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 liturgies of blood wrote:
Eh, that's not what witchfire rules say. If it has a subtype you use those rules for targeting. It doesn't say you ignore the basic witchfire rules if it has a subtype and focussed witchfire doesn't say it hits automatically like the other subtypes do. That doesn't mean there is no roll to hit, you don't have permission to ignore it as they say it follows all the rules for witchfire with the following restriction.

The 5 or less is nothing to do with hitting, it's to do with targeting.

p69 wrote:If the witchfire does not list a subtype, or simply describes itself as a psychic shooting attack, use the rules given above to resolve it. If it has one of the following subtypes, use the rules for that subtype.

The rules given above include the to-hit roll to resolve, not just targeting.

p69 wrote:They follow all the normal rules for witchfire

Focussed witchfire also need a to-hit roll.

Sorry Rigeld, that post wasn't aimed at you.
I think you're pulling apart my post despite the fact I agree with you that focused witchfire need to roll to hit. .....

edited the above to change targeting to resolving.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Eh, that's not what witchfire rules say. If it has a subtype you use those rules for targeting. It doesn't say you ignore the basic witchfire rules if it has a subtype and focussed witchfire doesn't say it hits automatically like the other subtypes do. That doesn't mean there is no roll to hit, you don't have permission to ignore it as they say it follows all the rules for witchfire with the following restriction.

The 5 or less is nothing to do with hitting, it's to do with targeting.

I bolded the incorrect part of your post - the witchfire rules absolutely do say that the subtypes ignore the normal witchfire rules - not just for targeting. FW happens to include all the rules, so your conclusion was correct but your statements were not.

I disagree, the subtypes over-rule the basic rules mostly. Firing 2 PSAs still applies, just because the targeting and subtype specific rules are different doesn't mean the basic rules don't apply where there is no direct conflict (basic vs advanced).

If Nova don't follow basic witchfire powers (where there is no conflict) what does it count as having fired?

rigeld2 wrote:
the witchfire rules absolutely do say that the subtypes ignore the normal witchfire rules

I am completely confused. Can you explain this more for me, please?

I feel like I am looking at the right paragraph, but I do not see what you're referring to.

liturgies of blood wrote:I disagree, the subtypes over-rule the basic rules mostly. Firing 2 PSAs still applies, just because the targeting and subtype specific rules are different doesn't mean the basic rules don't apply where there is no direct conflict (basic vs advanced).

If Nova don't follow basic witchfire powers (where there is no conflict) what does it count as having fired?

This isn't a basic vs advanced situation. The basic rules say to ignore them when there's a subtype involved. Do you agree?

Brometheus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
the witchfire rules absolutely do say that the subtypes ignore the normal witchfire rules

I am completely confused. Can you explain this more for me, please?

I feel like I am looking at the right paragraph, but I do not see what you're referring to.

You don't see the sentence I quoted earlier in this thread?

First, I see lots of quoted sentences in this thread. Some are unhelpful (yours in particular are indeed helpful)

Second, some people (me) may not have your level of reading comprehension skills and so might occasionally ask for clarification or help from other users. So thanks for essentially telling me to "read the thread". I have been reading.. All 11 pages. I am trying to keep up. : ]

If you're right then we have even further broken witchfire powers, the subtypes don't count as having fired an assault weapon, there is no restriction on firing 2.

I think from how I read it that the context that the paragraph is about targeting. Each of the subtypes either says how it hits by referring to the standard rules or listing their own. I think this is the definition of a basic vs advanced situation.

It doesn't say ignore the basic rules, it says use the rules for that subtype. Does the use of advanced rules exclude the restrictiions and benefits of basic rules without a direct conflict?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

It doesn't say ignore the basic rules, it says use the rules for that subtype.

This is why I am confused. (and why we are having issues with this Power in the first place, I guess)

Ugh, the problem is manifold at this stage.

1. Do witchfire powers without a weapons profile need a roll to hit to allow resolution of the power?
The views are that the "must roll to hit" has no exemption and that the roll to hit is not tied to resolution of anything beyond the weapons profile.

2. If a roll to hit is needed for a PSA without a profile, how many dice are rolled?
The views are that you cannot roll without any profile or any specific wording due to the lack of the assault profile and that the basic rules are that without multiple shots it's one dice as per page 50.

Myself and rigeld are off topic atm but at least we're being civil so it's all cool.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
If you're right then we have even further broken witchfire powers, the subtypes don't count as having fired an assault weapon, there is no restriction on firing 2.

I think from how I read it that the context that the paragraph is about targeting. Each of the subtypes either says how it hits by referring to the standard rules or listing their own. I think this is the definition of a basic vs advanced situation.

It doesn't say ignore the basic rules, it says use the rules for that subtype. Does the use of advanced rules exclude the restrictiions and benefits of basic rules without a direct conflict?

It says use the rules for that subtype to resolve it and not the "basic" rules. Meaning the basic rules to resolve it are ignored.
How do you resolve a power (post passing the psychic test obviously since that isn't listed "above")?

