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I've looked and looked for a discussion about Vanguard vets in the new SM codex, as I really want to see what people think of them now. Some people at my local GW store have tried running them, usually something crazy like 8 in a stormraven without jump packs, typically all with a power weapon and storm shield. Obviously that doesn't work so great as it they are not guaranteed to be In assault until turn 3 at the earliest, and stuffing that many points in reserves is unreliable unless you have a coms relay, or you are using the Ultramarine characters that buff reserves.

My thoughts on the Vanguard vets are that they are good, but only if you play them conservatively. My initial wish for them was to deepstrike alongside a sternguard squad, using one of the ways I already mentioned to ensure they come in together. That would give the opponent two targets, and the sternguard wound be kitted out with pistols, probably grav to avoid gets hot, so they wouldn't waste a round of shooting. Ran that way, however, I would be better off with sternguard. The second idea I had was much better, at least IMO. Run six of them in a stormraven, with jump packs. Three have storm shields, the sgt is naked with bp/cs, and two have the power fist/lightning claw combo. This comes to under 250 points, plus the cost of the stormraven. Using a reserve modifier, I think this could be a good way of clearing out pesky backfield units like scouts, devastarors and other things that typically don't like to be charged. The hammer of wrath attacks would make up for the loss of an attack from the stormshield, and the sgt should have enough smacks to snipe other sgts in challenges reducing the units leadership and having them flee, preferably off the table.

That's what I've got, but how does this hold up?

For the targets you are looking at, a regular assault squad could do the same thing for far cheaper. Two flamers or meltas followed by a charge will clean up just as well. If you really want to use Vanguard in this role, drop the storm shields. You'll rarely need them for the amount of points they cost.

I run a Raven Guard army so their chapter tactics gel well with anything with a jump pack or is infantry. The ability to reroll missed wounds on HOW attacks is money as is essentially having fleet to get into combat thanks to being able to use the jump packs in the movement and the assault phase.

I kit mine out with 2 SS/TH and 2 pairs of LC. The vet sergeant has a bolt pistol and a power sword. I added 5 more to the squad which are primarily kitted out with default gear with the exception of a single power fist and grav pistol (The GP is just because I wanted to model a dude with the gunslinger set up).

I play Blood Angels, so it's different again (and generally worse) but the Heroic Intervention is their main benefit, as far as I see it. Therefore, I wouldn't stick them in a Stormraven, but would have them deep strike in and hit something important. They are expensive (really so if you throw in the Stormraven as a delivery device) so you need to have a specific task for them to perform can cannot be performed by a regular assault squad as @Panzerleader said.

They do not work well with the current Blood Angels codex. (just for the record) But I've got some cool-looking and well-painted models, so I use them anyway sometimes just for that reason. Pretty much gonna lose anyway with BA, so why not look good doing it?

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
I play Blood Angels, so it's different again (and generally worse) but the Heroic Intervention is their main benefit, as far as I see it. Therefore, I wouldn't stick them in a Stormraven, but would have them deep strike in and hit something important. They are expensive (really so if you throw in the Stormraven as a delivery device) so you need to have a specific task for them to perform can cannot be performed by a regular assault squad as @Panzerleader said.

They do not work well with the current Blood Angels codex. (just for the record) But I've got some cool-looking and well-painted models, so I use them anyway sometimes just for that reason. Pretty much gonna lose anyway with BA, so why not look good doing it?

I have to disagree with you. VV are the BEST in a BA army. Deepstrike with JP and Declare Heroic, since the BA version still lets you assualt. Whats messing them up in C:SM armys is the fact they can't do this anymore. They are ment to tie up enemy units and should be used as such.

Old heroic intervention was very overrated. Especially for the price.

If you had some locator beacons on the table, and a couple lightning claws and melta bombs in the squad, they could really wreck face with a late game arrival. Expensive, but they could bring the noise sometimes, especially because people didn't expect them.

Nowadays, unless you are going to give them several meltabombs and have them go vehicle/monstrous creature hunting, I would leave them at home.

Edit: Unless you're Raven Guard, in which case they could still be decent.

