Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats

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**Azreal13**

boyd wrote:

I think we can all agree the Internet is used for porn and complaining (sometimes combined). Every time someone leaks something an image, it's pages of complaints unless there are dedicated fanboys to actually hype something up. GW releases something, you get pages of people calling it crap and if someone likes it, they are a fanboy (except if you're commenting on PP then you're not because everyone knows they are wine and cheese to GWs beer and pretzels). You see it time after time - the entire Mantic line of models for example (exception being their goblins, GWs don't have the same noses). After a while, there is no reason to cater to the denizens online. Their opinions don't matter as much because no matter what happens their commentary is negative. Why cater to someone who won't buy from you to begin with. The constant negativity is why GW stopped hanging out on portent.net back in the day. People have been predicting they would go out of business and they are all unoriginal hacks since 1995-7. Now 15-20 years later, they are still here and still the 800 pound gorillas in the industry.

Yes there is some truth to GW not wanting to show the world their WIP but a couple of weeks wouldn't hurt their sales. To early and you risk cannibalizing existing kits as people wait to get the new models. Heck when I saw the greens for the third edition Eldar, I waited 18 months before I bought a single aspect warrior because the scorpions looked so much better and I wanted scorpions and banshees but didn't like the second edition models. If they telegraph their moves, they risk someone else beating them to the market.

Blatantly untrue, the general pattern with GW leaks is that the sky is indeed falling when the initial, blurry pics leak, but more often than not (Centurions being a recent example of not, I guess) once better pics become available, opinion normalises and while some continue to dislike there are far more "oh, not as bad as I thought" type posts.

I have no clue what your point about Mantic and PP are, either I'm missing your point or you've not expressed it that clearly.

Using my own inner 10 year old as a guide, GW are in a period where they don't appear to be producing quality concepts (I can't fault their kits from a technical viewpoint, I just haven't been a fan of much they've made recently) but I will ask if you would have waited 18 months for those Scorpions if they'd been bonk? I'm going to assume no, but the fact is, you did wait, and you did give GW your money ultimately. If they'd shown the Centurions kit that far out, they'd have been eaten alive by any number of superior third party alternatives.

While I'm sure it isn't entirely the reason, I wonder perhaps if an element of their current policy is the equivalent of getting a film into cinemas or a videogame into shops without opening it up to the critic community first, its a bad sign of the producers confidence in those products, and there may be, at least a partial, analogue with the BUY NOW! NEW! SHINY! release strategy.

**insaniak**

boyd wrote:
I think we can all agree the Internet is used for porn and complaining (sometimes combined). Every time someone leaks something an image, it's pages of complaints unless there are dedicated fanboys to actually hype something up.

There is a very common misconception that people on the internet just complain, yes. But aside from not actually being entirely true (the new Marine release saw a lot of positive comments on everything except the Centurions, and I've seen any number of previous releases that had positive comments on part or all of them), it's also not confined to the internet (I've come across just as much dislike of the Centurions or the Storm Talon in the 'real world' as I saw online) and nothign at all to do with being a preview.

A crap model is going to get complaints whether it is shown a day before release, a month before, or a decade before. If anything, showing the model early is better... I know by the time the Storm Raven was released, a lot of players had got over their disappointment with how it looked and bought it anyway... where they wouldn't necessarily have been buying on at release if they only just saw it that day, due to that immediate reaction to it.

To early and you risk cannibalizing existing kits as people wait to get the new models.

Planning your production schedule against projected sales and clearing out reduntant models gets that done just as well as not telling people what you are planning on releasing...

Heck when I saw the greens for the third edition Eldar, I waited 18 months before I bought a single aspect warrior because the scorpions looked so much better...

Are you sure you're thinking of the 3rd edition Scorpions...? The buck-tooth yoga dudes? With a model waving his sword in the air while simultaneously holding his own ankle?

If they telegraph their moves, they risk someone else beating them to the market.

Except they don't. Or the guy 'beating them to the market' is a tiny garage operation that really isn't going to have that big an impact on GW's sales. Again, Privateer and Battlefront aren't going to be releasing 28mm not-Aspect Warriors just because GW are working on them. And very few of the smaller companies are capable of producing anything of the same quality as GW are capable of when they try.

**Brother Weasel**

insaniak wrote:
Brother Weasel wrote:
They do solve that, by only adding new units they have models for. (i know it's new for GW, but that's what they are doing NOW)

Yes, it's new, and it took losing a lawsuit for them to realise that not releasing stuff that customers want will cause other people to release that stuff instead.

If GW had instead just told their customers that they were working on a Tervigon kit, and showed them WIP shots that would have shown how much better it was going to be than the CH conversion kit, how many fewer kits would CH have sold?

... and that there are people who can 3d print and process faster then they can make their shipments. (see the centurion, people didn't like it, someone came out with a 3d mockup, before it was even out yet)

Sure, a little garage operation can throw together a 3d render and upload it to Shapeways faster than GW can get models produced and out to stores. But realistically, how many is that little garage operation going to sell?

The alternate Centurion sculpt is not serious competition for GW. It's a drop in the pond. And it's a drop that GW could dry up by just not releasing crap models.

whats to stop a larger non garage company from doing the same thing?

If you think that they released it saying "this is crap" then you are just a fool... I'm not saying it is serious competition, but it could be... depends on how serious someone got into wanting to take gw sales with gw's own game... all hypothetical, but say bandi desides they want to take GW buisiness, GW releases info on minis 6 months in advance, and bandi puts out models that they think people will like better, a week before GW...

Does that happen, no, will it, probably not... we aren't really privy to why gw holds their minis tight to them.. personally i don't see why it matters, stuff comes out when it comes out.... I know people live on a budget, but if it comes out in jan and you can't afford it in till may, so what....

ender502 wrote:

Lunacy? Yes. But people still drink the koolaid and give it to their kids as well. The only way GW will change policy is if they see an actual drop in sales.

not evertone gives a crap one way or another what gw does... some people just like to play the game and or paint the minis.

