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 Unforgiven656 wrote:
The fact that every other weapon (apart from pistols of course) lists the amount of shots in it's profile is neither here nor there. But it does kind of illustrate my point. We have been told that if it is the case that a weapon has multiple shots, it will be noted after it's weapon type. The logical step is that if it is not noted - as in the case of PS - then it does not have multiple shots. If it does not have multiple shots then the inference is that it is single shot.


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 Red Corsair wrote:
This is where your argument falls flat. It doesn't say without a profile the default is one. It simply tells us to look to the profile for the number of shots. PS doesn't have a profile. So we are left stranded.

Could you quote the rulebook on where it tells us to look to the profile for the number of shots?

The exact wording under number of shots is "Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type."

Now quote me the page number to find PS profile.


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Lets back up anyway. I don't want to even debate the rolling to hit part anymore since its not even a requirement for PS effect. Show me where it says PS needs to fulfill more then targeting a unit for it's effect? If your making up a profile why stop at number of shots, lets call it strength- AP- it doesn't matter for the 3D6-LD effect at all.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
The fact that every other weapon (apart from pistols of course) lists the amount of shots in it's profile is neither here nor there. But it does kind of illustrate my point. We have been told that if it is the case that a weapon has multiple shots, it will be noted after it's weapon type. The logical step is that if it is not noted - as in the case of PS - then it does not have multiple shots. If it does not have multiple shots then the inference is that it is single shot.

Again, it never says this. It says on pg 13 most weapons, this doesn't mean all. On page 50 it says some weapons fire multiple shots, look to the profile (paraphrasing). It never says that you default to 1, ever, anywhere in the BRB.

Don't paraphrase. The exact quote again is "Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type." If it is not noted then the logical assumption is that it does not fire multiple shots.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
The fact that every other weapon (apart from pistols of course) lists the amount of shots in it's profile is neither here nor there. But it does kind of illustrate my point. We have been told that if it is the case that a weapon has multiple shots, it will be noted after it's weapon type. The logical step is that if it is not noted - as in the case of PS - then it does not have multiple shots. If it does not have multiple shots then the inference is that it is single shot.


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 Red Corsair wrote:
This is where your argument falls flat. It doesn't say without a profile the default is one. It simply tells us to look to the profile for the number of shots. PS doesn't have a profile. So we are left stranded.

Could you quote the rulebook on where it tells us to look to the profile for the number of shots?

The exact wording under number of shots is "Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type."

Now quote me the page number to find PS profile.


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Lets back up anyway. I don't want to even debate the rolling to hit part anymore since its not even a requirement for PS effect. Show me where it says PS needs to fulfill more then targeting a unit for it's effect? If your making up a profile why stop at number of shots, lets call it strength- AP- it doesn't matter for the 3D6-LD effect at all.

Why would we even talk about that?


Did you read the OP topic? How can we even get to the point where we talk about the requirement for something to HIT, that we can all agree MUST ROLL TO HIT RAW, to not matter if we MISS........?

 Unforgiven656 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
The fact that every other weapon (apart from pistols of course) lists the amount of shots in it's profile is neither here nor there. But it does kind of illustrate my point. We have been told that if it is the case that a weapon has multiple shots, it will be noted after it's weapon type. The logical step is that if it is not noted - as in the case of PS - then it does not have multiple shots. If it does not have multiple shots then the inference is that it is single shot.

Again, it never says this. It says on pg 13 most weapons, this doesn't mean all. On page 50 it says some weapons fire multiple shots, look to the profile (paraphrasing). It never says that you default to 1, ever, anywhere in the BRB.

Don't paraphrase. The exact quote again is "Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type." If it is not noted then the logical assumption is that it does not fire multiple shots.

Which is part of the "Type" listed on the profile. Since there is no profile, there can be no "Type" and as such that rule does not apply.

Page 51 "A model shooting an Assault weapon shoots the number of times indicated on its profile"

Page 69 " Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault weapon"

Also HJ is correct.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
The fact that every other weapon (apart from pistols of course) lists the amount of shots in it's profile is neither here nor there. But it does kind of illustrate my point. We have been told that if it is the case that a weapon has multiple shots, it will be noted after it's weapon type. The logical step is that if it is not noted - as in the case of PS - then it does not have multiple shots. If it does not have multiple shots then the inference is that it is single shot.


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 Red Corsair wrote:
This is where your argument falls flat. It doesn't say without a profile the default is one. It simply tells us to look to the profile for the number of shots. PS doesn't have a profile. So we are left stranded.

Could you quote the rulebook on where it tells us to look to the profile for the number of shots?

The exact wording under number of shots is "Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type."