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
I play Blood Angels, so it's different again (and generally worse) but the Heroic Intervention is their main benefit, as far as I see it. Therefore, I wouldn't stick them in a Stormraven, but would have them deep strike in and hit something important. They are expensive (really so if you throw in the Stormraven as a delivery device) so you need to have a specific task for them to perform can cannot be performed by a regular assault squad as @Panzerleader said.

They do not work well with the current Blood Angels codex. (just for the record) But I've got some cool-looking and well-painted models, so I use them anyway sometimes just for that reason. Pretty much gonna lose anyway with BA, so why not look good doing it?

I have to disagree with you. VV are the BEST in a BA army. Deepstrike with JP and Declare Heroic, since the BA version still lets you assualt. Whats messing them up in C:SM armys is the fact they can't do this anymore. They are ment to tie up enemy units and should be used as such.

Agree completely, the loss of Heroic Intervention is what makes them a big disappointment for me in the new SM dex. Yes they got cheaper, but a VV with two lightning claws is 52 points compared to a termie with the same at 40. The only reason to bring them was Heroic Intervention. I still ally in BA just for this with a squad of scouts and a divination libby.

How would substituting sternies for VV in a DP list fare? Just curious

 jetstumpy wrote:
I think this could be a good way of clearing out pesky backfield units like scouts, devastarors and other things that typically don't like to be charged.

If this is all you want to do, then naked vanguard vets with jump packs are more than good enough. With 4 attacks each on the charge, plus the extra jump pack attack, they approach Death Company levels of killiness even without power weapons.

You don't need storm shields if you're not attacking monstrous creatures or dedicated assault units. Your 3+ armor save and cover/terrain should do the job (as long as you handle the usual heldrake/riptide shots in the usual ways). Especially if you're playing Ravenguard, the mobility of the jump pack allows you to use terrain very flexibly.

Deploy them on the table, and you'll be in assault turn 2 (especially Ravenguard, with or without Shrike) without having to depend on reserves rolls. You can still throw in drop pods and sternguard for target saturation, but giving vanguard vets jump packs instead of a pod is not only cheaper, it gives them mobility after their first assault.

Add meltabombs to everybody for the ability to take out monstrous creatures and heavy armor. Add a tanking character to make a deathstar.

They have two benefits:

1) the ability to free a hero from a dangerous challenge

2) the capacity to take almost any close combat gear

These need to be used to the fullest.

Two situations would be something like:

1) freeing a chapter master with the burning blade from combat with a chaos terminator lord so that s/he can wreck the face of the power-armored squad while the tricked out Vet Serg takes on The Lord with TH/SS FTW.

2) librarian is assaulted but this librarian (or other hero) brought defense heavy gear (2+ invuln/one turn armour). Libby survives first round but won't make another. In goes the group to bail them out - saving the warlord.

Basically they either 1) ensure that the hero doesn't get usefulness challenged away and/or 2) bail out defensive/utility "bait" heroes for the kill.

I'm torn between keeping VV bare-bones and having a "good big or go home" mentality with them and kitting them all out with dual LCs or whatnot, especially if you're putting Shrike in the unit. And what about at least giving the Sgt a relic blade? He's one of only three characters that can take one (others being Chapter Master and Captain) and I'd really like to take advantage of that.

Martel732 wrote:
Old heroic intervention was very overrated. Especially for the price.

Martel, you need an image, man. Especially with such a cool handle.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said, I just find everything in the current BA book expensive, and then it dies. So, yes, @Lemartes, VV are good for BA, it's just that the CODEX doesn't work very well. That was what I meant. I totally agree about the Heroic Intervention, which is why I advocated bringing them in from Deep Strike.

I just think it sucks that you can't put Dante with them, or else they LOSE the Heroic Intervention? "What? You're putting an ageless Hero in the unit? Oh, no, can't be heroic then..." His "does not scatter" rule would also help out with the VV.

Well, in hopes of a codex update someday...

I used to like using them, but now an assault squad does the job at a lot cheaper.

Well, my first thought was - why are *all* the Vanguard getting Storm Shields? You only need a couple to tank off the few high AP shots they'll get, or on the flipside, their presence can be enough to deter the opponent from bothering instead of shooting at your units.