**insaniak**

Brother Weasel wrote:
whats to stop a larger non garage company from doing the same thing?

A lack of any serious point in doing so.

Sure, Bandi could probably put out not-Eldar faster than GW could. But I would seriously doubt that there would be any real benefit in them doing so. GW are a big fish in a small pond. I doubt they even register on Bandi's radar at all. The effort involved in rushing out a series of models to sell to a niche part of a niche market wouldn't even be worth considering.

we aren't really privy to why gw holds their minis tight to them..

Yes, we are... because Kirby has told us in his financial reports. They believe that the 'surprise' factor gets them more sales than letting people see the model in advance does. Based largely around Space Hulk doing well... because Space Hulk was totally a surprise to everyone by the time it was released, and people just went 'Hey, a gazillion dollar limited edition game I wasn't expecting! I must have it!'... Nothing to do with it being leaked early and, you know, being Space Hulk'.

personally i don't see why it matters, stuff comes out when it comes out.... I know people live on a budget, but if it comes out in jan and you can't afford it in till may, so what....

It matters because people get cranky when they buy a new codex and three weeks later a new one is released.
It matters because people spend a crapload of money on puting together an army, and then the following week discover that they have to redo a whack of it because it's suddenly been invalidated by a new release.
It matters because GW keep telling us it's all about increasing sales on release, and people are saying that they would be more likely to buy on release if they knew a kit was coming so they could save for it, and so the current policy just seems nuts.

**boyd**

azreal13 wrote:

boyd wrote:

I think we can all agree the Internet is used for porn and complaining (sometimes combined). Every time someone leaks something an image, it's pages of complaints unless there are dedicated fanboys to actually hype something up. GW releases something, you get pages of people calling it crap and if someone likes it, they are a fanboy (except if you're commenting on PP then you're not because everyone knows they are wine and cheese to GWs beer and pretzels). You see it time after time - the entire Mantic line of models for example (exception being their goblins, GWs don't have the same noses). After a while, there is no reason to cater to the denizens online. Their opinions don't matter as much because no matter what happens their commentary is negative. Why cater to someone who won't buy from you to begin with. The constant negativity is why GW stopped hanging out on portent.net back in the day. People have been predicting they would go out of business and they are all unoriginal hacks since 1995-7. Now 15-20 years later, they are still here and still the 800 pound gorillas in the industry.

Yes there is some truth to GW not wanting to show the world their WIP but a couple of weeks wouldn't hurt their sales. To early and you risk cannibalizing existing kits as people wait to get the new models. Heck when I saw the greens for the third edition Eldar, I waited 18 months before I bought a single aspect warrior because the scorpions looked so much better and I wanted scorpions and banshees but didn't like the second edition models. If they telegraph their moves, they risk someone else beating them to the market.

Blatantly untrue, the general pattern with GW leaks is that the sky is indeed falling when the initial, blurry pics leak, but more often than not (Centurions being a recent example of not, I guess) once better pics become available, opinion normalises and while some continue to dislike there are far more "oh, not as bad as I thought" type posts.

I have no clue what your point about Mantic and PP are, either I'm missing your point or you've not expressed it that clearly.

Using my own inner 10 year old as a guide, GW are in a period where they don't appear to be producing quality concepts (I can't fault their kits from a technical viewpoint, I just haven't been a fan of much they've made recently) but I will ask if you would have waited 18 months for those Scorpions if they'd been bonk? I'm going to assume no, but the fact is, you did wait, and you did give GW your money ultimately. If they'd shown the Centurions kit that far out, they'd have been eaten alive by any number of superior third party alternatives.

While I'm sure it isn't entirely the reason, I wonder perhaps if an element of their current policy is the equivalent of getting a film into cinemas or a videogame into shops without opening it up to the critic community first, its a bad sign of the producers confidence in those products, and there may be, at least a partial, analogue with the BUY NOW! NEW! SHINY! release strategy.

The number or re-released models that look like crap compared to their 2nd edition counter part is few and far between. Usually when I see new models online, I expect to get them soon. Thing is I would probably have bought both but because I saw them I said I will wait as they should be out soon. after a while when you start to see more and more stuff show up online you keep thinking, I can hold out. It's the reason I have a Saim hann army. Lots of jet bikes, lots of guardians, lots of vipers, and tanks. Very little aspect warriors so I wasn't missing much.

Sure you could get the critics to opine but that wouldn't change much - we still have movies that get great reviews but are absolutely horrible at the box office Prometheus, Godzilla, Planet of the Apes (the remake), the Hulk, Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull (sorry all I can think of when I think of this is the South Park bit) and there are others. Some might have done well at the box office, I just recall hearing they didn't or I just thought the movie was bad. I would put Spider-Man 3 in that category but I don't think I've seen it or plan on seeing it.

**Peregrine**

Brother Weasel wrote:
whats to stop a larger non garage company from doing the same thing?

Two things:

1) A larger company generally has a business plan that doesn't involve making "not GW" kits. PP isn't going to put the next Warmachine release on hold so they can make a not-centurion kit, especially since problem #2 almost guarantees that GW will get most of the potential sales for that kit.

2) The production methods used by garage kit companies don't scale up to mass production. Some random guy can throw together a sculpt and make a hundred resin casts of it pretty easily, but a larger company trying to make large-company-scale production runs needs to spend a lot more time on the design to justify making it, spend even more time on mold and production engineering, get it into their sales network, etc. You just can't do that kind of stuff fast enough to beat GW to market when they've already got the kits manufactured and sitting in the warehouse by the time the first pictures leak.

but say bandi desides they want to take GW buisiness, GW releases info on minis 6 months in advance, and bandi puts out models that they think people will like better, a week before GW...

If GW is releasing enough information to make an entire competing product six months before release day then that's just stupid. We're talking about leaks that are much closer to release day here.

Also, if someone wanted to compete with GW they'd probably do it by making an entire competing game and product line, not just a random model kit or two.

personally i don't see why it matters, stuff comes out when it comes out....