Now quote me the page number to find PS profile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets back up anyway. I don't want to even debate the rolling to hit part anymore since its not even a requirement for PS effect. Show me where it says PS needs to fulfill more then targeting a unit for it's effect? If your making up a profile why stop at number of shots, lets call it strength- AP- it doesn't matter for the 3D6-LD effect at all.

Okay.
PS is a witchfire.
Witchfires count as firing an assault weapon.
Follow the rules for firing an assaut weapon.
Now you need to roll to hit.
And we're back to square one.
Roll to hit using the rules for an assault weapon.
No profile so no number of shots listed. Fall back to number of shots rule.
"Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type."

I'm not making up a profile. PS tells us that it is an assault weapon with 12" range.


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 Happyjew wrote:

 Unforgiven656 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
The fact that every other weapon (apart from pistols of course) lists the amount of shots in it's profile is neither here nor there. But it does kind of illustrate my point. We have been told that if it is the case that a weapon has multiple shots, it will be noted after it's weapon type. The logical step is that if it is not noted - as in the case of PS - then it does not have multiple shots. If it does not have multiple shots then the inference is that it is single shot.

Again, it never says this. It says on pg 13 most weapons, this doesn't mean all. On page 50 it says some weapons fire multiple shots, look to the profile (paraphrasing). It never says that you default to 1, ever, anywhere in the BRB.

Don't paraphrase. The exact quote again is "Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type." If it is not noted then the logical assumption is that it does not fire multiple shots.

Which is part of the "Type" listed on the profile. Since there is no profile, there can be no "Type" and as such that rule does not apply.

Well yes this it what I'm getting at. There is no requirement in that rule for single shot weapons to have the number 1 (shot) listed after it's type. We already know PS is treated as an assault weapon with a range of 12". We go back to the roll to hit. pg 13 - "Most models only get to fire one shot, however some weapons are capable of firing more than once." Since we can find nothing indicating that our weapon is capable of firing more than once, the only logical outcome is we fire one shot.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Page 51 "A model shooting an Assault weapon shoots the number of times indicated on its profile"

Page 69 " Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault weapon"

Also HJ is correct.

Which doesnt not say that Witchfires=Assault weapons. That sentences parses to Manifesting=firing.

Which means you are bound the the same rules as if you had fired an assault weapon.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Page 51 "A model shooting an Assault weapon shoots the number of times indicated on its profile"

Page 69 " Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault weapon"

Also HJ is correct.

Which doesnt not say that Witchfires=Assault weapons. That sentences parses to Manifesting=firing.

Which means you are bound the the same rules as if you had fired an assault weapon.

yes, profile included which will tell you how many shots you get.

Like Lifeleach page 419, or Inferno P.421, or Vortex of doom P. 422...

P.S. why do they list Assault 1, if one shot is the default? (Hint: it is because 1 shot is not the default and the profile contains the information for how many shots any given weapon will fire).

liturgies of blood wrote:There is no such thing as a shooting weapon, firstly.

Odd, there are no weapons that shoot? Interesting attempt at dissembling there.

liturgies of blood wrote:Seconldy, the to wound mechanic is replaced in this power, it tells you how to generate wounds, if you cannot see that then there is no point talking anymore.

Ah, so you havea rule backing that assertion up? How do you know, using rules, that what you just stated is correct? I treat it as an alternative effect, like MH and other powers. Just because it can generate wounds (just like MH additonal effects) does not alter that it is not an assault weapon profile, therefore you have to have a link between the two

I like that you finally admit that you are, without rules, replacing one clearly defined process - to-wound - with another, without a rule stating that this is a replacement. Youre just, frankly, making gak up

liturgies of blood wrote:I don't have to deal with page 14 as there is nothing there that impacts on the resolution of A) this shooting attack as it's not got a S profile similar to how you resolve other shooting attacks that have an effect such as rad grenades, B) there is a clear method of wound generation that diverges from the normal process.

So you are saying you DONT need to have a rule linking a succesful to-hit with rolling the 3D6 effect? Because Page 14 is where you are told you need a successful to-hit in order to roll to-wound.

liturgies of blood wrote:So instead of rolling To Wound, I'm rolling 3D6-Ld to generate wounds. I see this as a false standard I need to meet.

How is it a "false standard" to ask you to back up your opinion with some written rules? Have you noted that, so far in this response, you have failed to cite a single rule? Just a load of assertions. Snarky ones at that.

liturgies of blood wrote:Why does this power not have the same restrictions placed on it as other PSAs that circumvent the normal shooting process?