It doesn't say use the subtype rules to resolve it, it says use the rules for that subtype. It says use the above rules to resolve any witchfires without a subtype.

That the subtypes tell you how to resolve them does not ignore all of the basic rules. It overrules some of them and that's it. Beam tells you it hits automatically, overriding the need to roll to hit.

It still counts as having fired an assault weapon and cannot be fired in addition to any other weapons unless you have a specific allowance. It can also be fired out of a vehicle with fire points. These are basic witchfire rules that still apply to this subtype.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It doesn't say use the subtype rules to resolve it, it says use the rules for that subtype. It says use the above rules to resolve any witchfires without a subtype.

It says, and I'll quote it again,

p69 wrote:If the witchfire does not list a subtype, or simply describes itself as a psychic shooting attack, use the rules given above to resolve it. If it has one of the following subtypes, use the rules for that subtype.

Use the rules for that subtype to do what? To resolve it.

Ok and how does that say to ignore all of the basic rules for witchfire powers?

nosferatu1001 wrote:


Further refusal is considered further concession that you are making a RAI argument, while failing to mark it as such, and will be reported for trolling.

Your opinion is noted.

I thank you for noting my opinion, and calling you a cheater was uncalled for, I read your post that you HAVE been ignoring the need to roll to hit. Which would be cheating. In the future please don't threaten to report, just report and let the mods do their jobs.

As for the effect of the ability still going off on a miss. Damn, that is a grey area for sure. I see your RAW argument and think you're spot on.

From there we go to HIWPI and think about the table.....

1. Test and pass to cast Psychic Shriek.
2. Roll to hit.
3. Miss.
4. Tell my opponent to please roll his 3D6.....

5..... The TO asks me to leave and takes my army as a punishment for trying that crap.

We could also go with.

1. Test and pass to cast Psychic Shriek (Not two, just one as it isn't Psychic Shriek(s))
2. Roll to hit with my (1) Psychic Shriek
3. Wait are we sure it's one? No? Uh Oh.

Having people come in here and fight the fight for a RAI vs RAW isn't a bad thing and has in the past lead to new thinking which has resolved RAW arguments.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Ok and how does that say to ignore all of the basic rules for witchfire powers?

How do you resolve a witchfire power?
Now - you must ignore those rules and use the rules for the subtypes.

Stormbreed - at the time I wasnt convinced you were trolling, hence didnt want to report. Hence the "further" comment, and thank you for acknowledging your error in assusmption, and for conceding the rules are certainly not FOR the effect being tied to the to-hit.

Given I dont use psychic powers in the main (Main army is Khorne....) this is all about allowing my opponents the best use of this power. Especially as otherwise it is worse than mindwar....

I also disagree on the RAI - as pointed out, it is *incredibly* muddy. A LOT of people never evenn thought of rolling to hit, others cant see how you wouldnt roll to hit (but never really looked into it, to realise you dont actually know how many dice to roll....) so I definitely dont agree on a RAI argument being anymore valid here than anywhere.

You seem to be missing my point completely. I said you don't ignore all of the witchfire rules when it comes to subtypes.

You ignore the roll to hit and the targeting restrictions (for most of them) because you're told to in the rules. You're still not given permission to overcome the rest of the basic rules.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
You seem to be missing my point completely. I said you don't ignore all of the witchfire rules when it comes to subtypes.

You ignore the roll to hit and the targeting restrictions (for most of them) because you're told to in the rules. You're still not given permission to overcome the rest of the basic rules.

If they're part of resolving the power you are - which was my original point. You initially only called out targeting which was incorrect - it's far more than just that.

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Eh, that's not what witchfire rules say. If it has a subtype you use those rules for targeting. It doesn't say you ignore the basic witchfire rules if it has a subtype and focussed witchfire doesn't say it hits automatically like the other subtypes do. That doesn't mean there is no roll to hit, you don't have permission to ignore it as they say it follows all the rules for witchfire with the following restriction.

The 5 or less is nothing to do with hitting, it's to do with targeting.

I bolded the incorrect part of your post - the witchfire rules absolutely do say that the subtypes ignore the normal witchfire rules - not just for targeting. FW happens to include all the rules, so your conclusion was correct but your statements were not.

I changed target to resolve but you also bolded more than what I was mistaken on. It also doesn't matter if you read it as targeting only or resolution as the roll to hit is covered in each of the subtypes.

The rule does say you ignore the basic witchfire rules when it comes to resolving the power (which is what you were addressing).

It doesn't say that, it says "use the rules for that subtype" not ignore all witchfire rules. There are three sentences in that paragraph. The 1st one you keep omitting from your quote and it changes the reading of the paragraph. I was also addressing a blanket statement that was incorrect.