It matters because news of upcoming releases builds excitement and helps sales in the long run. GW are bullying people who should be their natural allies in hyping upcoming releases, and for no better reason than their own incompetence at marketing.

not evertone gives a crap one way or another what gw does... some people just like to play the game and or paint the minis.

So why are you posting here then?

**Azreal13**

boyd wrote:
azreal13 wrote:

boyd wrote:

I think we can all agree the Internet is used for porn and complaining (sometimes combined). Every time someone leaks something an image, it's pages of complaints unless there are dedicated fanboys to actually hype something up. GW releases something, you get pages of people calling it crap and if someone likes it, they are a fanboy (except if you're commenting on PP then you're not because everyone knows they are wine and cheese to GWs beer and pretzels). You see it time after time - the entire Mantic line of models for example (exception being their goblins, GWs don't have the same noses). After a while, there is no reason to cater to the denizens online. Their opinions don't matter as much because no matter what happens their commentary is negative. Why cater to someone who won't buy from you to begin with. The constant negativity is why GW stopped hanging out on portent.net back in the day. People have been predicting they would go out of business and they are all unoriginal hacks since 1995-7. Now 15-20 years later, they are still here and still the 800 pound gorillas in the industry.

Yes there is some truth to GW not wanting to show the world their WIP but a couple of weeks wouldn't hurt their sales. To early and you risk cannibalizing existing kits as people wait to get the new models. Heck when I saw the greens for the third edition Eldar, I waited 18 months before I bought a single aspect warrior because the scorpions looked so much better and I wanted scorpions and banshees but didn't like the second edition models. If they telegraph their moves, they risk someone else beating them to the market.

Blatantly untrue, the general pattern with GW leaks is that the sky is indeed falling when the initial, blurry pics leak, but more often than not (Centurions being a recent example of not, I guess) once better pics become available, opinion normalises and while some continue to dislike there are far more "oh, not as bad as I thought" type posts.

I have no clue what your point about Mantic and PP are, either I'm missing your point or you've not expressed it that clearly.

Using my own inner 10 year old as a guide, GW are in a period where they don't appear to be producing quality concepts (I can't fault their kits from a technical viewpoint, I just haven't been a fan of much they've made recently) but I will ask if you would have waited 18 months for those Scorpions if they'd been bonk? I'm going to assume no, but the fact is, you did wait, and you did give GW your money ultimately. If they'd shown the Centurions kit that far out, they'd have been eaten alive by any number of superior third party alternatives.

While I'm sure it isn't entirely the reason, I wonder perhaps if an element of their current policy is the equivalent of getting a film into cinemas or a videogame into shops without opening it up to the critic community first, its a bad sign of the producers confidence in those products, and there may be, at least a partial, analogue with the BUY NOW! NEW! SHINY! release strategy.

The number or re-released models that look like crap compared to their 2nd edition counter part is few and far between. Usually when I see new models online, I expect to get them soon. Thing is I would probably have bought both but because I saw them I said I will wait as they should be out soon. after a while when you start to see more and more stuff show up online you keep thinking, I can hold out. It's the reason I have a Saim hann army. Lots of jet bikes, lots of guardians, lots of vipers, and tanks. Very little aspect warriors so I wasn't missing much.

Sure you could get the critics to opine but that wouldn't change much - we still have movies that get great reviews but are absolutely horrible at the box office Prometheus, Godzilla, Planet of the Apes (the remake), the Hulk, Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull (sorry all I can think of when I think of this is the South Park bit) and there are others. Some might have done well at the box office, I just recall hearing they didn't or I just thought the movie was bad. I would put Spider-Man 3 in that category but I don't think I've seen it or plan on seeing it.

I think you've misunderstood the tactic, producers dump stuff on the public without an appropriate window for criticism when they know its gak.

I'm not saying GW should allow critique to boost sales, I'm saying they dump stuff on the public because they're not confident in what they're producing and don't want negative press to hurt sales.

**Brother Weasel**

insaniak wrote:
Brother Weasel wrote:
whats to stop a larger non garage company from doing the same thing?

A lack of any serious point in doing so.

Sure, Bandi could probably put out not-Eldar faster than GW could. But I would seriously doubt that there would be any real benefit in them doing so. GW are a big fish in a small pond. I doubt they even register on Bandi's radar at all. The effort involved in rushing out a series of models to sell to a niche part of a niche market wouldn't even be worth considering.

I didn't say is was feasble, in fact i said the same thing you did, dosen't mean it's not somethign they think about... hell even someone like PP or whatnot could descide to make 3rd party parts (again, i doubt they would, but they could)

It matters because people get cranky when they buy a new codex and three weeks later a new one is released.
It matters because people spend a crapload of money on puting together an army, and then the following week discover that they have to redo a whack of it because it's suddenly been invalidated by a new release.
It matters because GW keep telling us it's all about increasing sales on release, and people are saying that they would be more likely to buy on release if they knew a kit was coming so they could save for it, and so the current policy just seems nuts.

the people who buy the codex the day before the announcment are in that same exact situation if it's announced 3 months ahead of time... if they put out a schedule for the next 3 years they will lose sales...
I spend a crapload of money making armies, i have uhhhh 4 and a half, i've been building one of them since 3rd edition... new stuff always comes out, new books always come out (unless it's the sisters) planning a list and starting it to get built to have an anouncement of a codex... oops better stop till the dex comes out in 3 months, or a year... GW doens' t care if you play in tournies and your lists are invalidated in your competitive environment... they actualy cater to me, I play, have fun and am willing to spend money on stuff that entertains me...

we will have to disagree on weather people knowing something is comming out vs it being on a shelf for 6 months is any diffrent, maybe i'm just to old to understand how or why someone would buy something if they saw a pick of it, then waited 6 months, vs buying it 6 months after it came out...

**boyd**

insaniak wrote:
boyd wrote:
I think we can all agree the

Heck when I saw the greens for the third edition Eldar, I waited 18 months before I bought a single aspect warrior because the scorpions looked so much better...