What other restrictions? Like JotWW, whcih doesnt have to roll to hit?

liturgies of blood wrote:I did find a link between roll To Hit and resolution on pg 69 a more specific section than pg68 that deals with witchfire powers. You don't accept it because "it doesn't say that" in your opinion.
I cannot find a line that links 3d6 and resolution as the brb wasn't written to service this one power. Just one that links resolution and to hit and names PSAs shooting attacks.

No, I am asking you to provide a RULE that links a successful roll to-hit with the abiltiy to continue power resolution when you are not comparing S vs T. It isnt MY opinion that the rules dont actually say what you continually assert - they DO NOT say what you continually assert

liturgies of blood wrote:Would you agree to disagree or do you want to keep going around?

I will agree you have failed to provide any rules to back up your assertions, and are basing this on a "replacement" effect you have made up, and that has no place in the actual written rules of the game.

liturgies of blood wrote:And on a side note, I find the constant "do as I say or conceed" line rather ivory tower. You keep insulting people in your posts with how it reads and when they are goaded and snap back you threaten mods. Please cut it out, I've responded in kind to you as I find your tone insulting in this thread.

Actually I pointed out what would make me concede - actual rules stating that, for PSAs, in order to resolve any part of the power you have to successfully roll to hit. Find it, actual rules stating that, and I will concede the argument

If you cannot find this, then I will accept your concession. Fair?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Page 51 "A model shooting an Assault weapon shoots the number of times indicated on its profile"

Page 69 " Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault weapon"

Also HJ is correct.

Which doesnt not say that Witchfires=Assault weapons. That sentences parses to Manifesting=firing.

Which means you are bound the the same rules as if you had fired an assault weapon.

yes, profile included which will tell you how many shots you get.

Like Lifeleach page 419, or Inferno P.421, or Vortex of doom P. 422...

P.S. why do they list Assault 1, if one shot is the default? (Hint: it is because 1 shot is not the default and the profile contains the information for how many shots any given weapon will fire).

1 shot is quite clearly the default. We have two statements from the rulebook backing this up.

Rolling to hit pg 13 - "Most models only get to fire one shot, however some weapons are capable of firing more than once.."

Number of shots pg 50 - Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots, where this is the case the number of shots is noted after it's type."

The first rule is most important as it tells the only exception to firing one shot is if our weapon profile confers multiple shots. Since we do not have a weapon profile for PS it cannot possibly give us multiple shots. That leaves us with only one option - that the model gets to fire just one shot.

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
1 shot is quite clearly the default. We have two statements from the rulebook backing this up.

Rolling to hit pg 13 - "Most models only get to fire one shot, however some weapons are capable of firing more than once.."

Number of shots pg 50 - Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots, where this is the case the number of shots is noted after it's type."

The first rule is most important as it tells the only exception to firing one shot is if our weapon profile confers multiple shots. Since we do not have a weapon profile for PS it cannot possibly give us multiple shots. That leaves us with only one option - that the model gets to fire just one shot.

That rule doesn't actually say what you hope it says.

Rolling to hit pg 13 - "Most models only get to fire one shot, however some weapons are capable of firing more than once.."

Most models. Not all models. And we're talking weapons not models. And it doesn't say "by default, all models fire one shot".
"Some weapons are capable of firing more that once" - which weapons? How can you tell? The only way is looking at there profile.
Psychic Shriek doesn't say, so is it 1 shot or 3? This rule doesn't set a default, just talks about a common number.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
1 shot is quite clearly the default. We have two statements from the rulebook backing this up.

Rolling to hit pg 13 - "Most models only get to fire one shot, however some weapons are capable of firing more than once.."

Number of shots pg 50 - Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots, where this is the case the number of shots is noted after it's type."

The first rule is most important as it tells the only exception to firing one shot is if our weapon profile confers multiple shots. Since we do not have a weapon profile for PS it cannot possibly give us multiple shots. That leaves us with only one option - that the model gets to fire just one shot.

That rule doesn't actually say what you hope it says.

Rolling to hit pg 13 - "Most models only get to fire one shot, however some weapons are capable of firing more than once.."

Most models. Not all models. And we're talking weapons not models. And it doesn't say "by default, all models fire one shot".
"Some weapons are capable of firing more that once" - which weapons? How can you tell? The only way is looking at there profile.
Psychic Shriek doesn't say, so is it 1 shot or 3? This rule doesn't set a default, just talks about a common number.

Most models only get to fire one shot. The ONLY exception to this is where weapons are capable of firing more than one shot. pg 50 - where it is the case that weapons fire more than one shot it will be noted after it's type. From this wording we can logically assume that if a number is not noted after it's type it fires a single shot.