There are several different sub-types of witchfire, each applying different targeting restrictions. If the witchfire does not list a subtype, or simply describes itself as a psychic shooting attack, use the rules given above to resolve it. If it has one of the following subtypes, use the rules for that subtype.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It doesn't say that, it says "use the rules for that subtype" not ignore all witchfire rules. There are three sentences in that paragraph. The 1st one you keep omitting from your quote and it changes the reading of the paragraph.

There are several different sub-types of witchfire, each applying different targeting restrictions. If the witchfire does not list a subtype, or simply describes itself as a psychic shooting attack, use the rules given above to resolve it. If it has one of the following subtypes, use the rules for that subtype.

Use the rules for that subtype to do what?

Again, I was addressing the blanket statement that was incorrect: that subtypes ignore all the basic rules.

Target. The subtype rules tell you the rest of how to resolve them that differs from witchfire powers and basic vs advanced tells you the rest.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Again, I was addressing the blanket statement that was incorrect: that subtypes ignore all the basic rules.

They do - all basic rules that have to do with resolving the power.

Target. The rules tell you the rest of how to resolve them that differs from witchfire powers and basic vs advanced tells you the rest.

Incorrect. You use the rules for the subtype to resolve the power, not simply to handle targeting.

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Again, I was addressing the blanket statement that was incorrect: that subtypes ignore all the basic rules.

They do - all basic rules that have to do with resolving the power.

Well targeting, which is part of resolving but not the whole of it. The subtype rules tell you the rest of where they diverge. See the 2nd line says resolve as above because there is no difference in targeting for those with no listed subtype as they follow all of the rules, the 3rd as per the 1st talks about targeting as they are where ALL of the subtypes and the basic rules diverge. Each of the subtypes then deals with how they target and if they hit automatically but focussed still uses all of the other rules of the basic witchfire power.

And again you still are the one that called "you don't ignore all of the basic witchfire rules" wrong. You said it was wrong, not wrong with conditions, just wrong and it isn't.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Again, I was addressing the blanket statement that was incorrect: that subtypes ignore all the basic rules.

They do - all basic rules that have to do with resolving the power.

Well targeting, which is part of resolving but not the whole of it. The subtype rules tell you the rest of where they diverge. See the 2nd line says resolve as above because there is no difference in targeting for those with no listed subtype as they follow all of the rules, the 3rd as per the 1st talks about targeting as they are where ALL of the subtypes and the basic rules diverge. Each of the subtypes then deals with how they target but focussed still uses all of the other rules of the basic witchfire power.

And again you still are the one that called "you don't ignore all of the basic witchfire rules" wrong.

No, they absolutely must ignore all basic rules regarding resolving the power. It's simply how English works.
Use the above rules to resolve witchfires and PSAs. For other subtypes, use the rules for that subtype. Use them for what? Resolving.

Yes, it's likely they meant to limit it to targeting, but that's not what they did.

Resolving a power is the final step of the process and you do so by reading the power's entry. pg 68 And in the case of witchfire there is a roll to hit, which I'm just going to assume is part of resolution for the purposes of this and as it feels like the right place to put it.
So does the 2nd line of the 4th paragraph on page 69 refer to this process or just use the verb resolve in it's general meaning? If it's the specific it's just throw in the roll to hit. If not it's very RAI what the answer is.

Targeting happens long before that (pg 67) and must apply the basic rules too since there is no reason to ignore them unless there is a clear conflict of rules. Since there is a lot of clear conflicts between the basic and the subtypes you don't use all of the rules but that's how this game works. The 1st line is looking more like a reminder to me. So I think I was right in the first place you don't get to ignore all of the basic rules nor the rules on targeting.

So yes, I will still continue to say that you cannot ignore all of the basic rules. Which was the mistake I addressed with my OP on this issue.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Stormbreed - at the time I wasnt convinced you were trolling, hence didnt want to report. Hence the "further" comment, and thank you for acknowledging your error in assusmption, and for conceding the rules are certainly not FOR the effect being tied to the to-hit.

Given I dont use psychic powers in the main (Main army is Khorne....) this is all about allowing my opponents the best use of this power. Especially as otherwise it is worse than mindwar....

I also disagree on the RAI - as pointed out, it is *incredibly* muddy. A LOT of people never evenn thought of rolling to hit, others cant see how you wouldnt roll to hit (but never really looked into it, to realise you dont actually know how many dice to roll....) so I definitely dont agree on a RAI argument being anymore valid here than anywhere.

No problem I can see where you were confused. Next time just report me and let the mods decide if I was trolling as that is not your job on these forums.

I have to point out that Ignorance of the Law doesn't make you Immune to the Law. We know the rules state you must roll to hit with this power, that's not RAI or HIWPI, it is specifically RAW. So all the people who were not rolling because they didn't know they had to have no bearing on this. If we know RAW and we must roll to hit, we then must get to the point where we don't know what to do. This is where is becomes a complete RAI argument.

Which, as pointed out, involves breaking the fewest rules. You have to completely make up two rules, versus breaking one.

You have to make up the number of shots
You have to make up a requirement that a failure to hit, on the number of shots you have made up, stops you from using the effect.