I like the idea of keeping them fairly simple, but I don't agree that they approach Death Company levels of killiness - part of what makes Death Company so damn good is S5 on the charge, which is a bigger difference than it seems, and the ridiculously juicy rerolls a Chaplain gives them. Of course, giving the Vanguard a Chaplain (or allied Prescience Librarian) goes some way to redressing this and in my eyes is a good idea anyway. This allows you to make the most of new Heroic Intervention, by engaging two units in order to stay in combat for the following turn, but still having enough rerolls to do severe damage to both.

The problem, really, isn't their effectiveness. It's getting them into combat to begin with, in an edition that concentrates on shooting and within a Codex that only has two other viable assault units (let's not talk about Centurions) compared to a whole slew of shooty ones.

I have the old Finecast Vanguard vets, and I am considering chopping the power weapons off and putting on chainswords instead as they aren't worth it. Same with the plasma pistols but the hands on the models are really nice.

My Vt Sergeant is keeping his relic blade. I'm going to try running them with a Chapter Master with Power Axe and Shield Eternal and also a Chaplain for extra killiness. Lot of points but it's quite nasty with Zealot and Hatred.

I'm thinking of running 10 with jump packs, one thunder hammer and either a relic blade or power sword on the sergeant (can't decide!), but it feels very bare bones and I'd like to put some better weapons in the unit. Is it worth adding a third special weapon in?

The most i would use VV for now is 1)drawing the overwatch and 2)tying up units i don't want firing or moving around.

Ok I've read the responses, and here are a couple of my retorts. The reason I'm spending 30 points on stormshields is so the entire unit doesn't immediately die if the stormraven gets shot down. Plus, that way they can stand a chance if they run up against models with power weapons, or rending. I fight a lot of space wolves, and I hate just pulling models when mark of the wulfen goes off. Secondly, I typically run my assault squads in a ten man group with 2 flamers. They work great hopping up the field and taking on weaker targets, or tarpitting nastier units, but I want the vanguards so I can assault a dev squad, wipe them out and move to the next target. Historically my rolling for the assault squad, even at full strength, hasn't been enough to take on meq squads. I even ran it into a ten man tactical squad, at full strength, and lost combat. And like I said, space wolves, so an assault squad makes me even with my opponents, and I want to surpass them. Also, with the storm shields and storm raven for deployment, I want to use their multicharge ability to sweep tau gunlines. That's another popular army around me, and deepstriking doesn't work so hot against them anymore. Letting two guys with lightning claws attack several fire warrior squads would be a great way to sweep behind a tau aegis line, and maybe even catch a riptide in a sweeping advance

If I'm remembering Death Company correctly, they get 4 attacks on the charge at str5?

Vanguard Vets get 4 attacks at str4 on the charge, plus one auto-hitting str4 attack (with rerolls to wound if you're playing Ravenguard). That sounds pretty close to me, since we're talking about sending them against models of T4 and less anyway. Also I'm assuming Ravenguard (thus always giving them the Hammer of Wrath) and planning to use the chaplain.

The major problem that regular ASM have against things like space wolves, which the OP mentions he faces a lot, is that space wolves get the same number of attacks as ASM. Blood Angels too. So if you're planning to take on even basic grey hunters, you need a 2:1 or better numerical advantage to win that fight.

Vanguard Vets with the extra attack and the HoW attack can take on space wolves 1:1 and win, even without power weapons or relic blades (or storm shields). And they leave your fast attack slots open.

10 Vanguard Vets with jumppacks and nothing else costs less than a storm raven. Take two units of VV instead of one and a SR, deploy them on the table, and even if one unit gets shot up on the way in, you can assault with the other unit in turn 2 without needing to depend on storm raven survivability or unreliable reserves rolls.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
If I'm remembering Death Company correctly, they get 4 attacks on the charge at str5?

Vanguard Vets get 4 attacks at str4 on the charge, plus one auto-hitting str4 attack (with rerolls to wound if you're playing Ravenguard). That sounds pretty close to me, since we're talking about sending them against models of T4 and less anyway. Also I'm assuming Ravenguard (thus always giving them the Hammer of Wrath) and planning to use the chaplain.

The major problem that regular ASM have against things like space wolves, which the OP mentions he faces a lot, is that space wolves get the same number of attacks as ASM. Blood Angels too. So if you're planning to take on even basic grey hunters, you need a 2:1 or better numerical advantage to win that fight.