Are you sure you're thinking of the 3rd edition Scorpions...? The buck-tooth yoga dudes? With a model waving his sword in the air while simultaneously holding his own ankle?

If they telegraph their moves, they risk someone else beating them to the market.

Except they don't. Or the guy 'beating them to the market' is a tiny garage operation that really isn't going to have that big an impact on GW's sales. Again, Privateer and Battlefront aren't going to be releasing 28mm not-Aspect Warriors just because GW are working on them. And very few of the smaller companies are capable of producing anything of the same quality as GW are capable of when they try.

Yes that would be them. They still look so much better than the 2nd edition models. The current ones look more like karrandras though and I'm fine with that, I own some of them too. Scorpions were my go to aspect squad with the Saim hann craft world codex.

Sure but you can see GWs design influence in all of mantic's work (I'm sure some of there miniature team is ex GW though too).

With the larger companies, you're right, they have their thing going and it doesn't affect them as much because for the most part they have their core games too. It's more so the one off games - the specialist games that will rise from the dead like they always have. GW has little incentive to put these out because the risk reward is not there like it is for their core. Spoiling this can make it unsuccessful. Sure dread fleet was a disaster but I wouldn't know because I didn't play it. I was told the game wasn't worth it because the models couldn't be used elsewhere and the shop owner didn't think it would sell because of what he read online. So I didn't pick it up because nobody in my area would play it. Nobody in my shop was interested or even wanted to try it out. Same with space hulk - it was bought because of the terminators (im kicking myself for not buying the tiles from everyone who wanted to dump them after buying the game but then again I have only played a handful of times with my wife because she is the only person I have been able to convince to play it ( think it had something to do with taking her to see Twilight and the other sparkly vampire movies) and she hated playing as the terminators. Spoiling these projects can hurt them or prevent GW from doing another one.

**insaniak**

Brother Weasel wrote:
I didn't say is was feasble, in fact i said the same thing you did, dosen't mean it's not somethign they think about... hell even someone like PP or whatnot could descide to make 3rd party parts (again, i doubt they would, but they could)

If it's not actually feasible, basing the business direction of a multi-million dollar corporation on the possibiliy of it occuring seems just a teeeeeensy bit crazy, no?

the people who buy the codex the day before the announcment are in that same exact situation if it's announced 3 months ahead of time...

They're really not. Because the second person at least gets three months use out of that codex. The other guy gets none.

Sure, whenever you announce a new release that is replacing an old one, you're going to ruffle some feathers. That doesn't mean that some effort to minimise the impact of that won't be appreciated by your customers.

**Brother Weasel**

Peregrine wrote:

not evertone gives a crap one way or another what gw does... some people just like to play the game and or paint the minis.

So why are you posting here then?

because it's entertaining? does it make me a koolaid drinker because i don't have a problem with what GW does? I don't care what most people do, i Want to play my game and paint my minis (whatever game i'm playing is, and there are several) I doen't get slighted in the least when GW sends out legal letters to people, i do understand why others do, but i can have a diffrent point of view on it all without being a fan boy... when it comes to GW I care about what game i'm playing next and what minis i'm painting, if they make a crappy mini, i don't buy it... I"m not vested in weather wayland BOW or anyone else gets sued in any way. If gw sues the wrong person or does stuff that gets them out of business, i'll play the last version of the game with whatever codex i have, until my friends don't want to play anymore, then i'll play whatever else strkies my fancy (Malifaux and robotech right now)

But I can do all that while having a semi intelligent conversation with an opposed viewpoint.

**insaniak**

boyd wrote:
Sure but you can see GWs design influence in all of mantic's work (I'm sure some of there miniature team is ex GW though too).

Don't Mantic also have a fairly established history of missing release dates by now?

That would seem to somewhat lessen the fear of them rushing something out to beat GW to the punch, I would think...

. Spoiling this can make it unsuccessful. Sure dread fleet was a disaster but I wouldn't know because I didn't play it. Nobody in my shop was interested or even wanted to try it out.

Dreadfleet was a disaster because it wasn't marketed. GW allowed the internet to speculate on what the mystery game was going to be, and then when it was finally announced it was something that very few people were interested in. Instead of working on that by announcing it earlier and using their big, expensive, flashy website and big, glossy 'hobby' magazine to promote this upcoming game, they left it to the last minute, dropped it on stores and said 'Here you go'... and the thoroughly underwhelmed masses voted with their wallets.

Dreadfleet could have been a successful splash release. But GW didn't do their homework first, and got burnt.

Same with space hulk - it was bought because of the terminators (im kicking myself for not buying the tiles from everyone who wanted to dump them after buying the game but then again I have only played a handful of times with my wife because she is the only person I have been able to convince to play it ( think it had something to do with taking her to see Twilight and the other sparkly vampire movies) and she hated playing as the terminators. Spoiling these projects can hurt them or prevent GW from doing another one.

Spoiling Space Hulk wouldn't have hurt it in the slightest, because other than the botched marketting it was an example of GW doing it right. They re-released a game that people had been asking for, and they re-released it in a format that was just drop-dead gorgeous. Whether people were buying it just for the models or for the game, they were buying it. And they still would have bought it if they had known about it 3 months in advance.

And we know this because we did know about it 3 months in advance, despite GW trying to keep it quiet.

**Peregrine**

Brother Weasel wrote:
I didn't say is was feasble, in fact i said the same thing you did, dosen't mean it's not somethign they think about...

If GW are clinging to an idiotic "marketing" policy because they're paranoid about something that isn't feasible then they are incompetent idiots.

hell even someone like PP or whatnot could descide to make 3rd party parts (again, i doubt they would, but they could)

And we could have WWIII tomorrow and GW HQ could be incinerated by a nuke. Reasonable people don't worry about unlikely doomsday scenarios when making business plans.

the people who buy the codex the day before the announcment are in that same exact situation if it's announced 3 months ahead of time... if they put out a schedule for the next 3 years they will lose sales...

