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jy2 wrote:It's sad how, without Iron Arm, a DP can be so easily killed by another MC, even a tervigon or riptide, with just 1 smash attack. For the points, those DP's should be T6!

Good comeback so far. Looking forwards to the rest.

jy2 wrote:[
To me, the loss of EW and the more than doubling of their price is enough of a "critical balance aspect".

I just hate it when these 350-pt guys get one-shotted by a wraithknight or stomped on by a riptide. You know, that under-costed MC....

jy2 wrote:
Then again, you can also leave him with a 70-pt MSU combat squad to assault, let him overkill and then shoot him down. Without the Grimoire and/or Iron Arm, the DP is really just a big and nasty glass-hammer. Yeah, he's got good offense and he can control the board. But he also needs to rely on a decent amount of LOS-blocking terrain or even a unit of fire warriors can shoot him down reliably (if he's on the ground). As for other MC's, all they need to do is to anchor themselves in area terrain and they have the advantage against a non-Grimoired, non-Iron armed DP.

Give me T6 (or lower the cost slightly) and I may consider running them. Otherwise, I prefer to go with soulgrinders in my daemon army currently. In any case, let's get back on topic. With regards to the DP, I think we can just agree to disagree.

I'm going to have to agree and disagree with some of your points.

I will agree the base DP is overcosted for a T5 MC. IMO by ~40pts.

But, the cost of Demonic Flight is ridiculously cheap and extremely poorly balanced and should have been in the neighborhood of a ~60pts upgrade.

On the topic of psychic powers, GW really dropped the ball here. "Daemons of..." should have be delegated to their parent Psychic Disiplines, ie those of there relevant greater daemons Tzeenchs Change and Diviniation, Nurgle Plague and Biomancy, Slaanesh Excess and Telepaphy. The ability for any FMC to reach T7/8/9 is dangerous as FMCs in general have enough boons to make them extremely powerful on the field. The Sheer Spammabiity of FMCs is down right scary and has marginalized much of the Daemons Codex outside of the other two biggies, Khornedog rush and Screamerstar.

GW costed DPs knowing that Iron Arm is just too tempting. Anyone with half a brain looked at the DP, and knew Wings, and ML3 Biomancy was gold. Despite the glaring weakness of 50% chance of still being T5, they still control games.

They are only ~350pts because people are giving them everything and the Kitchen Sink. Base +Tzeentch +Flight +Armor +ML3 +2xGreater or Greater/Exalted Rewards. Literally, every upgrade you can manage. 350pts for a T5 FMC without Ironarm or that fails to cast it or doesn't' have a chance to.... too expensive. 350pts for a T7/8 FMC Eternal Warrior and possibly other nasty and powerful upgrades is a steal.

A base Tzeentch DP with Wings, Armor, an a Lesser Reward for the Staff is a solid unit at 240pts. A FMC, brings almost the same offense, 6 S8 AP2 Attacks on the charge at WS9 I8. I would argue appropriately costsed, maybe overcosted by ~20pts and brings a ton to the table. Also opens up DS as viable when you aren't worried about casting blessings and can use it to weather not getting 1st turn. The biggest cost problem with DPs is that their cost scales exponentially, but not their situational survivability. You have a 50% chance of not getting Iron Arm which doesn't neggate the S10 issue and unless you be hid out of LOS you are always vulnerable if you don't get T1. Potential power scales faster then cost, yet situational durability doesn't scale with cost. That, IMO, is the cost problem with DPs.

I actually fear FDP's more then riptides or WK's, I haven't had much trouble killing WK's or riptides and have actually found their damage out put underwhelming if you build your force right. go ahead shoot an ion accelerator at my combat squaded marines in cover or behind an aegis, between bs 3 and non cover ignoring shots stock I'll take that trade all day. Oh whats that? Buff commander, now your inflating that riptide even more to kill combat squads. Most people have shiny toy syndrome currently and are providing expensive targets for other peoples expensive targets. IMO it's the number one reason why nids are still a threat currently, with free poisoned units providing screens it's easy to shut down 240+ point MC's.

@jy2 Agree to disagree it is

 Zagman wrote:

I'm going to have to agree and disagree with some of your points.

I will agree the base DP is overcosted for a T5 MC. IMO by ~40pts.

But, the cost of Demonic Flight is ridiculously cheap and extremely poorly balanced and should have been in the neighborhood of a ~60pts upgrade.

On the topic of psychic powers, GW really dropped the ball here. "Daemons of..." should have be delegated to their parent Psychic Disiplines, ie those of there relevant greater daemons Tzeenchs Change and Diviniation, Nurgle Plague and Biomancy, Slaanesh Excess and Telepaphy. The ability for any FMC to reach T7/8/9 is dangerous as FMCs in general have enough boons to make them extremely powerful on the field. The Sheer Spammabiity of FMCs is down right scary and has marginalized much of the Daemons Codex outside of the other two biggies, Khornedog rush and Screamerstar.

