.944% chance to lose a hull point(5/6 reroll, 1/6 of those get hot, 1/2 of those drop a hull point, so 83.333% reroll times 16.666% get hot divided by 2 = 6.944%)

I did forget in my original numbers that only half of the Gets hot results(13.888% of shots fired) end up a lost hull point.

Above is correct. With twin link and gets hot you have to take note that the first throw is meaningless for getting something hot.

This has to be told twice until it might hit most people in the right place.

The first throw of Twin-Linked is meaningless for gets hot mechanic, except it has a probability to stop whole process and this is when you roll a hit and in cases of snap shots it is 1/6 as the only result of the results available (1,2,3,4,5 or 6) that will cause a hit is 6.

Now if you anything else than 6 the process continues.

Now you have 1/6 probability to get hot.

Therefore instead of taking note the probability of getting hot in first roll we must take note of in what cases you get to re roll, and this is 5/6 of cases. Now we just checkthe probability to get hot in the reroll, which is 1/6 of the possible results.

Now you can just do the math 5/6x1/6 =5/36 which is 13,89%

The above is not correct. Unless you roll a one initially, you cannot trigger Gets Hot! at all. Even if you miss on a two and get a one on the re-roll, you do not meet the requirements of rolling a one to hit and also rolling a one on the re-roll. Again, read Gets Hot! and Re-rolls on page 37, it is very clear that both the initial die and also the re-roll must be ones to trigger an overheat. Therefore, 1/6 chance of rolling a one, followed by a 1/6 chance of rolling a second one equals a 1/36 chance of overheating, and a 1/72 chance of taking a glancing hit.

Weird, but true after reading. This is the only case in 40K rules where the result of a initial roll needs to be considered even after the re-roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: so 1/6x1/6=1/36

I suspect it might have been intentional to prevent some kind of situation where twin-linking a weapon actually makes it worse. Or it could be GW's usual slapdash writing at work again, only this time with the happy coincidence of making some kind of unintentional sense.

I wonder how many Plasmagunners die in vain because of GW's take on re-rolls and the fact that rulebook says that you can only re-roll same throw once and the re-roll takes the place of the original result always, but then you have this USR which breaks that saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But what is the reason for template Gets Hot to stop firing and getting a wound if the initial roll is 1 with the twin linked rule. Is Plasma Cannon such low tech that it can be compared to nuclear power plants at USSR.

Creeperman wrote:
The above is not correct. Unless you roll a one initially, you cannot trigger Gets Hot! at all. Even if you miss on a two and get a one on the re-roll, you do not meet the requirements of rolling a one to hit and also rolling a one on the re-roll. Again, read Gets Hot! and Re-rolls on page 37, it is very clear that both the initial die and also the re-roll must be ones to trigger an overheat. Therefore, 1/6 chance of rolling a one, followed by a 1/6 chance of rolling a second one equals a 1/36 chance of overheating, and a 1/72 chance of taking a glancing hit.

The gets hot and rerolls rule only comes into effect when the weapon "gets hot"(which is a separate term within the gets hot rule stating that the model receives a wound or loses a hull point; it is the first line in the beginning of the column).

when rerolling a regular miss you are rerolling the to hit roll and thus will "get hot" as normal on a roll of 1.

The ability to reroll does in fact make it worse.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
The above is not correct. Unless you roll a one initially, you cannot trigger Gets Hot! at all. Even if you miss on a two and get a one on the re-roll, you do not meet the requirements of rolling a one to hit and also rolling a one on the re-roll. Again, read Gets Hot! and Re-rolls on page 37, it is very clear that both the initial die and also the re-roll must be ones to trigger an overheat. Therefore, 1/6 chance of rolling a one, followed by a 1/6 chance of rolling a second one equals a 1/36 chance of overheating, and a 1/72 chance of taking a glancing hit.

The gets hot and rerolls rule only comes into effect when the weapon "gets hot"(which is a separate term within the gets hot rule stating that the model receives a wound or loses a hull point; it is the first line in the beginning of the column).

when rerolling a regular miss you are rerolling the to hit roll and thus will "get hot" as normal on a roll of 1.

The ability to reroll does in fact make it worse.

Except the Gets Hot rule specifies that to trigger an overheat on a re-roll you must roll two ones in a row.