You're missing the fact that there's a good chance that someone who buys a codex the day before the announcement and then has to buy it again immediately is likely to say "screw this" and quit entirely. The proper way to handle this is to publish a release schedule and then schedule your production quantities appropriately so that you sell the last remaining stock of the old codex right before the new one is released. The potential to have to trash a few unsold books is a tiny problem compared to the potential gain in sales from having proper marketing.

And of course with model kits it's even easier since dedicated collectors and hobbyists looking for bits are going to buy "obsolete" kits even once their replacements are available, so that remaining stock will eventually sell if you wait long enough.

(And yes, people will continue to buy the old codex when a new one is on the way because they want to use the army now, not in six months.)

GW doens' t care if you play in tournies and your lists are invalidated in your competitive environment...

Which is why GW's management are incompetent idiots. Well-run companies like WOTC want to sell to everyone, which is why they make sure that competitive players are happy while also keeping the "kitchen table" players happy.

maybe i'm just to old to understand how or why someone would buy something if they saw a pick of it, then waited 6 months, vs buying it 6 months after it came out...

Because you don't just show a picture of it. How it would look if GW took a lesson from WOTC on how to successfully market a new release:

Six months from release day you post a teaser "X army is coming" picture/video clip (what GW does now, the day before release day).
Three months from release day you show a WIP in a White Dwarf article about the sculptor. Or even just silently leave it sitting in the background on their desk and let the dedicated fans start speculating about it.
A month from release day you show a picture of the final kit.
Two weeks from release day you publish a strategy article talking about all the cool things you can do with the new kit.
A week before release day you publish a "how we made this" article talking about how the fluff translated into the model.

See how you have a buildup of excitement with each step in the process making you want to see more until the kit is finally available? You get people thinking about the new stuff and imagining all the ways they could make use of it, instead of just dumping it on them out of nowhere. The only reason not to do it this way is if you don't have any confidence in your new product and you're afraid that people will decide not to buy it after all if they have enough time to think about it.

**Brother Weasel**

insaniak wrote:
Brother Weasel wrote:
I didn't say is was feasble, in fact i said the same thing you did, dosen't mean it's not somethign they think about... hell even someone like PP or whatnot could descide to make 3rd party parts (again, i doubt they would, but they could)

If it's not actually feasible, basing the business direction of a multi-million dollar corporation on the possibiliy of it occuring seems just a teeeeeensy bit crazy, no?

the people who buy the codex the day before the announcment are in that same exact situation if it's announced 3 months ahead of time...

They're really not. Because the second person at least gets three months use out of that codex. The other guy gets none.

Sure, whenever you announce a new release that is replacing an old one, you're going to ruffle some feathers. That doesn't mean that some effort to minimise the impact of that won't be appreciated by your customers.

I agree, maybe they think it's more feasble then we do, maybe they know somethign about it that we don't, and maybe they don't know what they are doing.

I think the impact (persoanly) is more minamle then people like to play out... how many people are buying entire armies a week or 2 before a new codex comes out? Some due, granted, but most people I see in the stores etc arnt' buying an army, they are adding units slowly... Would i like to know whats comming out, sure, why not, but it doesn't really effect how much stuff i'm going to buy (and yes i know there are people who play several companies, and thier budgets are relegated to i'll either buy this gw item or this pp item, depending what comes out... i get that, but unless buying that item only apeals to you before it comes out and you refuse to get it after, it'll be in store for many years.)

**insaniak**

Incidentally...

Brother Weasel wrote:maybe i'm just to old to understand how or why someone would buy something if they saw a pick of it, then waited 6 months, vs buying it 6 months after it came out...

The thing to remember here is that GW doesn't want you to wait 6 months after release to buy the kit. They want you to be so excited about the release that you rush out and buy it on release day.

What people are saying is that this would be more likely to work if they had advance notice of what was being released so that they could plan accordingly.

It's not an issue of when people want stuff. It's an issue of GW's stated reason for this policy not actually making any sort of logical sense.

**boyd**

insaniak wrote:
Brother Weasel wrote:

the people who buy the codex the day before the announcment are in that same exact situation if it's announced 3 months ahead of time...

They're really not. Because the second person at least gets three months use out of that codex. The other guy gets none.
.

I got burned by a game shop in Orlando, I stopped playing WHFB through most of my college career (women, booze, and frat took up more time). When I finally started easing my way back in (and convinced some of my frat brothers to play) one shop sold me the 6th edition rule book with 7th being released the next morning. I was told by the store owner it was the latest and greatest and I kept asking if it was the one that was going on sale the next day and he was stocking his GW on the shelf from his reorder and told me yes it was, I had nothing to worry about. When i got home I went online to read the reviews and noticed the cover art was off. Took it back and the guy laughed at me. Needless to say that they didn't get a dime of my business for nearly 9 years. It wasn't until earlier this last year with the Eldar release I bought anything from them and that was after ownership changed hands several times. Goodwill works both ways. I laughed because I go through an army a year between my fantasy, 40k, and Warmachine factions so its about $5-6,000 over that time frame not bad money but I'm not a big spender with one or two kits a month. The wife likes this hobby more than going to the bar and drinking our money.

**Azreal13**

Brother Weasel wrote:
Peregrine wrote:

not evertone gives a crap one way or another what gw does... some people just like to play the game and or paint the minis.

So why are you posting here then?

because it's entertaining? does it make me a koolaid drinker because i don't have a problem with what GW does? I don't care what most people do, i Want to play my game and paint my minis (whatever game i'm playing is, and there are several) I doen't get slighted in the least when GW sends out legal letters to people, i do understand why others do, but i can have a diffrent point of view on it all without being a fan boy... when it comes to GW I care about what game i'm playing next and what minis i'm painting, if they make a crappy mini, i don't buy it... I"m not vested in weather wayland BOW or anyone else gets sued in any way. If gw sues the wrong person or does stuff that gets them out of business, i'll play the last version of the game with whatever codex i have, until my friends don't want to play anymore, then i'll play whatever else strkies my fancy (Malifaux and robotech right now)

But I can do all that while having a semi intelligent conversation with an opposed viewpoint.