GW costed DPs knowing that Iron Arm is just too tempting. Anyone with half a brain looked at the DP, and knew Wings, and ML3 Biomancy was gold. Despite the glaring weakness of 50% chance of still being T5, they still control games.

They are only ~350pts because people are giving them everything and the Kitchen Sink. Base +Tzeentch +Flight +Armor +ML3 +2xGreater or Greater/Exalted Rewards. Literally, every upgrade you can manage. 350pts for a T5 FMC without Ironarm or that fails to cast it or doesn't' have a chance to.... too expensive. 350pts for a T7/8 FMC Eternal Warrior and possibly other nasty and powerful upgrades is a steal.

A base Tzeentch DP with Wings, Armor, an a Lesser Reward for the Staff is a solid unit at 240pts. A FMC, brings almost the same offense, 6 S8 AP2 Attacks on the charge at WS9 I8. I would argue appropriately costsed, maybe overcosted by ~20pts and brings a ton to the table. Also opens up DS as viable when you aren't worried about casting blessings and can use it to weather not getting 1st turn. The biggest cost problem with DPs is that their cost scales exponentially, but not their situational survivability. You have a 50% chance of not getting Iron Arm which doesn't neggate the S10 issue and unless you be hid out of LOS you are always vulnerable if you don't get T1. Potential power scales faster then cost, yet situational durability doesn't scale with cost. That, IMO, is the cost problem with DPs.

No worries. It is all opinion anyways. Like debating whether a Porshe is worth it's price tag or not.

In any case, I'm not going to take this thread any more OT with talks of whether a DP is worth it or not.

Hello all! Sorry this is a bit late, but here we go with game 4... tough, tough match!

http://knighthammer40k.blogspot.com/2013/10/beakycon-game-4-2250-vs-tyranids.html

BeakyCon Game 4 2250 vs Tyranids
*Disclaimer on Batreps! I played 5 games this weekend. It's entirely possible I forgot some details, but I'll do what I can to make it as accurate as possible. I may confuse if I blew up a chimera on turn 2 or 3, etc. If you were my opponent in any of these reports, please speak up and correct any errors I made. Also, opponents will be identified by first name only. If anyone would like even that removed, just let me know and it'll disappear.*

Opponent: Dave

List:



My Powers:


The Mission:


The Board: (objectives in Red)



Deployment Dave:

Deployment John (Hint, this is me):

Turn 1 Dave:

Turn 1 John:

Turn 2 Dave:

Turn 2 John:

Turn 3 Dave:

Turn 3 John:

Turn 4 Dave:

Turn 4 John:

Turn 5 Dave:

Turn 5 John:

Tyranid victory?



Conclusion:

I call these types of games the "bonkers games". It's the type of game where the dice fluctuates from 1 extreme to the other. These are the types of games that can drive you crazy and yet, are probably the most exciting types of games as well. One minute, you think you are out of it and the next, you have the upper hand. It's crazy, but the luck

But what matter most is you had fun. Winning is just a consolatory prize.

My oh my, is this overdue... Yikes. A month after Beaky ended, here's game 5...

http://knighthammer40k.blogspot.com/2013/11/beakycon3-game-5-2250-vs-necrons.html

BeakyCon3 Game 5 2250 vs Necrons
*Disclaimer on Batreps! I played 5 games this weekend. It's entirely possible I forgot some details, but I'll do what I can to make it as accurate as possible. I may confuse if I blew up a chimera on turn 2 or 3, etc. If you were my opponent in any of these reports, please speak up and correct any errors I made. Also, opponents will be identified by first name only. If anyone would like even that removed, just let me know and it'll disappear.*

Ok, it has been a while, but here's BeakyCon3 game 5... at this point, I am 3-1 after an unlucky game 1, and fighting to win the Silver bracket. My opponent is likewise 3-1, and a very successful Necron player. At Crucible, he played in the final of the tournament, but lost to the champion's D/Eldar. At BeakyCon last year, he took third place after beating me in the final round (Here's a link to that one...) I suppose you could say I have a little vengeance stewing up! I accept that as a competitive player, I'll lose some games, but I do love getting another shot at an opponent who's beaten me before.

Opponent: Remy

List:


My Powers:


The Mission:

Deployment: Vanguard Strike

Primary 1: 4 objective markers, one in center of each table quarter, worth 2 points each (Big Guns never tire)
Primary 2: The Relic (worth 4 points)

Bonus: Line breaker, Warlord

I win the roll off and naturally take second turn.

Deployment Necrons:
Deployment Tyranids:

See below:

Turn 1 Necrons:

Turn 1 Nids:

Turn 2 Necrons:

Turn 2 Nids:

Turn 3 Crons:
Turn 3 Nids:

Turn 4 Crons:

Turn 4 Nids:

Turn 5 Necrons:

Turn 5 Nids:

Final:




Recap:

GT recap:

Comments, questions, criticism... let's hear it!