Gets Hot and Re-rolls

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS 6+, or Twin-linked), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

(emphasis mine)

If the re-roll is not also a 1, regardless of whether the first or second roll wasn't a 1, you are explicitly told not to suffer the wound (or glancing hit). This rule section is applicable because you re-rolled To Hit, and (presumably) rolled a 1, thus you must follow the rule as written. If both rolls were a 1, you suffer the effects (either a wound or glancing hit), otherwise you don't. What part of this is ambiguous?

Creeperman is right, this is really simple math and trying to look at it any other way than 1/36 confuses people.

Twin-linking in this case, AND to my knowledge every other case, will NEVER provide a downside /w get's hot.

It only "gets hot" on a successive roll of 1's.

36 possibilities when rolling 1 dice then another, only 1 of those possibilities triggers get's hot!

The rule is in place as to not hurt players who use TL weapons, a good rule. Keep it in mind. Small things like that are what make a fantastic tournament player. Can't oversee them.

As for the threads subject, I really like Razor's and how they are priced. Disembarking a group of Melta equipped marines and blowing up a vehicle is pretty devastating.

Use hit and run tactics with them, choose when to strike.

The key is to not isolate your opponents anti-vehicle weapons.

Either saturate your army with vehicles or none at all, you need to blank either your opponents anti-infantry OR anti-vehicle weapons as best you can.

Trukks on paper are amazing, fast open topped vehicles at the cheap, but always just get destroyed first turn because the Ork army doesn't have a ton of good vehicle options.

Hopefully that changes : )

Creeperman wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
The above is not correct. Unless you roll a one initially, you cannot trigger Gets Hot! at all. Even if you miss on a two and get a one on the re-roll, you do not meet the requirements of rolling a one to hit and also rolling a one on the re-roll. Again, read Gets Hot! and Re-rolls on page 37, it is very clear that both the initial die and also the re-roll must be ones to trigger an overheat. Therefore, 1/6 chance of rolling a one, followed by a 1/6 chance of rolling a second one equals a 1/36 chance of overheating, and a 1/72 chance of taking a glancing hit.

The gets hot and rerolls rule only comes into effect when the weapon "gets hot"(which is a separate term within the gets hot rule stating that the model receives a wound or loses a hull point; it is the first line in the beginning of the column).

when rerolling a regular miss you are rerolling the to hit roll and thus will "get hot" as normal on a roll of 1.

The ability to reroll does in fact make it worse.

Except the Gets Hot rule specifies that to trigger an overheat on a re-roll you must roll two ones in a row.

Gets Hot and Re-rolls

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS 6+, or Twin-linked), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

(emphasis mine)

If the re-roll is not also a 1, regardless of whether the first or second roll wasn't a 1, you are explicitly told not to suffer the wound (or glancing hit). This rule section is applicable because you re-rolled To Hit, and (presumably) rolled a 1, thus you must follow the rule as written. If both rolls were a 1, you suffer the effects (either a wound or glancing hit), otherwise you don't. What part of this is ambiguous?

That is not a specific statement that you have to roll 2 one; you are extrapolating such a requirement.

And you are right, in the case where the first to hit roll "Gets hot".

Gets Hot and Rerolls rule only occurs when the first roll to hit gets hot. When you are rerolling a non-gets hot result you default to the fact that you are rolling a to-hit roll; and what happens when your to-hit roll result is a 1? That's right, it gets hot.

BRB page 37 gets hot wrote: When firing a gets hot weapon, roll to hit as normal.For each To Hit roll of 1, the firing model immediately suffers a Wound...

when rerolling a miss are you making a to hit roll?

You have to take the gets hot and rerolls in context.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
That is not a specific statement that you have to roll 2 one; you are extrapolating such a requirement.

And you are right, in the case where the first to hit roll "Gets hot".

Gets Hot and Rerolls rule only occurs when the first roll to hit gets hot. When you are rerolling a non-gets hot result you default to the fact that you are rolling a to-hit roll; and what happens when your to-hit roll result is a 1? That's right, it gets hot.

Are you trying to suggest that the To Hit (re-)roll is somehow separate from the Gets Hot (re-)roll? That completely flies in the the face of the rule itself. The Gets Hot special rule tells you exactly how to adjudicate re-rollable weapons with the Gets Hot special rule. Why would you use a different set of rules for it?