Slightly hyperbolic, given the subject, but relevant nonetheless...

**insaniak**

Brother Weasel wrote:
how many people are buying entire armies a week or 2 before a new codex comes out?

Under GW's preferred business model, anyone new to the hobby who walks into a GW store at that time.

.... i get that, but unless buying that item only apeals to you before it comes out and you refuse to get it after, it'll be in store for many years.)

See my previous post.

Again, the relevant point isn't about when people will want to buy stuff. It's about GW saying when they want people to buy stuff.

**Peregrine**

Brother Weasel wrote:
I agree, maybe they think it's more feasble then we do, maybe they know somethign about it that we don't, and maybe they don't know what they are doing.

Or their reasons have nothing to do with other companies beating them to the market. Which is what we already know, GW keeps everything secret because they're paranoid that allowing people to spend time thinking about their purchase will cost them too many impulse buys. They don't have the confidence in their product to do anything else.

Would i like to know whats comming out, sure, why not, but it doesn't really effect how much stuff i'm going to buy

But for many people it does. For example, FFG has previewed the Imperial Aces expansion months before its release day, and I've committed ~$50 to buying a couple copies of it. GW can release all the impulse buys they want, but it would be extremely difficult for them to convince me to buy anything that would interfere with my X-Wing purchase.

**Brother Weasel**

Peregrine wrote:
Brother Weasel wrote:
I didn't say is was feasble, in fact i said the same thing you did, dosen't mean it's not somethign they think about...

If GW are clinging to an idiotic "marketing" policy because they're paranoid about something that isn't feasible then they are incompetent idiots.

hell even someone like PP or whatnot could descide to make 3rd party parts (again, i doubt they would, but they could)

And we could have WWIII tomorrow and GW HQ could be incinerated by a nuke. Reasonable people don't worry about unlikely doomsday scenarios when making business plans.

i have no idea if this is why they don't do, it s could be as simple as, "we told new line we wouldn't release anything so we arn't" or as insaniak pointed out, they like surprise marketing.

You're missing the fact that there's a good chance that someone who buys a codex the day before the announcement and then has to buy it again immediately is likely to say "screw this" and quit entirely. The proper way to handle this is to publish a release schedule and then schedule your production quantities appropriately so that you sell the last remaining stock of the old codex right before the new one is released. The potential to have to trash a few unsold books is a tiny problem compared to the potential gain in sales from having proper marketing.

as opposed to the guy who buys the codex and the next day it's announced that there is a codex comming for them in 2 months? I just don't agree here... whenever they announce a new code someone is going to be pissed off and throw thier army on ebay

Which is why GW's management are incompetent idiots. Well-run companies like WOTC want to sell to everyone, which is why they make sure that competitive players are happy while also keeping the "kitchen table" players happy.

sure, sell to everyone, good idea, even wotc doens't sell to everyone, some things do better then others, GW (it seams) would rather not deal with the tourny scene, for whatever their reason is, they did it for years, they stopped... good or bad, that's just how it is.)

Because you don't just show a picture of it. How it would look if GW took a lesson from WOTC on how to successfully market a new release:

Six months from release day you post a teaser "X army is coming" picture/video clip (what GW does now, the day before release day).
Three months from release day you show a WIP in a White Dwarf article about the sculptor.
A month from release day you show a picture of the final kit.
Two weeks from release day you publish a strategy article talking about all the cool things you can do with the new kit.
A week before release day you publish a "how we made this" article talking about how the fluff translated into the model.

See how you have a buildup of excitement with each step in the process making you want to see more until the kit is finally available? You get people thinking about the new stuff and imagining all the ways they could make use of it, instead of just dumping it on them out of nowhere. The only reason not to do it this way is if you don't have any confidence in your new product and you're afraid that people will decide not to buy it after all if they have enough time to think about it.

I won't disagree that it would make it more interesting, you seem to think that just because i have opinions on why they do stuff, and am not bothered by how they do stuff, that i would do it the same way... I like the GW from 3rd edition, where we had previes in WD etc... but i'm not bothered by not knowing... I"m no fan of kirby and corprate runnings.. and i don't think it will continue to go that way forever, i think it will end up driving them into the ground or some fresh blood will take over and bring the company back to the company that everyone likes (but i think it will still cost a lot more then other companies)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:

Would i like to know whats comming out, sure, why not, but it doesn't really effect how much stuff i'm going to buy

But for many people it does. For example, FFG has previewed the Imperial Aces expansion months before its release day, and I've committed ~$50 to buying a couple copies of it. GW can release all the impulse buys they want, but it would be extremely difficult for them to convince me to buy anything that would interfere with my X-Wing purchase.

i just don't understand... maybe because my budget works diffrent.. if when imp aces came out i liked it i would buy it or save up for it...

(mind you it's the same reason i hate kickstarters, i want to know if the game/models are any good before buying things)

**Peregrine**

Brother Weasel wrote:
i have no idea if this is why they don't do, it s could be as simple as, "we told new line we wouldn't release anything so we arn't" or as insaniak pointed out, they like surprise marketing.

There's no need to speculate, GW states very clearly that they do this because they believe that surprise impulse buys are the best sales method. The fact that this is unbelievably stupid doesn't make it less true.

as opposed to the guy who buys the codex and the next day it's announced that there is a codex comming for them in 2 months? I just don't agree here... whenever they announce a new code someone is going to be pissed off and throw thier army on ebay

The person who finds out about a codex coming in two months (or longer) at least gets to use it for those two months, which they might be perfectly happy with if those two months include a tournament they wanted to take their new army to. And this only gets more likely the longer out the releases are announced.

sure, sell to everyone, good idea, even wotc doens't sell to everyone, some things do better then others, GW (it seams) would rather not deal with the tourny scene, for whatever their reason is, they did it for years, they stopped... good or bad, that's just how it is.)