If the only way to determine the number of shots is to check the profile of a weapon, how do we know how many shots a pistol has?

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
Most models only get to fire one shot. The ONLY exception to this is...

Whoa stop right there.
The rule definitely says nothing like this. You're stating your interpretation as rules.

"Most models only get to fire one shot, however some weapons are capable of firing more than once.."
Exact wording. This gives us two options. We either fire one shot, as most models do, or we have a weapon that specifically confers multiple shots. We do not have a weapon profile for PS. Therefore we cannot say that we have multiple shots. What does that leave us with?

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
"Most models only get to fire one shot, however some weapons are capable of firing more than once.."
Exact wording. This gives us two options. We either fire one shot, as most models do, or we have a weapon that specifically confers multiple shots. We do not have a weapon profile for PS. Therefore we cannot say that we have multiple shots. What does that leave us with?

... No answer. We can't say it's a single shot either.
No profile, so we don't know if it's a single shot or multiple shot.
"Most models" is very different from "by default"

I disagree. Most models relates to everything that doesn't have multiple shots listed on it's weapon profile. Therefore 'most models' is the default. Weapons with multiple shots are the exception. This is further backed up by pg50 - "some shooting weapons fire multiple shots, where this the case, the number of shots will be listed after it's type." This implies that weapons that don't list the number of shots after it's type are single shot

 Unforgiven656 wrote:
Therefore 'most models' is the default.

I totally disagree. Most means most, not all, and not default.
Statistically most players play Space Marines, doesn't mean it's default.
"Most" and "default" are completely different.
You can guess that it should be 1 shot, based on most, but that's still just a guess.

I vehemently disagree. lol. Your example of most people playing Space Marines is not a good analogy as there are multiple alternatives to Space Marines. With the to hit roll there is only one. We either fire one shot as most models do, or we fire lots if noted on a weapon profile. We do not have a weapon profile so we can not fire multiple shots. And we do not need to guess as it is stated 'most models fire one shot'.

To be clear, the reason this rule is important is because it is in the shooting phase section under 'roll to hit'. So even though it says ..'models fire one shot' it is clearly talking about shooting attacks.

regardless of how many shots you get you are required to roll to hit.

the one RAW statement in all of the arguements in all of the threads on this is the same

YOU ARE REQUIRED TO ROLL TO HIT

saying it breaks the least amount of rules to ignore the to hit roll is false, as the only thing RAW you have is the to hit roll which is required.

then you get to "ok how many dice"

you are not plainly told 1

you are given no permission to roll more than 1.

so which breaks the least amount of rules?

completely ignoring the 1 RAW thing (rolling to hit)?

Rolling just 1 dice (you are not given permission to roll multiple)

rolling more than 1 dice?

The one that breaks the least RAW and RAI is obvious.

rolling to hit and using just 1 dice to roll it.

All MCs can fire at least two shots, even if their weapon only fires one. Bang goes your "default" argument

Most != default. Most simply means most common, it does not even imply the existence of a defautl

THe sentence also covers two distinct ideas, which you muddle - the first part talks about *models*, and the second talks about *weapons*

Most MODELS can.... allows for the existence of models which can fire mroe than once with each weapon - XV107, as a simple example.

Some WEAPONS can....

We are talking about a weapon here - and page 51 tells us how many shots our weapon can fire. It states it is found on the profile

You cannot use the lack of a profile to claim it only fires one shot, as you are ignoring the more specific rule because yuo are finding it inconvenient. That isnt how this rules system works.


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Blaktoof - stop ignoring the counters to your argument

You are making you two rules vs breaking one
1) Yuo have to make up the number of shots. Rule broken / made up (made up profile)
2) You have to compel a link between successfully rolling to hit and being able to resolve the non-assault weapon effects. The only RULE in the whole entire rulebook that creates a link, is between shooting to-hit and to-wound - yet we are not following to-wound, we are doing something entirely different

You can skip "to hit" as functionally it does nothing. Whether you hit or miss, you still resolve the rest of the power, as nothing on page 68 or 69 tells you to STOP resolving the power if you miss

That is the section the Liturgies was making up and the part you are conveniently ignoring in your oft repeated posts.

I 100% disagree with your statement 2, as you cannot say a required to hit roll needs to be linked to being successful for an effect.

that it is required to do for the effect to go off is evident because it is required RAW

that is a fallacy on your part, that you keep ignoring.

blaktoof wrote:
I 100% disagree with your statement 2, as you cannot say a required to hit roll needs to be linked to being successful for an effect.

that it is required to do for the effect to go off is evident because it is required RAW

that is a fallacy on your part, that you keep ignoring.