Creeperman wrote:
The above is not correct. Unless you roll a one initially, you cannot trigger Gets Hot! at all. Even if you miss on a two and get a one on the re-roll, you do not meet the requirements of rolling a one to hit and also rolling a one on the re-roll. Again, read Gets Hot! and Re-rolls on page 37, it is very clear that both the initial die and also the re-roll must be ones to trigger an overheat. Therefore, 1/6 chance of rolling a one, followed by a 1/6 chance of rolling a second one equals a 1/36 chance of overheating, and a 1/72 chance of taking a glancing hit.

WOW! I never noticed that before. The rules are very clear on this as written. Nice find.

Yes they are, when taken in context; which is that it is talking about an initial roll of 1; not any miss. any miss with a reroll is a roll to hit that the basic rules cover; a roll of 1 on any miss results in an over heat as well.

Kel who are you talking to? I can't figure out what "Yes they are" is in response to.

Moving away from the overheat discussion, would the TLLC version be better used behind an ADL or as a mobile gun platform supporting a Rhino assault?

 minigun762 wrote:
Moving away from the overheat discussion, would the TLLC version be better used behind an ADL or as a mobile gun platform supporting a Rhino assault?

Depends on your opponent. I will drive my lasback closer if my 5 tacticals with flamer and power sword can do some good over that way.

 WildeThing wrote:
Do you just deploy them on their own to use as a tank in their own right, or to transport the troops to a better vantage point. What are the pros and cons of using a RB over a rhino?

Razorbacks hare having a hard time in today's meta. Eldar, Tau, and Necrons have tremendous amounts of STR 6/7 firepower which causes AV11 tanks to just evaporate. The razorback has not changed much (if at all) in cost since 5th edition when it was much more appropriately priced.
So when you start increasing the firepower-per-point of other vehicles, yet leave the razorback stagnant, it goes from being an good tank to being a subpar one fairly quickly.

If you want to play with them, and acknowledge they are not good units and you will be facing a disadvantage against your opponents then you want to use them as transports with your unit deployed outside it.
You will keep your guys next to the razorback shooting at range with their heavy weapon. If there is only 1 squad member left in the squad, you will want to hop into the razorback and try to survive so you can either deny KP or claim objectives (depending on the mission)

So if you have a razor back kit with the option of heavy bolter or laz gun which would be better over all

Depends on the rest of your list.

If you need more anti infantry; the heavy bolters. If you need more anti-tank, the lascannons

Take off the turret and use it as a Rhino. Spend the points on better wargear/vehicles.

I keep seeing this mantra: Razors suck now cause they cost more, and they don't fufill their purpose.

So, you can have a rhino that can transport 5-10 marines who can hop out and snapshot a heavy weapon and fire their bolters and special weapon, or you can have a razor that can transport 5 or so marines who can hop out, have fire support from the Razor weapon, and fire their bolters and special weapon, and if the enemy shoots the Razor, can then fire its heavy weapon next turn, having not been wiped out ( unless the enemy has enough firepower to do both). But if the enemy shoots the squad, the Razor lives to shoot again....


I'm not seeing why people say not to take them. I think it is all in the context of the tactics and build of the army. I'd rather have twin linked lascannons in my backfield than a las cannon on a tac squad.

General Hobbs wrote:

I keep seeing this mantra: Razors suck now cause they cost more, and they don't fufill their purpose.

So, you can have a rhino that can transport 5-10 marines who can hop out and snapshot a heavy weapon and fire their bolters and special weapon, or you can have a razor that can transport 5 or so marines who can hop out, have fire support from the Razor weapon, and fire their bolters and special weapon, and if the enemy shoots the Razor, can then fire its heavy weapon next turn, having not been wiped out ( unless the enemy has enough firepower to do both). But if the enemy shoots the squad, the Razor lives to shoot again....


I'm not seeing why people say not to take them. I think it is all in the context of the tactics and build of the army. I'd rather have twin linked lascannons in my backfield than a las cannon on a tac squad.

People are reading too much into the increased base point cost. Unless you were running TL-HB Razors before, the cost of any of the other variants is exactly the same (or 10 points cheaper for TL-HF) as it was in 5th edition. They are used in exactly the same way, except that now you can't jump out of a stationary tank and charge in this edition, which you probably didn't want to do anyhow. They still work just fine for armor saturation, backfield fire support, or mobile cover. Some people carp about its crappy durability, but every lascannon or multi-melta shot that goes to kill a 75 point transport is one lascannon or multi-melta that isn't shooting up your flyers, Predators, or Land Raiders. If it's an embedded heavy weapon, that's also one whole squad that isn't mowing down your marines this turn.