Vanguard Vets with the extra attack and the HoW attack can take on space wolves 1:1 and win, even without power weapons or relic blades (or storm shields). And they leave your fast attack slots open.

10 Vanguard Vets with jumppacks and nothing else costs less than a storm raven. Take two units of VV instead of one and a SR, deploy them on the table, and even if one unit gets shot up on the way in, you can assault with the other unit in turn 2 without needing to depend on storm raven survivability or unreliable reserves rolls.

Reserves aren't generally an issue since I will run either Tigurius or Captain Sicarius, but I do see your point ablout using more Vets and dropping the raven. I plan on trying it both ways, but I love the idea of the vets pouring out of the back of a stormraven and crushing a squad without warning.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
If I'm remembering Death Company correctly, they get 4 attacks on the charge at str5?

Vanguard Vets get 4 attacks at str4 on the charge, plus one auto-hitting str4 attack (with rerolls to wound if you're playing Ravenguard). That sounds pretty close to me, since we're talking about sending them against models of T4 and less anyway. Also I'm assuming Ravenguard (thus always giving them the Hammer of Wrath) and planning to use the chaplain.

It's 5 now, what with Rage - and S5 is a big difference over S4 in practice. Then they have FNP on top for extra gravy. They can also get the HoW attack, though admittedly they pay well over the odds for this with jump packs, though.
Now if we're assuming a Chaplain, they do get a lot closer.

Don't forget what DC pay for jump packs. They pay *5 times* what a VV does now.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
If I'm remembering Death Company correctly, they get 4 attacks on the charge at str5?

Vanguard Vets get 4 attacks at str4 on the charge, plus one auto-hitting str4 attack (with rerolls to wound if you're playing Ravenguard). That sounds pretty close to me, since we're talking about sending them against models of T4 and less anyway. Also I'm assuming Ravenguard (thus always giving them the Hammer of Wrath) and planning to use the chaplain.

It's 5 now, what with Rage - and S5 is a big difference over S4 in practice. Then they have FNP on top for extra gravy. They can also get the HoW attack, though admittedly they pay well over the odds for this with jump packs, though.
Now if we're assuming a Chaplain, they do get a lot closer.

Oh yeah, forgot about Rage. That's a fair comparison--maybe "approaching" is too strong a word. Maybe something more like "about halfway between the killiness of ASM and DC" might be closer.

VV don't have the durability of DC and aren't fearless either, but VV are cheaper. Without storm shields, VV can't serve as a tarpit. But they are effective anti-horde and effective against power-armored units of the same size and smaller. And a unit of VV can kill the crap out of any vehicles (*cough* wave serpents) they can catch, just using krak grenades.

I'd take honor guard over vanguard vets if your looking for something with some CC kick.

More durable, power weapon, has a bolter, etc....

Nobody is taking advantage of their unique ability.

As far as I'm concerned, 3 point jump packs and the extra base attack *are* their unique ability (along with the ability to take massed meltabombs).

If you're talking about the ability to take lots of power weapons, Labmouse pointed out that honor guard do that better.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, 3 point jump packs and the extra base attack *are* their unique ability (along with the ability to take massed meltabombs).

If you're talking about the ability to take lots of power weapons, Labmouse pointed out that honor guard do that better.

Remember though that unless you're running Calgar, you can only ever take one unit of HG.

If by unique ability, you mean the extra Attack still counting in Disordered Charges... this is nice, but there's not always an opportunity for it, and you need a Chaplain to take full advantage of it - otherwise the damage being split between two units means even the Vanguard can get overwhelmed in following rounds.

Glorious Intervention is hardly worth even considering. In most cases if you don't want another character taking the challenge you have the Sergeant take it anyway. For it to be useful you need to have a combat going on nearby, with an existing challenge that you don't expect your character to survive, but survive long enough to get the Vanguard in *AND* do enough damage that you'll win, otherwise the challenge continues back to the original character anyway. I don't know about you, but I have never seen this situation even come close to coming up. It must be less frequent than seeing Mandrakes on the table...

After racking my brain, I finally figured out a purpose for Vanguard.
* Edit -- Nope, that idea does not work. They are complete garbage.

Would I take them? No. Never. 5 points extra for that 'heroic intervention', and extra LD and attack is horrible. Someone was smoking weed when they came up with the point costs for that unit.