I don't think he's ignoring that, he's said since page 1 that RAW currently doesn't work. Which is why this is a RAI/HIWPI debate.

blaktoof wrote:
I 100% disagree with your statement 2, as you cannot say a required to hit roll needs to be linked to being successful for an effect.

that it is required to do for the effect to go off is evident because it is required RAW

that is a fallacy on your part, that you keep ignoring.

Incorrect, I have NOT ignored that part.

Please, provide a link between succesfully hitting and rolling the 3D6. You claim it is RAW, yet cite no rules.

You havent disproven 2, just sttated an opinion. I have stated a fact - that successful to-hit is indeed linked to being able to roll to-wound. Prove it for this case.

Liturgies was unable to, can you?

Nos- You have stated nothing RAW or RAI intended at all to support your claim, your entire assertation is simply HYWPI

I do not need to provide a link between hitting and the effect occuring.

IT is required to roll to hit.

If it wasnt required to roll to hit it wouldnt need to roll to hit.

The requirement to hit is part of the effect going off. That is RAW.

There is no permission to ignore the required roll, as you claim there is the burden of proof is on anyone to prove that RAW or RAI there is no requirement to roll to hit for the power. Simply being if RAW it says "required to roll to hit as if shooting.." Then it must roll to hit to effect. The requirement is that it is required to roll to hit.

There is no compelled link, that is simply your completely unsupported opinion that there needs to be anything more than "required to roll to hit"

Given that it is RAW that it has to roll to hit, the hit roll is required.

So when playing you should follow the given RAW and roll to hit then figure out how it is intended to be played from there.

pg 69. Manifesting a witchfire counts as firing an assault weapon. Assault weapons must have succesful 'to hit rolls' to be able to move on to rolling to wound. We are still rolling to wound with PS, it just gives us a different formula for determining the amount of wounds than the normal 'succesful hits = number of wounds - "Roll 3D6 and subtract the targets leadership - the target unit suffer a number of wounds equal to the result" That is the link. There is no specific rule in PS that says you can ignore the roll to hit or that it has no effect on resolution of the power.

To try and be clearer (if I possibly can), it is specifically the roll to hit that manifests the witchfire, NOT the psychic test. To then say the outcome of this roll does not matter makes no sense to me.

But you still don't know how many dice to roll to hit.

To play the devil's advocate...

Manifesting a witchfire counts as firing an assault weapon but the 3D6 is not rolling to wound as in the traditional sense, but is an effect. RAW on p. 67 is that to manifest a psychic power you must target a unit (this does not require hitting the target).

It is then RAI whether or not rolling to hit refers to a weapons profile for shots fired from witchfire powers or additional limitations on the effects of the actual power in accordance to targeting for the psychic power's effects to occur.

One. I stand by my earlier argument.

So there.


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 chillis wrote:
To play the devil's advocate...

Manifesting a witchfire counts as firing an assault weapon but the 3D6 is not rolling to wound as in the traditional sense, but is an effect. RAW on p. 67 is that to manifest a psychic power you must target a unit (this does not require hitting the target).

It is then RAI whether or not rolling to hit refers to a weapons profile for shots fired from witchfire powers or additional limitations on the effects of the actual power in accordance to targeting for the psychic power's effects to occur.

The witchfire rule on pg69 overides this rule -"A witchfire power must roll to hit." Is there anything in PS's rule telling us to ignore that?

I'm sorry, got lost on your second point. Could you lay it out a little clearer?

Please read the RAI part kind sir, I'm not saying I'm supporting "the doesn't have to hit" position- I'm providing perspective. This perspective can logically be deduced to an understanding and stronger support for one of the sides.


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oh yes of course! no worries. one second


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We are given the basics from page 67 on how to manifest psychic powers- in this we are not required a roll to hit

page 69 We are required a roll to hit for witchfire powers but this does not necessarily have to do with the effects. We have weapon profiles on most witchfire powers that generate wounds like normal and then have additional effects.
This is simply RAI, does rolling to hit have to do with the manifesting of the effect of the power or it's shooting ability?

The counter-argument for this is the RAI of what purpose does the blasts, large blasts, and templates information serve?


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Is that any more clear? I have difficulty putting my thoughts down sometimes...

Perfectly clear Chillis. Little drowsy due to a cold, so that's probably not helping.

And apologies. Being fairly new to these forums the whole RAI vs RAW thing keeps going straight over my head.

Your second point regarding blasts etc. is certainly food for thought. Certainly worth a mulling over.

With regards to the first point, I'm not sure we can separate the shooting ability from the effect can we?