The only thing preventing GW from selling 40k to tournament players is their own incompetence. They have deliberately thrown away a major market for no reason beyond their idiotic belief in selling to their "core market".

i just don't understand... maybe because my budget works diffrent.. if when imp aces came out i liked it i would buy it or save up for it...

Obviously your budget works differently. If I love an upcoming release I want it ASAP, which means I'm going to save up in advance so that I have the money ready on release day. Therefore companies that preview their upcoming releases well in advance are more likely to get my money.

**Brother Weasel**

Peregrine wrote:
Brother Weasel wrote:
i have no idea if this is why they don't do, it s could be as simple as, "we told new line we wouldn't release anything so we arn't" or as insaniak pointed out, they like surprise marketing.

There's no need to speculate, GW states very clearly that they do this because they believe that surprise impulse buys are the best sales method. The fact that this is unbelievably stupid doesn't make it less true.

as opposed to the guy who buys the codex and the next day it's announced that there is a codex comming for them in 2 months? I just don't agree here... whenever they announce a new code someone is going to be pissed off and throw thier army on ebay

The person who finds out about a codex coming in two months (or longer) at least gets to use it for those two months, which they might be perfectly happy with if those two months include a tournament they wanted to take their new army to. And this only gets more likely the longer out the releases are announced.

sure, sell to everyone, good idea, even wotc doens't sell to everyone, some things do better then others, GW (it seams) would rather not deal with the tourny scene, for whatever their reason is, they did it for years, they stopped... good or bad, that's just how it is.)

The only thing preventing GW from selling 40k to tournament players is their own incompetence. They have deliberately thrown away a major market for no reason beyond their idiotic belief in selling to their "core market".

i just don't understand... maybe because my budget works diffrent.. if when imp aces came out i liked it i would buy it or save up for it...

Obviously your budget works differently. If I love an upcoming release I want it ASAP, which means I'm going to save up in advance so that I have the money ready on release day. Therefore companies that preview their upcoming releases well in advance are more likely to get my money.

i'm just offering a differing veiwpoint from someone who isn't gonzo over what GW does one way or another... Now someone telll me when the sisters are cmming HA

**Bull0**

azreal13 wrote:
Bull0 wrote:
azreal13 wrote:
Bull0 wrote:
PsychoticStorm wrote:
And no the "they could not sign the contract" does not hold ground, a contract should never be abusive and GWs contracts are about as abusive as it can get.

Sorry, but the point still stands, nobody's forced to trade with Games Workshop.

This argument is facile in the extreme.

You really suggest that any company that has built itself up over years or decades due, in part, to selling products from the largest commercial entity in the industry, can simply eliminate that element from their business because said entity has paranoid delusions and changes your relationship overnight?

Sure, a new company could base its financial projections and viability studies off information that didn't include GW, but a going concern doesn't have that freedom, certainly not in the short term, even if they could divorce themselves in the medium to long term.

GW have already precipitated the death of Maelstrom (even if mistakes were made by MG that compounded the situation) through exactly this sort of shenanigans, and will continue to pull this sort of nonsense for as long as people stand for it.

Honestly? That's business. Until they're in violation of law (which they may well be! These contracts and the associated practices, such as the story about having frank planning discussions only to renew contracts with clauses that preclude those discussions, sound absolutely horrendous), it's on the retailers not to sign up, or not to renew if the new contracts are in their view unfair, or to seek relevant legal advice. If enough of them do it, that's GW blown, and they change tack. Instead, they're signing anyway, and complaining on the internet when the contracts are enforced, hoping that customers will "vote with their wallets" (how does not buying the independent retailers' stock help their cause, again?) and create the change they want to see but aren't able to create themselves. As is probably clear I don't really get it. I'm happy to be enlightened but so far haven't seen anything other than some moralising.

It really isn't business. While there is an element which appear ready to crawl over the corpse of their grandmother to make an extra few pennies in the pound, the vast majority conduct themselves in a far more affable manner. Not out of the goodness of their hearts, but because any business positioned in the manufacturing, distribution or wholesale sector needs other businesses to buy its product in order to survive.

Now, GW are an exception to the standard model in that they have direct online and physical presences, which inevitably leads to some conflict of interests. This isn't a unique situation, but it is unusual. I do have fairly extensive experience in an industry where independent retailers compete directly in the marketplace with their suppliers direct channels, but in 12 years I've encountered nothing like the control that GW are trying to exert on their Indy partners.

It would be far more sensible to acknowledge that the independent channel appeals to, and reaches, a different sector of the customer base than their own stores, and adjust their offering through that channel accordingly, but no, they'd apparently beat them into submission or extinction than utilise them to their own advantage.

I've also run my own business where I made a decision to sign up to a franchise, because, in theory at least, it allowed me to offer a wider range of product, make a greater margin on my sales and provided a greater degree of admin support behind the scenes. On the surface, a no brainer decision, but as time went by, the franchise agreement was amended, reducing my freedoms to run my business as I saw fit while leaving me with all the financial risk. Most of these changes were within the existing agreement's remit, and the couple that required me to re-sign or terminate, well, it isn't as simple as "just say no" when your income and your ability to service your customer base is on the line, believe me. Any of this sound familiar?

Just because something is legal doesn't make it moral or ethical, and that is the real debate here (or though, as you rightly mention, there may be a suggestion it isn't even legal) and if people find it distasteful, well, I'm not surprised.

As for voting with their wallets? I'm sure most Indys wouldn't care if their GW stock started gathering dust, as long as their income was maintained from other sources, my understanding from speaking to most Indy retailers is that GW is considered a necessary evil by most, and have been a bear to deal with for years. If they were gaining enough sales from other systems and manufacturers that they could afford to drop or de-emphasise GW, I suspect many would do it with a sigh of relief.

While the retailers may eventually get their gak together and posse up, in the meantime, anyone who finds this sort of behaviour distasteful needs to take responsibility and withold their cash from GW. If enough share this view, then change will happen, if we really are just an insignificant minority shouting on the Internet, then that's capitalism.

One things for sure, if enough people really do say "no, I will not endorse this behaviour by rewarding you with my business" GW won't be able to bully, manipulate or litigate their way out of it.

I'm not pretending I have broad experience of the miniature wargaming industry - obviously I don't - but when I say it's just business, I mean that it isn't personal and all the moaning about bullying and unethical practices aren't even slightly relevant unless it can be shown that to behave in a "better" way would make GW more money. Because pursuing profit is what they're all about. I'm yet to see any argument other than that what they're doing is mean.

I also liked how you reiterate my own point back to me about how if enough people don't kowtow to GW's practices, that's GW blown, as if I hadn't already said that.

**Azreal13**

It wasn't back to you, it was more of a general point, and believe me, you don't come anywhere near close having the copyright on that train of thought.

I happen to believe that behaving in a more open and inclusive manner would net GW more money, as a substantial amount of the negativity directed towards them by individuals is down to their actions as much as to their products and pricing.

I would love to be able to love GW, but knowing what I know, and seeing it from the perspective I do, I just can't. I also know from posting on here and talking to wargaming friends in real life, I'm not alone.

If that open and inclusive attitude extended to retail partners too, well, tell me that wouldn't be a good thing. If you've not seen it, check out rich1231's reply to me on pg7 of this thread. If you're not aware he runs Wayland Games, and as such is at the heart of this particular shitstorm, and is probably responsible for shifting more GW product than anyone outside of GW's themselves. Read between the lines and tell me that his attitude towards GW is what you would want from one of your biggest trade customers if you were in any way concerned with a healthy, long term relationship?

It is business yes, it is just bad, short sighted, ignorant business and yet another event which will contribute to the slow erosion of GW's market share over the coming years, all in favour of the somewhat misguided notion that the harder they make it for the customer to buy from elsewhere, the more they will buy from them directly.

**Bull0**

If you're right, then we'll know fairly soon, because what they're doing would represent a *death spiral*. As it stands I don't believe even 1% of their customers read forums or are thus aware of the dodgy goings-on with trade accounts, or have put the pieces together enough to be mad about it.

**Azreal13**

azreal13 wrote:While the retailers may eventually get their gak together and posse up, in the meantime, anyone who finds this sort of behaviour distasteful needs to take responsibility and withold their cash from GW. If enough share this view, then change will happen, if we really are just an insignificant minority shouting on the Internet, then that's capitalism.

Bull0 wrote:If you're right, then we'll know fairly soon, because what they're doing would represent a *death spiral*. As it stands I don't believe even 1% of their customers read forums or are thus aware of the dodgy goings-on with trade accounts, or have put the pieces together enough to be mad about it.

Now who's quoting who back to whom?

**Bull0**

azreal13 wrote:
azreal13 wrote:While the retailers may eventually get their gak together and posse up, in the meantime, anyone who finds this sort of behaviour distasteful needs to take responsibility and withold their cash from GW. If enough share this view, then change will happen, if we really are just an insignificant minority shouting on the Internet, then that's capitalism.

Bull0 wrote:If you're right, then we'll know fairly soon, because what they're doing would represent a *death spiral*. As it stands I don't believe even 1% of their customers read forums or are thus aware of the dodgy goings-on with trade accounts, or have put the pieces together enough to be mad about it.

Now who's quoting who back to whom?

That's kind of reframing. We were discussing whether or not GW could stand to gain more money from behaving in a manner which you find more morally acceptable. I said that they probably don't, because most of their customers aren't even aware that it's going on.

**Herzlos**

Peregrine wrote:

as opposed to the guy who buys the codex and the next day it's announced that there is a codex comming for them in 2 months? I just don't agree here... whenever they announce a new code someone is going to be pissed off and throw thier army on ebay

The person who finds out about a codex coming in two months (or longer) at least gets to use it for those two months, which they might be perfectly happy with if those two months include a tournament they wanted to take their new army to. And this only gets more likely the longer out the releases are announced.

It also gives them 2 months to save up for the new one, and prevents them feeling as shafted.

If I bought a codex (which isn't cheap these days) and it was invalid the day after, there's no way I'd be buying the new one right away. Whereas I bought into 5th Ed 40K about 10 months before 6th Ed was dropping, because I was happy with the amount of use I'd get out of it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

Besides the known issues with 3rd parties trying to get models to market before GW releases them... Apple can tell you the 'impulse buy' secrecy model works for them. You literally don't know there is a new device Wednesday and on Friday it is in stores ready to buy... IF YOU GET THERE IN TIME GOGOGOGO IPHONE!

Except Apple products are the worst kept secrets in the industry; they release them pretty regularly (1+ new phone model every year at the same time), and invite the press to announcements months in advance (they are releasing something else at the end of this month), and the new items never invalidate the old ones.

The apart from the completely new stuff, it's all just revisions (faster, bigger, better). But to say no-ones knows about an apple product 2 days before it launches is disingenuous.

Whereas with GW, they sell a range of stuff so you can't always predict what's going (except for new 40K/WHF editions), and unless i'ts new you've no idea if whatever you're buying today will still be valid in a weeks time. At least most models can still be used unless they disappear from the codex though.

**Zweischneid**

Herzlos wrote:

Except Apple products are the worst kept secrets in the industry; they release them pretty regularly (1+ new phone model every year at the same time), and invite the press to announcements months in advance (they are releasing something else at the end of this month), and the new items never invalidate the old ones..

For what it's worth, GW releases are the worst kept secret in the industry too.

And of course Apple invalidates their older stuff. The nerd-rage when Apple (without any pre-launch info) gave away the "iPod" for "free" with every single one of their (back then) new "iPhones" was epic, as well as one of the greatest (self-)cannibalizations of successful product line in the last 20 years or so.

**Pacific**

I thought a particular low point was the feature on AoBR miniatures, and a double page spread on the boxset, in White Dwarf a month before the release of 6th edition. You have to think was an attempt to help clear out the last of that stock.

Obviously if you're a serious fan then you would have known the new edition was right around the corner, but I wonder how many casual buyers (parents etc.) got caught out by that one.